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Modern Men (Warning...long)

47K views 437 replies 38 participants last post by  Deejo 
#1 ·
I've been on marriage sites like this one for years trying to figure out what was wrong with my marriage. Over the last 13 years the relationship dynamic has changed between my wife and I.

I did everything that is considered the gold standard to try to put us back on the right course. I helped with the cleaning, I cooked, I did dishes, helped with the laundry, prepared surprise romantic dinners, teased her, left love notes, everything everyone suggests to try to "get her in the mood".

Nothing worked. My wife never really flat out rejected me much. Mostly she just ignored my advances, which, to be honest, was worse than straight rejections. I did have my share of rejection but more often than not she would just ignore me.

I blamed her for a lot of the problems. It was her fault I was our sex life sucked, it was her fault I wasn't happy.

Then I started stumbling across posts from different men on the forums I had visited. People like MEM, BigBadWolf, and others. The things they said seemed alien to me at the time.

When I was growing up, my mother was the authority figure in the home. My dad was a passive, hard working, honest man who never really made a decision of his own in his life. At times though, he held a lot of anger. He was passive-aggressive, but not often. Never abusive, and always terrified of making my mother angry. I would always hear him telling his friends and co-workers, "I can't do that, it would upset my wife." To me, this was normal. And it was, with all my male relatives. Their wives ran the house, the husbands brought home the money in most cases.

To get to the point, most of the men in my family, circle of friends, and co-workers were this exact same way...and so was I.

From the time I was a boy, I was taught to treat women like princesses. To put them on a pedestal. I was taught to treat my sister different than I would treat my brother. Taking queues from my male role models, I learned that the way to make a woman deliriously happy was to give in to her every whim. To do everything she asked, even if I it was the last thing I wanted to do, because it made them happy. I was that, and I saw it through example. This "education" translated to others as well. If anyone would ask me for help, I was there. I would do anything for anyone, and I did.

From reading posts from people like MEM and BBW, I couldn't quite grasp what they were saying. I mean, I did, but it didn't make any sense. So, I started reading more. Articles on male dominance, etc. Things started to make sense, but dominance as it was being explained sounded like I would just be another a-hole. There was a balance that was missing.

I eventually noticed quite a few threads around the net referring to a book called "No More Mr. Nice Guy". I bought it and read it and in that book I found the balance I was thought was missing.

My problem was the true lack of a MALE role model in growing up. There were few MEN that I could have looked to. My maternal Grandfather was the only on.

You, I learned the problem with most modern men (the last two or three generations) is that we have, for the most part, lost how to actually be men.

We have no boundaries to what type of behaviors are unacceptable to us. We put up with nagging, *****ing, public scolding, and a whole laundry list of other things. Why? Because we don't have the balls to draw the line in fear of "angering the wife". We have no regard for our OWN happiness, and therefore, most of us are miserable in relationships.

We do everything for our wives and nothing for ourselves. We say things like, "Honey, I'd really like to have a new XXXX. Can I buy one please?" Exactly like we did when we were little boys. I don't know what woman finds actions such as this attractive.

The other thing that women I've talked to find irritating and unattractive is the old, "I don't care, whatever you want." This ranges from wanting input on paint colors for the house to where to go for dinner. We have an opinion, why are we afraid to express it? This example, I believe, is a woman offering her man an opportunity to lead. Women WILL test us to see if we are willing to 1) lead 2) protect and 3) provide.

I will admit, through almost all of my marriage, I was a solid provider, but that was it. I gave up all my friends and hobbies, for my wife. This always gnawed at me, but I was "taught" this was the way things were.

After looking at all the married men around me and having my eyes opened, I saw it was the way things were, but not the way things "should" be. All the things I was expected to give up, and that my wife didn't approve of, she had, and I didn't.

Where I asked permission to buy something, she just bought it. Where I asked permission to go out, she just told me and went.

Slowly, over time, she lost all sexual interest in me, but she was happy with the life I provide her and she was ok with things the way they were. After finally figuring myself out, and finally understanding what she really wanted from me, I started changing. So far, it has been tough for us both. She resists because I'm upsetting her apple cart. I'm taking her out of her comfort zone, but I finally realized that was NOT the life I wanted to lead. I WILL not lead that life, even if it means parting ways.

It was an eye opening day when I realized all the men I was surrounded by, myself included, had no balls. We were/are AFRAID of our wives and would not stand up for ourselves for anything. We are getting exactly the life we deserve.

Oddly enough, I notice it everywhere now and it is a constant reminder to keep working on myself. If you want to know what I'm talking about, watch any of the husband / wife type sitcoms on TV.

I learned that my wife can NOT make me happy, only I can. My wife is there kind of like a polish, to make that happiness just that more beautiful to experience. We are far from there, and may not get there, but I'm now willing to pursue my happiness, with or without her.

Anyway, I see a lot of the same traits from most of the men that post here who have the same problems I'm trying to correct now. I'm having some success, but its going to be a long road.

We, as men, have to relearn how to be men.
 
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#81 ·
If an uneducated woman is abused or treated poorly, she is not as likely to divorce as a woman who knows she can stand on her own.

Increased divorce rates caused by "educated women" can be viewed as both a blessing and a curse when compared to developing nations, or to the "ideals" of our grandparents and older generations. Women in our society have more choices and are not forced to tolerate bad situations in order to keep a roof over their heads.
 
#82 ·
Exactly. That is why the divorce rate is rising fast and families are breaking apart. There was a survey in 1 country where they said a lot of abused women do not leave their husbands mostly because they have no place else to go. And those loser "professors" said that it's a good thing in a way, otherwise there would be no families left in the society. So sad.

Educated women need to chill a little and stop competing so much with men and well castrating them in a sense. I have a bachelor's degree and I would love to get a master's one day, but it's not going to change the fact that I believe "modern" men need to get their balls back and be more dominant.

If you're going to be switching roles, women might as well start producing more testosterone and men estrogen, why not? Am I going to get bashed for saying that? lol
 
#84 ·
Again, I am suggesting a compromise here:

Delay education of women until later.

Let me ask TheMrs and other educated women. . .after paying $100,000 for college, do you see any compelling reason that your education couldn't have been delayed until let's say you were age 40, especially since women are living to age 80 and beyond now?

When we, as a society, need young women in the home at the age of 18 to 35, to be the steward of the home, to be the family nutritionist and combat childhood obesity on the frontline, is there any compelling reason as society to send women off to college to compete with men? Or could they at least just pick up a course here and there?

Isn't entirely workable that the "female body of knowledge" be kept among the older mothers and grandmothers vs. like how men do it - spread it out equally?

No one with any brain would now dispute that women can just about do anything men can do occupationally (and often better and cheaper). The question is. . .even though they "can", should a young lady do anything occupationally?

Is that the best deployment of human capital?
 
#87 ·
Your theory is flawed only because there are many career paths that women go into more frequently than men like nursing and teaching. We can't really delay the education of nurses and teachers until after their childbearing years. Nurses are already getting older and older by the year. We need a young workforce to replace them as they retire and I doubt men are going to pick up the slack in those areas.

Add to that there are a lot of careers that men generally occupied that do not need a college degree like a mechanic or plumber. Of course they do need training in those areas, but colleges in this day and age are full of women. They don't cater to the needs of men or the careers most men are interested in.

I would have had no problem delaying my education if I could have married a man who was capable of taking care of me with just the one income. Unfortunately, the standard of living in this country mostly requires two incomes just to stay afloat.
 
#86 ·
Well, you both hit upon my situation - my wife certainly wasn't abused (emotionally or physically). I was the "nice guy", a former "Modern Man", and she was "just unhappy", so even though I left her, let's face it - she did all she could to drive me out and successfully at that, by being "educated and difficult."

She figured she has better choices.

I wish her luck in her quest.
 
#89 · (Edited)
The psychological manipulation of prostitutes using fear, physical abuse, and financial control, coupled with sexual abuse, drug addiction is so far away from discussing male and female marital roles as possible.

Healthy people generally do not want to be beaten. Those that protect their abusers are trying to survive.
 
#92 ·
Please avoid shaming tactics.

Honestly the arrogance on this forum is sometimes shocking.

"Healthy people" also want to enjoy sexually exciting relationships.

If you doubt there is the powerful sexual compulsion to a prostitutes devotion to her pimp, then I suggest you talk to a few.

The psychological manipulation of prostitutes using fear, physical abuse, and financial control, coupled with sexual abuse, drug addiction is so far away from discussing male and female martial roles as possible.

Healthy people generally do not want to be beaten. Those that protect their abusers are trying to survive.
 
#90 ·
BBW,

I agree with your assessment of our "base tendencies" (as a generalization).

I think in the context of marriage though, you have to surrender some of your base tendencies as a man or woman because "marriage" is a civilized institution so while you don't think these arguments/discussion are productive, I think they are for finding that balance between our base tendencies and how we can be civil and "sustainable" as a society.

Otherwise, all (most?) men would be polygamous and dominating women much in my Emperor fantasy up there and acting uncivil (treating wife like a prostitute as per your example). In this, the "nice guy" does have some adaptable traits. Without the "nice guy", without "Good Kirk", you can't run the Enterprise either as it just become chaos.
 
#91 ·
Your theory is flawed only because there are many career paths that women go into more frequently than men like nursing and teaching.
Are you saying what your Emperor decreed was flawed? :)

Yes, the healthcare force is aging in the traditional female roles like nursing.

The nice thing about nursing and teaching is they are jobs you can have with a family so those are exceptions.

Doctors, lawyers, accountants - Me Man. You Woman.

No women allowed, except after 40.

:)

Welcome to the Men's Clubhouse. Next question.
 
#94 ·
Why delay it until you're 40 if you can be finished when you're in your mid 20s? Personally I got married after I graduated and I would not wait until I was 40 to do so.
Because society needs your ovaries, and homemaking skills, which requires multi-tasking, which men can't do, while you were off studying beer, botany, and Beowulf at college. :)

Kids need a nutritionist/cook and the rampant childhood obesity is proof.

That's why.

Next question. ;)
 
#96 ·
Well, of course you are confused. You are a woman in the Men's Clubhouse, LOL.

No, what I mean is society has lost fulltime mothers for reasons way beyond current Modern Woman's control.

With the loss of fulltime mothers and the rise of "quick foods", our kids have suffered nutritionally.

We need young women to get back in the home and set things straight. I know I worry about that as a single, divorced father.

Which is why I am taking cooking classes.

So I can meet a woman who knows how to cook :) (you didn't think I was actually there to learn how to cook, did you?), a hot Italian woman with a pretty smile, with a first name like Rachel, or a cute Chinese woman perhaps. I like Chinese food and it can be healthy. Or maybe Kelly can cook too. . .

What are my kids supposed to eat the rest of their childhood? Hotdogs and Tombstone pizza?
 
#98 ·
See the thing is a woman can't be both 100% devoted to being a mother and wife and at the same time being a career woman. She needs to choose either frozen foods and career now, or healthy food and career later. I would choose healthy food=healthy kids lol I think I got what you meant.
 
#97 ·
Now I have a university degree, then got married, had a baby, now I'm getting divorced. But my initial goal was to get a degree, get married, have a baby, raise her until she was at least in primary school and then pursue a career. Is that good enough? That would make me over 30...
 
#99 ·
Wellll. . .we are both being civil and joking here (and I thank you for keeping the tone like that). . .but yes, I don't think we as a society can "have our cake and eat it too."

Yes, some women pull it off - become edubacated, get married, have babies, have careers, have well-adjusted, healthy children. . .and happy marriages.

Statistics seem to side with me though on this on what's really happening out there rather than what's happening on TV.
 
#100 ·
As a recovering Nice Guy, it isn't only about struggling in your marriage. Its also about how you interact with your children, your boss, your co-workers - and most importantly, how you view yourself. I also believe that most of the principles regarding how to recover from being a "nice guy" can also be applied to women who are putting the needs of others ahead of their own.

I still believe that it is as much about personality as it is gender roles. An educated woman with a dominant personality can be an excellent fit for an educated "nice guy." Relationships can only sustain one dominant personality type - whether its male or female. Two stubborn, strong-willed people will not likely make life-long companions.

I also struggle with much of this because I have two young daughters. I want them to KNOW that they are truly EQUAL to men, but I also want them to know that there is great pride to be had in being a faithful wife and loving mother.
 
#102 ·
I also struggle with much of this because I have two young daughters. I want them to KNOW that they are truly EQUAL to men, but I also want them to know that there is great pride to be had in being a faithful wife and loving mother.

I feel equal to men. I just know men and women aren't the same. I think men and women are equal, we just have different strengths and weaknesses.
 
#101 ·
They aren't "equal to men", but I'd like to think they are "equitable" in abilities and skill and you would teach them that as a recovering nice guy.

To me, equal means the same.

2 + 2 = 4 ( in a base 10 numeric system )

To me, to say

man = woman

is illogical and I think for about 30 years nobody has had the testosterone to stand up and say how ridiculous Gloria Steinham's mathmatical theories are.
 
#104 ·
Well, if we had a pi$$ing contest - for distance - yes - I would win every time.

Do you / we / the fine readers of this board truly think that men have superior intellect or are better decision makers?

Or is it simply because women make the breast milk and have the babies that leaves them with an "equitable" 49% of the vote within a "healthy" marriage?
 
#105 ·
No, I do not feel my husband has superior intellect or is a better decision maker than me. I just feel like his ego is more fragile than mine and he needs to be in charge more than I do. I don't desire to be in charge, but he does. It's like a need for him, but it's not a need for me. In fact, I would prefer I don't have to be in charge.

I will tell my husband how I feel. I do get a vote, but I let him have the final decision. It makes sense to me because there are only two of us and somebody has to have the final say or else nothing would get done.
 
#107 ·
I feel equal to men. I just know men and women aren't the same. I think men and women are equal, we just have different strengths and weaknesses.
You have now touched upon what I mean with equitable vs. equal.
 
#109 ·
Cherrypie,

We're equal as citizens, as human beings, we all have equal rights and such but we are not the same. We each have our roles to "play".
There ya go, Cherrypie.

Sergeant-at-Arms! Fetch me a Honoray Mens' Clubhouse membership - she can be a "little sister".

She knows her place :)
 
#113 ·
Do we truly think that men have superior intellect or are better decision makers?

Or is it simply because women make the breast milk and have the babies that leaves them with an "equitable" 49% of the vote within a "healthy" marriage?
 
#124 ·
The impression that I've gotten is that BBW and MEM have great relationships with their wives. I'm just not convinced that what works for them will work for everyone else.

Deejo - now you have me wondering - if dom marries sub, nice marries mean, who do the friggin' idiots marry?

And themrs and cherrypie - why am I starting to picture George Jefferson, Ralph Kramden (?sp?), (Everybody Loves) Raymond or most of the TV husbands who think they are in control - until the end of the episode when the wife has to swoop in and teach them the lesson of the day?

You're saying you want want Ward Cleaver, but are you really willing to be June and wear the pearls while you cook dinner and we sit back and read the paper?

And please, no jokes about being too hard on the beaver...
 
#127 ·
Deejo - now you have me wondering - if dom marries sub, nice marries mean, who do the friggin' idiots marry?
I have thought about this a great deal, and it seems clear that most friggin idiots marry Yankees fans.

Oh ... and you left out accuracy. We can pi$$ farther, and with better accuracy. We can write our names in the snow ...
 
#132 ·
Yes - I know. I realize I was taking your words out of context. It just played too well into my "manipulation" idea.

TV shows really did change sometime - maybe early 80s. Used to be the husband was a strong man who was in charge. Now he's usually the lovable oaf who has to hope that his wife or kids come along to bail him out of trouble.
 
#135 ·
Maybe we need more stay at home dads?
Sergeant-At-Arms!

Please escort this "niceguy" out the door of the Men's Clubhouse and don't let him back in for a week while he ponders what he just wrote. :)
 
#142 ·
I'm actually a double agent! but shh ;)

No I am not submissive in the sense that I will obey every word my husband says. And I'm also not manipulative, if anything my mother in law tried to teach me to be just that and control my husband and I refused so they started to dislike me.

I was raised in a house where my mother NEVER not even for a second worked, she was home raising us and my dad was out providing for us. He NEVER did any kind of housework so I see it as being normal when the man doesn't do house chores. I also see it as ok if he helps the woman, not replaces her but helps her, gives her a hand if she needs him to. I wouldn't ever be turned on if my husband put on rubber gloves and washed dishes or scrubbed the toilet.

Oh just please read MEM and BBW's posts and you'll know what I mean.
 
#137 ·
Talk about sitcoms, this reminds me of an old Family Ties episode when Alex Keaten played by Michael J. Fox walks into his little brother's daycare center.

He is playing in the kitchen and asks his brother: "What are you doing?"

The little brother answers: "Taking care of the house and changing the baby."

Alex then asks, "Where is your wife?"

The little brother answers matter-of-factly: "She's at work."

Alex scoops him up and runs out the daycare center: "We are outta here!!!"

LOL.
 
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