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Modern Men (Warning...long)

47K views 437 replies 38 participants last post by  Deejo 
#1 ·
I've been on marriage sites like this one for years trying to figure out what was wrong with my marriage. Over the last 13 years the relationship dynamic has changed between my wife and I.

I did everything that is considered the gold standard to try to put us back on the right course. I helped with the cleaning, I cooked, I did dishes, helped with the laundry, prepared surprise romantic dinners, teased her, left love notes, everything everyone suggests to try to "get her in the mood".

Nothing worked. My wife never really flat out rejected me much. Mostly she just ignored my advances, which, to be honest, was worse than straight rejections. I did have my share of rejection but more often than not she would just ignore me.

I blamed her for a lot of the problems. It was her fault I was our sex life sucked, it was her fault I wasn't happy.

Then I started stumbling across posts from different men on the forums I had visited. People like MEM, BigBadWolf, and others. The things they said seemed alien to me at the time.

When I was growing up, my mother was the authority figure in the home. My dad was a passive, hard working, honest man who never really made a decision of his own in his life. At times though, he held a lot of anger. He was passive-aggressive, but not often. Never abusive, and always terrified of making my mother angry. I would always hear him telling his friends and co-workers, "I can't do that, it would upset my wife." To me, this was normal. And it was, with all my male relatives. Their wives ran the house, the husbands brought home the money in most cases.

To get to the point, most of the men in my family, circle of friends, and co-workers were this exact same way...and so was I.

From the time I was a boy, I was taught to treat women like princesses. To put them on a pedestal. I was taught to treat my sister different than I would treat my brother. Taking queues from my male role models, I learned that the way to make a woman deliriously happy was to give in to her every whim. To do everything she asked, even if I it was the last thing I wanted to do, because it made them happy. I was that, and I saw it through example. This "education" translated to others as well. If anyone would ask me for help, I was there. I would do anything for anyone, and I did.

From reading posts from people like MEM and BBW, I couldn't quite grasp what they were saying. I mean, I did, but it didn't make any sense. So, I started reading more. Articles on male dominance, etc. Things started to make sense, but dominance as it was being explained sounded like I would just be another a-hole. There was a balance that was missing.

I eventually noticed quite a few threads around the net referring to a book called "No More Mr. Nice Guy". I bought it and read it and in that book I found the balance I was thought was missing.

My problem was the true lack of a MALE role model in growing up. There were few MEN that I could have looked to. My maternal Grandfather was the only on.

You, I learned the problem with most modern men (the last two or three generations) is that we have, for the most part, lost how to actually be men.

We have no boundaries to what type of behaviors are unacceptable to us. We put up with nagging, *****ing, public scolding, and a whole laundry list of other things. Why? Because we don't have the balls to draw the line in fear of "angering the wife". We have no regard for our OWN happiness, and therefore, most of us are miserable in relationships.

We do everything for our wives and nothing for ourselves. We say things like, "Honey, I'd really like to have a new XXXX. Can I buy one please?" Exactly like we did when we were little boys. I don't know what woman finds actions such as this attractive.

The other thing that women I've talked to find irritating and unattractive is the old, "I don't care, whatever you want." This ranges from wanting input on paint colors for the house to where to go for dinner. We have an opinion, why are we afraid to express it? This example, I believe, is a woman offering her man an opportunity to lead. Women WILL test us to see if we are willing to 1) lead 2) protect and 3) provide.

I will admit, through almost all of my marriage, I was a solid provider, but that was it. I gave up all my friends and hobbies, for my wife. This always gnawed at me, but I was "taught" this was the way things were.

After looking at all the married men around me and having my eyes opened, I saw it was the way things were, but not the way things "should" be. All the things I was expected to give up, and that my wife didn't approve of, she had, and I didn't.

Where I asked permission to buy something, she just bought it. Where I asked permission to go out, she just told me and went.

Slowly, over time, she lost all sexual interest in me, but she was happy with the life I provide her and she was ok with things the way they were. After finally figuring myself out, and finally understanding what she really wanted from me, I started changing. So far, it has been tough for us both. She resists because I'm upsetting her apple cart. I'm taking her out of her comfort zone, but I finally realized that was NOT the life I wanted to lead. I WILL not lead that life, even if it means parting ways.

It was an eye opening day when I realized all the men I was surrounded by, myself included, had no balls. We were/are AFRAID of our wives and would not stand up for ourselves for anything. We are getting exactly the life we deserve.

Oddly enough, I notice it everywhere now and it is a constant reminder to keep working on myself. If you want to know what I'm talking about, watch any of the husband / wife type sitcoms on TV.

I learned that my wife can NOT make me happy, only I can. My wife is there kind of like a polish, to make that happiness just that more beautiful to experience. We are far from there, and may not get there, but I'm now willing to pursue my happiness, with or without her.

Anyway, I see a lot of the same traits from most of the men that post here who have the same problems I'm trying to correct now. I'm having some success, but its going to be a long road.

We, as men, have to relearn how to be men.
 
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#178 ·
Please remember, our husbands are not perfect human beings. They make mistakes. If they make mistakes, we shouldn't sit there complain and complain. Say if he has lost money from investing, your complaining won't help him feel better, your blaming him won't get the money back. Let go of the past, he does need to know he had made a mistake, learn from the mistake he made, and avoid making the same mistake again. We have to be forgiving, since mistakes will sure happen in our lives!!!
 
#180 ·
Yeah well, wives aren't perfect either. Sometimes it's hard to keep your mouth shut once someone has made mistake after mistake, especially because the mistakes effect your life (and the lives of the children) just as much!

I agree that "I told you so" is never really productive, but sometimes people need to vent about how the situation has been f*ed up by this mistake. I mean, it's my life too.
 
#181 ·
MEM, BBW love their wives. They respect their wives. I feel my husband is the same as them, my husband agrees with MEM and BBW, my husband likes them. He doesn't come here and speak out his opinion. As his wife, I know how much love I get from him. The way he treats me is just loving and considerate, I don't ask more from him. He satisfies all my needs. Has anyone here seeing me complaining?
 
#183 ·
TheMrs:

Good post and thank you for your share.

In my ending marriage, I was not allowed to make mistakes. When I made a mistake, my stb-x had a definite way of making me feel demeaned and like a loser.

I am still recovering from that natural sense of self-esteem a woman can so easily rob from a man, if she exercises that power.

I'll tell you - bedding another woman really helped. It may be shallow (I am sure it is) but there you have it; it helped me break the shackles of the "nice guy syndrome" and feel desirable, appreciated, respected, loved. But then of course, that wore off. . ."Good Kirk" is coming back and I am slowing yearning for something more than just hypersexuality, of course.

*stealing a movie* line, speaking of movie lines. . .The Last Samurai (total guy movie). . ."perhaps I will find some measure of peace that we are all looking for (last line in the movie)."

Anyway (snapping out of it). . .one thing I think your husband should trade for your "surrender" to him is for him to let you know, in no uncertain terms, how valuable your council is and not underplay a wife's importance.

You think the First Lady has had no impact on our Presidents? Think again! Their advice and council has literally changed the direction of our country and shaped it. I know it's a difficult pill to swallow for feminists because it's "behind the scenes" and First Lady's hold no "real elected power" and there is certainly no reason a woman cannot be Commandress In Cheif (after Hillary's primary, I actually could have seen her in that role) but a First Lady's role is very important.

I would say Michelle Obama holds much more power, more genuine power, than Hillary Clinton at this time, who serves as Secretary of the State. She is changing society with her actions, just as Hillary did when she was First Lady.

A good leader, a good husband, will follow his council's advice 95% of the time. There are certain times when he will say, "No" but he should seek your council often and heed it in no uncertain terms.

Greenpearl,

Thanks for sharing your story also of your friend in debt. My stb-x always lusted for a greater lifestyle like your friend.

She is now free (or soon here) to pursue the lifestyle she has felt entitled to and I wish her well. The better she does, the better it is for my kids, I am sure and I support her quest.
 
#184 ·
My own experience! In 2008, everybody knows the financial crisis. My husband lost a lot of money from investing in the stock market, $30,000. We had to work hard for a year to get that money. I didn't like it. There was my hard earned money too. I wanted to explode. But my husband said, he already felt bad, me being furious would make him feel worse. What did I do? I started comforting him. He didn't want to lose money! Who doesn't make mistakes? I told him that we are still young, we can make that money back. Would it help our situation if I was yelling and screaming. Would my husband like me if I kept on blaming him? I didn't. I just told him not to make the same mistake again. Does he listen to me? YES! And he appreciates me for being understanding!

Is our situation bad now? NO! we work hard, we make money, we save money, we live a happy life, We love each other!!!
 
#185 ·
Greenpearl,

Thanks for sharing your story also of your friend in debt. My stb-x always lusted for a greater lifestyle like your friend.

She is now free (or soon here) to pursue the lifestyle she has felt entitled to and I wish her well. The better she does, the better it is for my kids, I am sure and I support her quest.[/QUOTE]

A person will never be happy if she is always pursuing material things. There is never enough! Only by being content with what you have now will make a person happy and peaceful!

Please find a woman who doesn't mind living a simple life, your life will be much easier!!! My husband's advice for men who are looking for wives. That's what he did!!! :):):):):)
 
#186 ·
Well, Greenpearl,

Well, she had me, had me 100% and was not happy with me. . .so there you have it. What can you do?

I think you are right of course. I do think there is a balance, between spirtual and material life.

I'd be totally, 100% happy living in a trailer near the beach crammed in with a family and surfing, fishing, crabbing, kayaking, jogging, swimming, doing "beachey" things.

But. . .I have to say, I know that "vision" isn't normal either and can be frustrating for the average American educated woman.

I think American Society needs to create a balance between the "McMansion Lifestyle" and one that's "Hippie", although I do want the "Hippie" van.

Gotta have the Hippie Van someday :), rust and all, with surfboards perched atop.
 
#188 ·
Scanner - I absolutely agree that a good husband listens to his wife and takes her opinion into consideration. I agree that a wife is a great influence on a man.

I don't think that is where most women have the problem letting their husband lead. I'll liken it to driving. Whomever is in the driver's seat determines the course. Period. The person in the passenger seat has no control. They have to go where the driver goes. Now the passenger can say where they want to go and the driver could listen, but other than that you have no control unless you try and take the wheel!

That's the problem. As a woman, I drove myself through life until I got married. Then after I got married, I was expected to move over to the passenger seat. It's not easy. It's the ultimate demonstration of trust. I have to tell my husband where I want to go and trust that he will take me there. And if he gets lost along the way (makes a mistake), I have to sit quietly while he gets back on track - even if I think I know the way! It's very hard to do sometimes and a lot of women (it seems your ex being one of them) have decided to just get out of the car.

Wives who do not let their husbands make the decisions in the house do not trust them and that is the bottom line.
 
#191 ·
I was having a conversation with a male co-worker today who was moaning about his wife to many of us female co-workers. She is too "independent" etc. etc. He in essence looked wistfully and harkened back to the "good old days" when women stayed at home raised the children, marriages were perfect and a man was a man. I pointed out that in the "good old days" women stayed at home because they had no other option. A man came home from work to dinner, ate his dinner and then sat on the sofa for the rest of the evening while the wife cleaned up, bathed the kids and took care of them. The husband would get up to give them an obligatory kiss before bedtime. In the "good old days" domestic violence largely went unreported, men called their secretaries "sexretaries" and groped them often without any legal ramifications, a wife got a grocery allowance from her husband, men called being unfaithful a "dalliance" and spousal rape wasn't even a crime. Women virtually had no options so they just dealt with life and their marriage as best they could.
As for modern men, who is preventing you from being men? It isn't women. In this day and age a woman wants a man to be her equal. How does being equal to women make you less of a man? Most women work and contribute half the income, I know I do and even if I didn't, how am I less than a man? Marriages are partnerships. Two halves become a whole. Remember that? That implies that each going in to a marriage is 50%.
What a woman wants is for her man to buck up and share in equal responsibility of the marriage and family. How does that make you less of a man for doing so? It seems like women progressed, but men did not.
As for the posts that implied that the pussification of men is largely responsible by the mothers out there, I have this to say. What exactly would you like us mothers to teach our sons? Should I raise my sons to believe that their sense of self should be wrapped up in what job title they hold? Or should I teach them that money is the key to everything? Our should I teach them that by being dominant over women is the key to their success? Or better yet, should I teach them that it is okay to treat women as submissive?
How about I teach them that their value and worth in life is based on what difference they made on this planet for having been here. Anybody can make money. Anybody can have a career. So what? It takes a special person to make a meaningful difference in the world. I don't think that message sets them up for being emasculated. It sets them up to be leaders.
BTW.... I have noticed a rise in misogynistic posts on this forum.
 
#192 ·
LOL. The saddest thing about the posts by the guys in busted marriages is the pervasive victimology they indulge in.

All this drivel about how the next generation of sons will figure out what biatches women are and won't marry them.

This is simple stuff - if you really are a good partner and your W treats you poorly end the marriage. You can't possibly talk about how you are staying for the kids when you are role modeling a male doormat. How does that help ANYONE?

As for women. Hell yes they challenge us. Thank your lucky stars for that. It was what helps you stretch. If being challenged causes you to shrink in fear that is not on her - that is all on you.

My W challenges me regularly. Sometimes it is purely on the basis of logic and reason. Sometimes it is totally an alpha style dominance move. In the former case she gets logic and reason back. If she is right I tell her, apologize and promise to do better. If it is a draw she gets an acknowledgement I see both sides. If her reasoning is flawed I point that out, then point it out again until she concedes the point. In the case of an alpha style approach where it has NOTHING to do with who is right and who is wrong and is purely a contest of wills a pure power struggle, she gets a pure alpha style response because THAT IS WHAT SHE WANTED.

This is exactly the same style I use at work with peers and bosses. From peers I get respect - bosses give me - well whatever they give employees they want to keep happy.

As for Brennan's general comments I agree with two exceptions one is the bedroom and the other the boardroom. Bedroom first: You take the respect thing literally in bed it turns into "may I touch your breast now?" A real woman does NOT want any part of that. And frankly a woman who brought some type of feminist political agenda into my bed would not last one night. While my W and I are equals - we are not equal. We are not the same. She has needs that I don't have. And I have needs that she doesn't have. And that makes life somewhat difficult but infinitely interesting.

As for the comment "any man can make money" I take exception to that. It is not far from saying "any woman can pop out kids". Technically true but it seems like gender bashing. Every successful guy I know gives to charities. Some give a LOT. ALL of them have gotten successful by doing something that consumers see value in.

We need to teach our boys to USE their testosterone, not suppress it.
 
#193 ·
MEM,
I was not equating my feminist beliefs in any way to the bedroom. I was talking about work, raising children and marriage in general working as as a true partnership, which most men don't do.
In the bedroom, my husband dominates and I love it.
Yes, alot of women can "pop out kids" but that doesn't make her a mother. What makes her a mother is raising those children to be future leaders of the world, be it garbage collectors or doctors. A leader isn't defined by his or her job, they just "are" and they inspire others.
 
#198 ·
Brennan,
I agree with that - and while sometimes guilty of under-performing at home in the past, I don't do that so much anymore. My W and I had this exchange last weekend.

Her: I am really sorry
Me: (while folding laundry) - about what?
Her: You made a gourmet breakfast this morning, and are on your 6th load of laundry and I have had the day off
Me: I wanted to make you a nice breakfast - and I wanted to do the laundry - smiling - I mean as opposed to walking around naked this coming week due to a lack of clean clothes
Her: You are doing way more around the house
Me: You are working 60 and doing the school charity thing another 6 hours a week. I am working a more normal work schedule.
Her: You are making way more than me - and now you are folding the laundry
Me: It is not about money - its about effort - your workload is higher now - this is just evening things up a bit. Go play - halftime just ended (I was watching football while folding)
 
#195 ·
As for the comment "any man can make money" I take exception to that. It is not far from saying "any woman can pop out kids". Technically true but it seems like gender bashing. Every successful guy I know gives to charities. Some give a LOT. ALL of them have gotten successful by doing something that consumers see value in.
When a man makes more than a woman for the same work with the same level of experience and education there is a problem and it is a problem for everyone.

Technically it's not true that any woman can pop out kids. There are many women who cannot. Technically it is absolutely false.

Every successful guy you know gives to charity? Big whoop (and do you actually see the receipt?). What is their motive? Do they all regularly volunteer for these charities or do they donate for the tax right off coupled with a toss out to the less fortunate to further bolster their ego by reiterating what successful men they must be? I work for a charity and volunteer regularly at others so I can attest to the fact that people are not giving nearly enough...not enough time, attention or money.
 
#199 ·
T,
Ouch. That stung a little. I must have hit a nerve with my post. I am sure it is frustrating to work at a charity focused on people who really need help and see donations drop while people continue to live very well - at least in the US.

As for the comment about popping out kids - I apologize to anyone reading my post who has struggled with fertility. I won't use that analogy again.
 
#196 · (Edited)
I think I saw a post somewhere, I can't find it now, sorry.

But her post made me think.

Women have changed and become independent, because we don't want to be bullied by men anymore. But we never asked men to become puxxx whipped. So instead of blaming us women for our independent thinking, how about men thinking of their roles as men? We want to respect a powerful man, actually it is in women's nature to marry a man who is more powerful than her. Women don't seek men who are weaker than them to get married, that's why a lot of highly educated or successful career women can't find men to get married, because there are few choices for them. And men who are at their level tend to look for women who are below them to get married.

So, my advice for men, just be MEN, don't let your woman step on you, don't let your woman make decisions for you, don't let them run your life, but please respect her and love her. I think a woman want love and protection from her man.

Just my own opinion, please don't take it personally.
 
#200 ·
GP,
You have perfectly captured the problem here. The men described in these posts want to retain their relationship power by putting women back in a situation where they have less options. Instead - the men need to step up.

The modern woman demands more. But treated fairly AND firmly she offers her man much more than her mother/grandmother ever did. The nice guys get the "fairly" but not the "firmly" so they get trampled.

That said, this is not a gender specific statement. Females who don't behave in a fair and firm manner are just as likely to be ill treated by their partners.
 
#197 · (Edited)
I prefer working to staying at home.

I don't have kids to look after. If I don't have a job, I'll be restless and bored. People should keep busy, if they are busy, they don't have time to sit down and feel sorry for themselves!

I think two incomes provide a better security. If my husband loses his job, at least we still have another income to help us live a normal life. vice versa. I used to feel very insecure when my EX told me he wanted to quit his job or he didn't like his job( I was a house wife for five years.). I don't have this insecure feeling any more. The fact that I am working helps me feel secure about our life, no mention a better life style!
 
#201 ·
Two halves become a whole. Remember that? That implies that each going in to a marriage is 50%.
Rarely is any partnership in business (and marriage is a business) 50/50.
 
#210 ·
Women need to remember that men getting their testicles back out of the jar women are keeping them in, won't be all fun and games.
Having said that I really do not like generalizations.
Women are not all selfless nurturing perfect Sleeping Beauties waiting for Prince Charming.
Men are not all angry,violent, beer drinking , wife beaters that watch WWF.( I know nobody here did generalize to that extreme, although , I am sensing the spirit of it here.)
I propose to all men and women that number one you go out and get happy with your own identity rather than relying on someone else or something else to give you what you need to feel secure.
Like a career title or a spouse.
Work hard at being what you want to be. Don't blame "him" or "her" or it.
Blame is pointless. It may make you feel better but it truly achieves nothing.
And personally, I have recognized my need to "man up" and have been working on it for some time.
 
#212 ·
Deejo,
I think you misunderstood me. I did not call anybody ignorant. My misogyny comment came from the underlying current in many of posts to this thread. In essence marry a woman that makes less than you, has less of an education and understands her role in a marriage so you won't feel threatened as a man. That men suddenly have their balls in a vice because women did this, not that men willingly gave them up.
Don't get me wrong, there were many many comments to the contrarary. It was just the "let's all harken back to the good old days" where a woman knew her place and a man was a man tone in some of the other posts that had me going.
 
#216 ·
Deejo,
I think you misunderstood me. I did not call anybody ignorant. My misogyny comment came from the underlying current in many of posts to this thread.
You didn't make the comment ;-)
I do understand. Debate is good. Exchange is good. Having women participate in this thread is good. None of us want to be cave men. We want to be better men. The focus of what MEM, and BBW contribute is what has worked for them in keeping their wives intimately attracted to them for more than two decades. Some may not care for the dynamics they outline, but results are hard to argue with.

Even more simply, there are men that aren't looking for a mother, a housekeeper, or a wh0re. We want a partner that loves and values us and yes ... wants to have sex with us ... a lot.

I don't feel threatened by women. I don't want women to feel threatened by me. I DO want to emulate behavior that makes me desirable, valuable and respectable.

It was just the "let's all harken back to the good old days" where a woman knew her place and a man was a man tone in some of the other posts that had me going.
The discussion of the intimate details of how that happens is invariably going to ruffle the feathers of some of the fairer sex. It isn't about devaluing, it's about being aware of, and implementing what works. Some of what works is going to sound sexist.
 
#215 ·
If it's hard to change myself, I would suspect it would be impossible to change my spouse.
:iagree:

Impossible to change them, or to make them feel a different way, or to make them develop new habits that "you (or I)" find desirable.

We have influence over them, but we have control over ourselves.
 
#219 ·
I still totally disagree with the idea that a varied few know what all women want and what all men want. It's just so lame and there has to at least be flexibility.

I like nice, intelligent guys. I truly do. I think they're awesome and, contrary to the majority on this board, I think they're rare. Egotistical, testosterone males are a dime a dozen. Maybe I live in a very weird part of the country.

I do think that those speaking, including myself, about good marriages are just having good marriages now. I found these boards because I was upset with my marriage and my first post was asking for help. No one knows what's in store for us. Obviously this forum board is a very small fraction of the population. It's great for communicating, sharing and sometimes learning. I'd rather root for one another than be right. In marriage right is very relative.
 
#224 ·
MEM, responding to yours on p. 2 of the posts--I agree with you. You practice give and take. When there is a disagreement, no one should have to "give" all the time. No one should have the "right" to dominate just b/c of his/her biology. In mature relationships, each of you knows when it is more important to give and to take the lead.

I don't want a passive partner, not in the living room, kitchen, car, or bedroom. I want someone willing to take a stand and never back down on something truly, essentially important just b/c he fears being alone, or having some discord. Neither of those two things is worth giving up yourself. But to insist on being dominant just for the sake of getting laid later--well, that is just plain stupid. In the long run, that is an insult to the intelligence of BOTH people involved. You've never said you do that. Just the opposite--you know when you must take a stand. You are not afraid to stand up for yourself. How any man ever came to believe that feminism meant he is not entitled to his opinions, etc., I'll never understand. He's not entitled to oppress another b/c he is a man, and she is a woman. He's not entitled to "dominate" just b/c he has a penis and she doesn't. He cannot get away with being a controlling fool. BUT none of that means he cannot be, should not be, a responsible adult. Same for women. Any woman who feels it is her "role" to abdicate her authority as a woman, wife, and mother, just b/c her husband feels otherwise, is also abdicating her responsibility to act as an adult and make the world a better place. I do not have respect for adults who choose to act as children or tyrants just b/c it suits them sexually; that does not make it right.
 
#229 ·
Since I am reading a book about Hormones right now & this thread has much to do about a Male using His Testosterone as nature intented, I want to add some facts here, this is the book : Amazon.com: The Alchemy of Love and Lust (9780671004446): Theresa L. Crenshaw: Books

As to Sexual roles -Testosterone :

*Increases sexual thoughts & fantasies
*Responds to Novelty , inspires one night stands & affairs
*Increases aggressive sex drive in both men & women -but *Doesn't have a stong effect on erection except indirectly by increasing desire.
*Increases the urge to masterbate rather than the desire for intercourse.

As to Behavior, Testosterone :

*Is activating
*Maintains separateness & promotes aggression
*Increases assertiveness and self -confidence
*Has been implicated as a cause of certain types of criminal behavior and domestic violence.
*Can trigger or contribute to psychotic behavior
*Rises in response to winning, social status, and pecking orders
*Is higher than usual in CAREER WOMAN

How we can Influence Testosterone :

*Winning compititions/arguments/battles
*Sexual thoughtsm activities
*Diet containing Meat
*exercise


As a potent aphrodisiac for both sexes, testosterone promotes a drive for specific genital sex & orgasm . It comes with some built in contradictions. Although full of LUST, you may become overbearing & irritable & unattractive to the opposite sex. At the least, it makes you want sex, but it also makes you want to be alone or thoroughly in control of sexual situations- so it specifically promotes masterbation or 1 night stands -which is as close to being alone as possible with another person.

Testosterone's motto: No emotional entaglements please. It is fair to say that it causes a compelling sexual urge that spurns relationships, unless they represent a conquest of acquisition of power.

Women, having considerably less testosterone than men, are more receptive to emotional intimacy and less reluctant to commit.

Luckily other hormones come into play to help us want the intimacy - such as Dopamine (Pleasure hormone) , Oxytocin (bonding -touching hormone), PEA -called the Molecule of love, PEA is the Romantic in us. Estrogen -men have this too & it increases as they age while test slowly descreases, Vasopressin -the tempering hormone - works closely with Testosterone to keep it from reaching extreme highs & getting too hot -they also call it the Monogamy hormone.

I really believe that much of our Behaviors ARE influenced by the specific levels of hormones in our body at any given time. If any of these hormones are out of whack/lacking/too high, it can cause colossal problems -which can indeed affect our relationships. We may not act as we should, as nature intended.

I know I married a "Nice Guy", he does not masterbate hardly ever, he wants to cuddle all day long. He is always calm, always receptive, he does not need his space, rarely aggressive. It all makes sense that he IS this way. I know for a fact his Test levels are lower than other men his age, and most likely have always been considering his easy going temperance.

By no means does this fact of his hormonal make up excuse him to readily become anyone's "doormat" of coarse, not his wife, his friends, his co-workers. We all need to stand up and
RESPECT OURSELVES. I know when it came to something serious, he would turn into a MADMAN to protect me & his family, so it is there.

But for the man OOZING with high TEST, it is "much easier" for him to just BE and walk in what BBW and MEM says over & over & over, and these books recommended about getting one's balls back. I am tempted to buy one myself for curiosity's sake to see if the Hormonal influence on our brains is even mentioned, without it, I would feel they are lacking somehow.

I do not like to see these kind of men put down, especially when so much emphasis is put on being so dominant in the bedroom or wives loosing attraction (not the case in our marriage by any means). Some of the problem may lie with the Higher test women (career women mentioned on this thread for pages) who are not treating these decent loving men as they should- Depending of coarse on if they are doing their part in the marriage , running of the household, not wasting $$, being responsable of coarse.

Nice guys may need to tweak some things in their life to NOT be taken advantage of, absolutely I agree with that !!! but so do the rest of us assertive confident sometimes A-holes need to treat people with more kindness and temperance. I know I have been there - many times.
 
#237 ·
SA,
This is a very balanced and accurate post. I deliberately manipulate my T levels via exercise, diet and certain behavior patterns. When I close a deal at work I can FEEL my T levels rise. When I do other stuff at work - that produces very obvious and positive results/response from co-workers - same thing.

The BEST feeling I recall in the past two years was when we were 5 days without sex - W and I both had schedule conflicts. So I had been with her for 5 days - desiring her for 5 days - but no release. I was flooded with T. I started lifting while watching a really good football game. Got a nice adrenaline rush and the T + the adrenaline did something magical. For a good half hour the weights felt like air. You know when folks say that in mental hospitals it takes 3-4 orderlies to control 1 patient when the patient goes berserk. It was like that except I was calm/happy. Just riding some incredible hormonal surge.

That night we connected and the next day I was mostly back to normal.

I DO have to be careful when I am T saturated though. It is very easy to go from being aggressive to being a total prick in that state.
 
#230 ·
I really believe that much of our Behaviors ARE influenced by the specific levels of hormones in our body at any given time. If any of these hormones are out of whack/lacking/too high, it can cause colossal problems -which can indeed affect our relationships. We may not act as we should, as nature intended.

I know I married a "Nice Guy", he does not masterbate hardly ever, he wants to cuddle all day long. He is always calm, always receptive, he does not need his space, rarely aggressive. It all makes sense that he IS this way. I know for a fact his Test levels are lower than other men his age, and most likely have always been considering his easy going temperance.

By no means does this fact of his hormonal make up excuse him to readily become anyone's "doormat" of coarse, not his wife, his friends, his co-workers. We all need to stand up and
RESPECT OURSELVES. I know when it came to something serious, he would turn into a MADMAN to protect me & his family, so it is there.

But for the man OOZING with high TEST, it is "much easier" for him to just BE and walk in what BBW and MEM says over & over & over, and these books recommended about getting one's balls back. I am tempted to buy one myself for curiosity's sake to see if the Hormonal influence on our brains is even mentioned, without it, I would feel they are lacking somehow.

I do not like to see these kind of men put down, especially when so much emphasis is put on being so dominant in the bedroom or wives loosing attraction (not the case in our marriage by any means). Some of the problem may lie with the Higher test women (career women mentioned on this thread for pages) who are not treating these decent loving men as they should- Depending of coarse on if they are doing their part in the marriage , running of the household, not wasting $$, being responsable of coarse.

Nice guys may need to tweak some things in their life to NOT be taken advantage of, absolutely I agree with that !!! but so do the rest of us assertive confident sometimes A-holes need to treat people with more kindness and temperance. I know I have been there - many times.



Happy for you!

Agree with you!

Having balls is different from being domineering. They have balls, but they are not domineering. They are loving and caring.
 
#231 ·
Niceguy,
Who is being misogynistic? Well this post clears it up for me at least.
Scanners post: I just think, well. . .educated women are a little more of a burden for the married man. Knowing what I know now, when my sons someday bring a home a nice piece of tail and tell me "Hey Dad, I'm getting married. How about that?", I will take them aside and perhaps hand them this thread and tell them that you are about to have your hands full if there is a BA or a BS (or worse - a MBA, MS, MD or PhD after their name). In the meantime, I had better teach them what it means to be a man in this Brave New World.

I have even extended this theory to the fact when I remarry, I think I want a woman who is less educated than me as I start to scan "the marketplace."

Just a woman has a right to seek out an educated man, I think I as a man have a right to seek out an uneducated woman and not have to deal with all that.

I usually agree with him but this post made my skin crawl. If it was sarcasm, it certainly didn't come out that way to me. Who knows. I work with alot of women hating men. Maybe I am jaded. Apologies if that is the case!
 
#232 · (Edited)
There are a lot of women who are hurt by men. There are a lot of men who are hurt by women. There are a lot of people who are hurt by people. This is life. Life is not perfect. We have to live with it.

I respect people who are nice to others, no matter they are men or women. I dislike people who hurt others, no matter they are men or women.

Even though I was taught not to expect perfection from people, I dislike people who hurt others!
 
#239 ·
BBW:

My personal opinion, I think advice should come from people who have organized lives. That's why I respect you and MEM so much. I am happy to see you guys here every day. You guys are not here seeking advice, you guys are here trying to help. I know there are a lot of good men and women here, I am happy to see.
I had been to some Chinese forums, some people come up and tell people their problems, and right away you see a lot of advice which doesn't make any sense. I do think that people only like to see comfort and echoes, they want to hear things which agrees with their thinking. That's a wrong attitude, I think. What you don't like to hear might help you even more, people just don't realize it until many years later.

I am a supporter of you! I am a supporter of men who have balls but not domineering. I am a supporter of women who respect their husbands and try hard to meet their husbands' needs.
 
#241 ·
GP,
It is true that I try to help here. It is also true that I learn. I have learned to be less verbal/more non-verbal with my W from reading BBW. I have learned to fine tune my alpha/beta blend from Atholk. I have gotten to smile reading your posts which remind me so much of my W.

Sometimes I get frustrated with the male posters when I feel that they are giving up on their situation or maybe even themselves.


BBW:

My personal opinion, I think advice should come from people who have organized lives. That's why I respect you and MEM so much. I am happy to see you guys here every day. You guys are not here seeking advice, you guys are here trying to help. I know there are a lot of good men and women here, I am happy to see.
I had been to some Chinese forums, some people come up and tell people their problems, and right away you see a lot of advice which doesn't make any sense. I do think that people only like to see comfort and echoes, they want to hear things which agrees with their thinking. That's a wrong attitude, I think. What you don't like to hear might help you even more, people just don't realize it until many years later.

I am a supporter of you! I am a supporter of men who have balls but not domineering. I am a supporter of women who respect their husband and try hard to meet their husbands' needs.
 
#243 · (Edited)
Concerning the aversion to the words and phrases concerning male sexual dominance:


I am not doing anything not 100 percent what my woman responds to, or wants or, okay let me say it, often BEGS me to.

In this, how can it even be considered that there is some oppression or lack of consideration for my wife or any woman?

Sexual domination by a man, this is the core of the sexual structure, a man strives to dominate, a woman strives to be dominated.

Male dominance is not in any way some excuse for a man to be lazy and neglecting his responsibilties for all these things under his care.

If I was to ignore what my wife is wanting to experience sexually because I was afraid, or because some feminist somewhere would be offended, or any other reason under the sun, then I am neglecting not only my responsibility but my greatest opportunity for happiness and success for myself and my wife and my marriage.

Likewise, if I was not already of the mettle to win my wife's attraction and respect already to begin with, by my own care for my own appearance and manners, my aspirations and goals, my protective instincts of her, how I treat her with respect as a lady, my integrity in conducting myself, and, this is most important to my woman and I will assume all women, my HONESTY, then my domination of her sexually behind closed doors is not even going to be the opportunity to be an issue.

For in this case, my wife is going to be closed intimately, sexually, and emotionally to me if I am neglecting my responsibilities.

And lest any good man in this scenario believes in this case his woman is some assexual being just because she is "getting old" or "had children" or a million other excuses, then this good man should not be surprised when around the corner appears some affair man, and that if this affair man does express some mettle that the first man is either lacking or neglecting, and the woman is seeing in this other man the dominating hints that he is lacking, then she is 100 percent on fire for this affair man and leaving her good man in the dust.

This is simply how it is.

I am knowing and seeing it even in my own marriage, the times years ago when I put on the nice guy mask so much as many other men, did the sex decrease and the emotional distance increase.

This is simply cause and effect, it is not politics or feminism or manism or misogynist or misandrist or any other ism or ist you can think of.

It is rubber meets the road truth!

A woman is irresistibly attracted to the man in control of himself and his environment, and resentful of the man who is opposite this.

The point is, when a woman is not attracted sexually to her man, then is the happiness of both the good man and woman going to go down, the resentment will go up, and the likelyhood of EA or PA or divorce will skyrocket.

So ask yourself and answer this question, why do the good man and woman get married in the first place?

Is it because marriage is a wise business decision?

Is it based on logic?

Is it based on reason?

Is it sexual attraction?


Hint, the answer is sexual attraction!


There is nothing rocket science in my own marriage that is so inexplicable as not to be beneficial to any good man or woman also wanting passionate sex to fuel their own relationships.

Also there is nothing in my own marriage to suggest that my dominate advice extends beyond the closed doors of the bedroom.

I have typed time and time and time again, for anyone on this forum to see me and my wife together, it is nothing less than I dote on her and I am wrapped around her finger!

Only the slyest eyes would catch sometimes the glances or body language that is also present, how I touch her or she touches me or even our own subtle facial expressions that may contain the slightest hint of what may or may not occur behind closed doors. :)

This thing we call sexual attraction, it is not smoke and mirrors, this thing called sexual attraction is merely cause and effect of our own actions and behaviors. :)
 
#250 ·
Ok my turn to weigh in here again. In honesty, I also get my feathers ruffled a little with some of the things BigBadWolf says, his words seems to trample underfoot the way MY husband IS, like he is Less of a man in comparison to these"GOOD" men he speaks of. But it is only this bedroom talk that ruffles me, nothing else as my husband is completely responsible, an excellent provider/father, superb handyman & never whines.

But for the sake of understanding, maybe I need to ask more questions, maybe I am assuming things that ought not to be assumed. When I read this>>>>
Sexual domination by a man, this is the core of the sexual structure, a man strives to dominate, a woman strives to be dominated..
and all of the "Resentment" talk that he speaks of IF this is not happening in the bedroom, this is where I do not feel you can put all couples into a BOX.

So lets talk about this particular dominance in the bedroom & it’s VITAL marriage sustaining role in sexual attraction..... So What does this GOOD MAN oozing with attraction, that his wife is wet for him 24/7, what exactly does he do in the bedroom to achieve this ??? I would like some DETAILS please. This is somewhere nonone has ventured to go just yet on this thread.

I have a very very good feeling if you try to explain this, it will greatly fit the example of an EROTIC LOVER. Taken from this book Amazon.com: When Your Sex Drives Don't Match: Discover Your Libido Types to Create a Mutually Satisfying Sex Life (9781569242711): Sandra Pertot: Books >>> You need passion, excitement and variety to feel that your relationship is vibrant & sustainable. This means enjoying frequent sexual touch such as fondling the breasts, patting the bottom (SPANKING), stroking the genitals as well as having regular prolonged exciting sex. Downside is this>> Erotic lovers can be rigid & judgemental (probablay what some of us are picking up on). You tend to believe that you are more sophisticated, knowledgeable & flexible than your partner. However, your acceptance of variety only relates to sex with "an edge" activities, but only those that give you a thrill. You tend to be dismissive of quietly sensual & predictable lovemaking ('Vanilla Sex"). Erotic Libido types can therefore find that their ideal relationship is elusive. Your belief that an erotic sex life is the necessary foundation for a committed relationship can lead you to the conclusion that either your relationship or your partner has a problem if your sex life lacks the exact CHALLENGES you desire. So much more can be said here but it is a start.


I would also venture to say many Nice Guys, those not so dominate in the bedroom, may fit the SENSUAL LOVER description >>>> Sex for this lover is more about emotional connection & reinforcement of mutual caring, so the focus is less on what is actually done & more on whether your partner is willing to be physically intimate & is emotionally present during sex. You describe each other as best friends , you look for time together & are happy in each others company , you want sex to be an extension of this, with an easy familiarity & comfortable atmosphere & the most important aspect of sex is knowing that your partner looks forward to physical intimacy as much as you do. This is the man with the SLOW hand and the EASY Touch. I think there is a slew more women out there , besides the Pointer sisters, who appreciates this kind of MAN & the sexual attraction to him is not something to spit at.

What I get from your posts is that this kind of Lover is inadequate somehow, so please, DO correct me if I misunderstanding.
 
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