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Modern Men (Warning...long)

47K views 437 replies 38 participants last post by  Deejo 
#1 ·
I've been on marriage sites like this one for years trying to figure out what was wrong with my marriage. Over the last 13 years the relationship dynamic has changed between my wife and I.

I did everything that is considered the gold standard to try to put us back on the right course. I helped with the cleaning, I cooked, I did dishes, helped with the laundry, prepared surprise romantic dinners, teased her, left love notes, everything everyone suggests to try to "get her in the mood".

Nothing worked. My wife never really flat out rejected me much. Mostly she just ignored my advances, which, to be honest, was worse than straight rejections. I did have my share of rejection but more often than not she would just ignore me.

I blamed her for a lot of the problems. It was her fault I was our sex life sucked, it was her fault I wasn't happy.

Then I started stumbling across posts from different men on the forums I had visited. People like MEM, BigBadWolf, and others. The things they said seemed alien to me at the time.

When I was growing up, my mother was the authority figure in the home. My dad was a passive, hard working, honest man who never really made a decision of his own in his life. At times though, he held a lot of anger. He was passive-aggressive, but not often. Never abusive, and always terrified of making my mother angry. I would always hear him telling his friends and co-workers, "I can't do that, it would upset my wife." To me, this was normal. And it was, with all my male relatives. Their wives ran the house, the husbands brought home the money in most cases.

To get to the point, most of the men in my family, circle of friends, and co-workers were this exact same way...and so was I.

From the time I was a boy, I was taught to treat women like princesses. To put them on a pedestal. I was taught to treat my sister different than I would treat my brother. Taking queues from my male role models, I learned that the way to make a woman deliriously happy was to give in to her every whim. To do everything she asked, even if I it was the last thing I wanted to do, because it made them happy. I was that, and I saw it through example. This "education" translated to others as well. If anyone would ask me for help, I was there. I would do anything for anyone, and I did.

From reading posts from people like MEM and BBW, I couldn't quite grasp what they were saying. I mean, I did, but it didn't make any sense. So, I started reading more. Articles on male dominance, etc. Things started to make sense, but dominance as it was being explained sounded like I would just be another a-hole. There was a balance that was missing.

I eventually noticed quite a few threads around the net referring to a book called "No More Mr. Nice Guy". I bought it and read it and in that book I found the balance I was thought was missing.

My problem was the true lack of a MALE role model in growing up. There were few MEN that I could have looked to. My maternal Grandfather was the only on.

You, I learned the problem with most modern men (the last two or three generations) is that we have, for the most part, lost how to actually be men.

We have no boundaries to what type of behaviors are unacceptable to us. We put up with nagging, *****ing, public scolding, and a whole laundry list of other things. Why? Because we don't have the balls to draw the line in fear of "angering the wife". We have no regard for our OWN happiness, and therefore, most of us are miserable in relationships.

We do everything for our wives and nothing for ourselves. We say things like, "Honey, I'd really like to have a new XXXX. Can I buy one please?" Exactly like we did when we were little boys. I don't know what woman finds actions such as this attractive.

The other thing that women I've talked to find irritating and unattractive is the old, "I don't care, whatever you want." This ranges from wanting input on paint colors for the house to where to go for dinner. We have an opinion, why are we afraid to express it? This example, I believe, is a woman offering her man an opportunity to lead. Women WILL test us to see if we are willing to 1) lead 2) protect and 3) provide.

I will admit, through almost all of my marriage, I was a solid provider, but that was it. I gave up all my friends and hobbies, for my wife. This always gnawed at me, but I was "taught" this was the way things were.

After looking at all the married men around me and having my eyes opened, I saw it was the way things were, but not the way things "should" be. All the things I was expected to give up, and that my wife didn't approve of, she had, and I didn't.

Where I asked permission to buy something, she just bought it. Where I asked permission to go out, she just told me and went.

Slowly, over time, she lost all sexual interest in me, but she was happy with the life I provide her and she was ok with things the way they were. After finally figuring myself out, and finally understanding what she really wanted from me, I started changing. So far, it has been tough for us both. She resists because I'm upsetting her apple cart. I'm taking her out of her comfort zone, but I finally realized that was NOT the life I wanted to lead. I WILL not lead that life, even if it means parting ways.

It was an eye opening day when I realized all the men I was surrounded by, myself included, had no balls. We were/are AFRAID of our wives and would not stand up for ourselves for anything. We are getting exactly the life we deserve.

Oddly enough, I notice it everywhere now and it is a constant reminder to keep working on myself. If you want to know what I'm talking about, watch any of the husband / wife type sitcoms on TV.

I learned that my wife can NOT make me happy, only I can. My wife is there kind of like a polish, to make that happiness just that more beautiful to experience. We are far from there, and may not get there, but I'm now willing to pursue my happiness, with or without her.

Anyway, I see a lot of the same traits from most of the men that post here who have the same problems I'm trying to correct now. I'm having some success, but its going to be a long road.

We, as men, have to relearn how to be men.
 
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#247 ·
I agree with Trenton - one size does not fit all (you guys should know that from condoms - HA).

Everyone is different. A truly aggressive, dominate man will not work for a truly aggressive, dominate woman - opposites attract for a reason - they balance each other out.

I am the more aggressive one in the relationship and my husband is more passive - always has been - if I was married to a truly dominate, aggressive man - we would have some major issues. My husband balances out my aggressive side with his calmness and ability to stay unflappable in the midst of the storm and I balance out his calmness and get aggressive when something needs to get done.

Do we both get things done - sure we do - but each in our own way and path.

So while these are tried and true methods (according to some of the posters), they don't work for everyone, just like one size fits all condoms don't work for every man. Believe it or not - there are men who prefer "not to wear the pants" in the family and like the fact that their wives wear them and don't complain at all.

My husband can tell you he likes the fact that I wear the pants - hell, he gave them to me years ago - less stress on him, do I consider him a weaker man - no - am I less sexually attracted - no, quite the opposite. And he likes the dominance in bed too (when we do have sex, but that has nothing to do with our roles in the marriage - that is medical).

My husband likes take-charge women - I like take-charge men - which he is when he needs to be, but he doesn't have to dominate me and club me on the head and drag me to bed when he's ready - that does not TURN "ME" ON.

My two cents worth...
 
#248 · (Edited)
My personal opinion, I noticed that happy marriages are similar, just different people, different jobs, different culture background. But miserable marriages have all kinds of different reasons.

If you want to get married, be wary of anyone who is proud and opinionated, never willing to compromise, or who constantly demands and schemes to have his or her own way.
 
#249 ·
In a truly successful marriage, the couple are good friends and enjoy each other's company. For this, they need to have interests in common. It is difficult to sustain a close relationship-much less a marriage, when this is not the case. Still, if your prospective partner enjoys a particular activity, such as hiking, and you do not, does that mean that the two of you should not get married? Not necessarily. Perhaps you share other, more important interests. Moreover, you might give happiness to your prospective partner by sharing in wholesome activities because the other person enjoys them.

Indeed, , to a large degree, compatibility is determined by how adaptable both of you are rather than by how identical you are. Instead of asking, " Do we agree on everything?" some better questions might be:" What happens when we disagree? Can we discuss matters calmly, according to each other respect and dignity? Or do discussing often deteriorate into heated arguments?
 
#251 ·
>>A woman is irresistibly attracted to the man in control of himself and his environment, and resentful of the man who is opposite this.<<

Absolute truth.

And, if you do not hit this mark, work on yourself, physically, emotionally, and intellectually - until you CAN hit this mark.

I have been both. So, I know.



 
#252 · (Edited)
>>A woman is irresistibly attracted to the man in control of himself and his environment, and resentful of the man who is opposite this.<<

Makes perfect sense but not always true.

We've all known people - both men and women - who were drawn to someone who is out of control - perhaps with drugs or alcohol or self-discipline. It can be exciting. Or sometimes viewed as a challenge or a project to try and help this poor but attractive soul. These relationships are almost always doomed - but it shows that there can be attraction to someone who is not in control.

I recently read an article about how more young people are co-habitating (living in sin, whatever) and how this is much different from how it was 10 years ago. The article cited that more young working women are "settling" for younger men who can't find a job in today's economy.

Of course no one ever questioned a young working man who will "support" a young unemployed woman. But a woman who does the same is just "settling."


Also:
Is the opposite of the statement above true?

>>A man is irresistibly attracted to a woman in control of herself and her environment, and resentful of the woman is opposite this.<<

The first half makes sense - but I'm not sure that men are "resentful" of women who are not in control.

In other words, is it truly a gender issue, or are people just more attracted to people who have their $hit together?

Or, if it truly is a gender issue, should the opposite read like this:

>>A man is irresistibly attracted to a woman who is not in control of herself and her environment, and is repelled by the woman who is opposite this<<

Makes no sense - but still happens.
 
#254 ·
first- GOOD FOR YOU!!!

Second, I agree 100% about too many male figures and not enough MEN. I myself like a mans man- not an overly afeminine yes man.

Growing up in the deep south- I know alot of women who have stayed stuck in the reverse of that rut their whole sad lives. Woman down there dote and spoil their men. That is what I learned and when I entered my first serious relationship that is what I did. I let him where the crown, did everything as he would like it, didnt do things i thougt would upset him (thats just how I was taught to "keep" a man) I didnt force my opinions down his throat and I was very young, right out of highschool so I did not have the maturity yet to know that I was doing myself an injustice. Long story short- I found out 3 yrs into the relationship I found out he was ferkin around with a girl we went to highschool with and a long revelation later I realized the same things you have. I still do all sorts of things for my husband alot of it my friends say I am crazy for- but he also does a lot for me.We have a mostly good balance of doting and "self" preservation.
 
#255 · (Edited)
So why no takers on my specific questions above - in regards to dominance in the bedroom & it's role in a Man's man's life ? I really was hoping for some takers, I am a little disappointed here.


What exactly does "dominance" behind closed doors mean to you all. Is it a matter of just NOT being afraid to initiate , touch your woman, & getting frisky when you are in the mood ...Or it is alot more than that... like throwing her down on the bed, saying "you are mine now", aggressively moving her to where you want, picking her up, carrying her to the bed even if she may not necessarily want that at the moment, stripping her clothes off before she knows what is happening, maybe pushing her up against the wall, pushing her head down on you. A lusty ravishing -maybe even against her will at 1st until you break her down & she wants you, spanking to show who is in control. This is what comes to my mind when I hear the phrase "Dominance in the bedroom".

Not every man acts like this. I think it is more in the movies. Enlighten me.
 
#261 ·
Looking back, I do feel he FELT his self -esteem was wrapped up in how much I WANTED HIM, so he simply waited for me to come around to him many times.
I tried this. I think a lot of resigned married guys fall into this category. I let her take the lead. Let me know when you are comfortable and ready - because I'm tired of being rejected and by being patient and understanding, you think you are being a great guy. She did nothing for the next 90 days, and I kept my mouth shut. It does a number on men. I don't think many women are, or want to be aware of how damaging consistently refusing sex is. Instead, it becomes a punch-line. My ex used sex as a means of passive aggressive control. I will NEVER allow this dynamic to occur in another relationship.

I am different than other women, I am NOT one to pull away from Doting, closeness or kindness, I love these things, my husband did nothing wrong here (as many of you feel this pushed away your woman) - His only blunder was skewed communication, because of what he heard other places... do her dishes, help her around the house, then you'll get more sex ...WHAT?? That might work for an "Acts of service" wife, but that is NOT me, that is almost silly to me. He needed to "open up" with me , express his longings through words & more touch, not supress them. That is where he failed. But never once did I want anyone else.
Prior to my blowing a gasket in our marriage, my wife would have also said, "I didn't want anyone else." The issue was, she didn't want me either. Of course once she became emotionally engaged and attached to TOM, she was again fully invested in EROTIC sex. But like clockwork, the more their relationship has settled into a pattern of normal - I'm pretty confident that the physical side of their relationship has dropped precipitously. It was simply more fun when she didn't have to think about what it was and what it meant.

My LL is also physical touch. Her's distinctly was not. Hers I believe would be 'words of affirmation', which as our marriage got stuck, and I would implement, she merely saw as a ruse for sex. It was an extraordinarily damaged dynamic.



Which books do you most recommend about this subject?
You simply cannot go wrong with "No More Mr. Nice Guy"

Not to get on BBW , but I once read my husband one of his posts & he looks at me & says "He is a Bragger" and starts talking about these guys at work that talk like that.

I am not saying He brags, so dont jump on me, anyone who is full of confidence and assurance of WHAT WORKS has the ability to come off this way. But I still found it very funny that he said that to me.
That's what every red-blooded 'women are gentle creatures who should be placed on a pedestal and revered' nice guy would also believe. It sounds arrogant, sexist, and disrespectful. I thought it too, way back in 08. What he had to say about behavior and attraction was antithetical to what I had been taught and believed about women and relationships. I don't think that BBW is any of those things. By his own admission he decided to make changes when his own marriage and sex life was sinking. I don't think that either he, nor MEM are here to score cool points. They talk about what worked for them, what they believe, and why they believe it. They are in a 20+ year marriages with a great sex life. I had a deteriorating 10 year marriage with a wife that decided to screw the handyman.

I looked into what they were saying. As it turns out, lots of others were saying the same thing. I bought a pickup artist book and decided I had nothing to lose by implementing these behaviors. I was seeing someone at the time. Up to that point, I was being 'proper and respectable'. I was still waiting for queues from her that it was ok to 'go for it'. After 4 dates we were still at the peck on the cheek stage. We had date #5 after I read the book. I went for it. EVERYTHING changed. It was all I needed to be sold.
 
#263 · (Edited)
SimplyAmorous,

Although I watch this thread with interest, you are correct as I have expressed that I am not quick to share the details of my own sexual relationship with my wife.

This is simply because it is ours and our alone, and my wife has expressed many times it is nothing in her interest to share what is ours. So that is why on details, even in anonymous marriage forums, I remain distant on details.

As well, nothing I share at this board is necessary for such details. For to be sure, the things I experience with my wife, are not going to be welcome with many other couples.

I am not here to contribue to some erotic novel, or bdsm fantasy, or any of these other things which yes, are shadows of reality.

And absolutely I prefer and expect reality, and so should every good man and woman reading at this forum, they should expect nothing less in this life that to truly pursue and discover their own happiness and bliss.

Yes, there are experiences in my life even this very week and this very day, way beyond social acceptance, way beyond legal acceptance, and would be shocking or off putting to the many ladies and some men and/or the young people that read these posts.

And that would be a shame, as it would merely be a distraction to the real point of all this.

The point being, that attitude, actions, and behavior, these are what are needing to be in place in the proper context.

The details, the good men and women will fill in their own details, some less than, some greater than, any of the details that I could fill in and that is what is proper and beneficial.

I am on this forum, because last year as a part of my own reflection of 20 years married anniversary, I decided on a whim to see what the online forums were all about in regards to marriage and advice and other happiness.

Needless to say I was horrified to spend even a first few minutes of reading this website, of bad advice heaped on more bad advice, thread after thread, page after page!

So that is why I was interested to create an acount, to share a glimpse here and there what is without disptue working, and hopefully to put out a few fires in the process where I saw nothing less than the equivalent of trying to put out a house fire by pouring on kerosene and dried wood and being absolutely astounded at the bad results.

So for your questions, the erotic or sensual lover?

Yes, both of course.

And do not miss this, for the record, mostly in my mind and preference it is sensual. I have spent many hours to study Kama Sutra and embrace many elements of the philosophy and teachings, learning the power of intimacy, of creating arousal and enjoying orgasms "riding the wave" indeed, often without much actual touching at all with incredible results.

As well, when the time is needing, be sure I am not going to hold back to be aggresive, or to have shown at times very much what you have mentioned, hair pulling, wrestling, outright brutishness, etc etc, producing in my woman wild orgasm upon wild orgasm, indeed the most passionate and primal orgasms are this way. But know this is not going to be proper all the time, nor would it be proper anytime it is not embraced fully by myself and my wife, this aggresive side.

But the point is, this cause and effect is without dispute, when my woman has seen this side of me, and I have seen that side of her, this is not quickly forgotten between us.

So this experience translate to sexual respect, and this respect spills out of the rest of the relationship, so in this way, outside the bedroom, the fitness tests for example, they are either non issues or quickly resolved mostly without much speaking.

So this is just what it is, not to bore or offend with the details, but to share the cause and effect of the actions and behaviors that any couple can choose to explore and create for themselves for their own happiness and bliss their own primal and passionate and erotic and sensual sexual relationships! :)
 
#264 ·
The proactive approach:

This whole cycle of sexual rejection and then ignoring your partner never happened to us. BUT we had a painful cycle that lasted a couple years. Two long painful years. I was skinny - and not edgy/driven. Perhaps a shrink would say I was mildly depressed. The lack of muscle mass plus the lack of edge KILLED her desire. While that was obvious at some level. I still insisted on sex once every 5 days or so. Not as in forcing her physically - I would never do that. I simply said "once every five days is the minimum frequency I will tolerate" full stop. Less is not acceptable.

And I don't say "not acceptable" unless I am dead serious. So "not acceptable" means there will be some clear and definitive consequence unless the situation is resolved in a way that I find tolerable. So she never questioned the 5 day rule. And fortunately even though her baseline desire level was impaired she was still able to "let me get her in the mood". And she was committed enough and RESPECTED me enough to do that. She was NOT "in love" with me at that time. And frankly that is on me, not her.

Looking back she gets an A+ in commitment. And frankly I get a B in restraint. I actually wanted sex more often than that, but chose not to push, even though I could have successfully done so - because I knew what was happening and felt I needed to suck it up to.

That said - even though I am in love with, and cannot imagine EVER divorcing my W. I absolutely am willing/able and practiced at detaching myself emotionally when she gets so far outside her swim lane that she is no longer even in the pool. And sexually well - she is keenly aware of my viewpoint. When she had pelvic inflammation for 2 months she got support, love and patience. I got lots of offers for alternative sexual entertainment from her and accepted about half of them.

But were she to lose her desire for me - truly lose it - and not want to have sex. I would take a lover until she regained her desire - or have a lover open ended. The same option would be available to her in reverse. FWIW we have actually had this conversation - it was a "what do you think is fair" type discussion we had a few months ago purely because I was curious as to her viewpoint. Of course it was easy for her to agree with me as for the last 2 years she has been in love with me and can't imagine that changing.

Some folks will say that I am not committed. That I don't really take my vows seriously if I have this view. I am fine with that. These are MY rules for ME and MY marriage. My W has right of first refusal on my body. Always has, always will. If she chooses to "pass" on her right, she forfeits the "right" to demand the total sexual exclusivity she currently enjoys.

And ultimately this is the reverse logic that makes our marriage work like a hyper-extended honeymoon. Because there is that same flavor of behavioral fear/excitement you have in dating. Think about it - why do people behave so well when dating. They are afraid that if they treat their bf/gf poorly it will end. Entwined in that fear is a type of excitement that many/MOST people lose when they "catch/trap" their mate in a lifetime commitment. Neither of us ever tolerated that chronic and widespread disease of indifference. That "now that we are married no longer have to put effort into the relationship".

This isn't the "walking on eggshells" anxiety of "is he/she going to break up with me". We have our share of mistakes, arguments, tension. Those things are part of life with two strong willed people. But there is a gigantic chasm separating "mistakes" and choices. Saying something stupid is a mistake. Forgetting to run an errand - no problem. But a pattern of indifference to your partners needs, THAT is a choice. And soon as either of us starts doing that, the other notices. And after a short grace period the person getting deprioritized - starts to ratchet up their reaction.

This is the "cat" model of interaction. My cat has 4 modes:
- CUTE: cuddly and purring
- WARNING: - he does this by firmly grabbing your hand/foot and holding it in place with his teeth. This doesn't hurt but it definitely gets your attention
- LAST CHANCE: he now places his claws - fully extended on your hand/foot - holding you in place. You can still defuse him fairly easily by rubbing his cheek. In which case he lets go.
- WE'RE ON: he inserts his claws into your flesh and rends

I would say his behavior mirrors our behavior with each other. Very clear, very deliberate. You know exactly where you stand at any point. "Not acceptable" is my version of "last chance".
 
#265 ·
So many airs of fill in the blank with whatever air you choose to display.

If we truly wanted to help one another we would be bluntly honest and yet even on a semi-anonymous forum we feel we must be careful with the words we choose. It is no wonder we struggle as couples and with ourselves.

I am an honest person by nature, deeply honest and deeply personal from the get go. I realize quickly it makes others uncomfortable. Many have told me I lack that editor most people have.

BBW you think that a man must be the dominant partner with a female being submissive. This is your claim to marriage fame. Yet, you are unwilling to go into details. It's hard for me to really decide what is going on without details, just as it is hard for me to decide if what you are saying is true or the ramblings of a hardcore male looking to create a pack of wolves.

In all honesty, I will say that as a woman I struggle with a desire to be heard and recognized as well as submissive with my husband. That's the crux of the issue for me. I have an innate desire to please but would also like to be considered as important and this is the balance couples need to see (in my opinion of course).

I will give you an honest example of this. My husband and I are throwing a Halloween party soon. It is for adults and we want it to be fun. I was debating over which costume I should buy. I came home with a Leg Avenue costume that was short and revealing. I thought it was a great time to feel sexy at a party for both my husband and for myself. I tried the costume on for my husband. This ended in unadulterated sex followed by a comment from him that made it clear he wouldn't want me to dress this way at a party where all of our adult friends and family would be.

Now I happily submitted to the "dirty" sex with me playing a fairy tale character in a short skirt wanting to be dominated. It felt good and I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the immediate attention from my husband. Was there spankings involved...there were and since it was from a man that I adore it felt like a gift rather than a punishment. At the same time, afterwards, I felt controlled as I was annoyed I couldn't wear this costume for the Halloween party.

I exchanged the costume for Snow White from the same maker and it is also rather racy but not as revealing. I tried it on with the same blissful reaction...besides considering buying stock in Leg Avenue costumes...I realized that women might underestimate their sexual power as we see ourselves as ourselves and far more multi-faceted than this alone.

My husband agreed that I could go as Snow White. He said it was still revealing but it would do. Fine. I am happy and he is happy. This works for us.

My point is, it's about compromise every step of the way. Both partners in whatever relations they have must feel as if they are getting what they want from the relationship.

My main problem with your gospel is that it is one sided. You advocate a clear dominance/submission role. This can't, nor should it, work for everyone. There are times when I am dominant and my husband is submissive. We both believe at our core that the other is worthy of worship.

What I am saying is that in order for anything to work between the sexes both sexes must be included, considered and respected. It is like anything in life. It is about balance.
 
#266 ·
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Sounds like everybody is serious now!!!!!

I like all the posts above!!!!!!!

Everybody should read them!!!!!!!!

They are all good!!!!!!!!!!

Ha ha ha ha, you guys can keep on sharing sex details, I am going to spank my husband's butt and let him spank me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
 
#267 ·
Mem, never would I agree to sexual relations outside of our marriage. That is my deal breaker. I would look at my husband and all worship would dwindle away to nothing. If he can't be faithful in all of our up's and down's then I don't want to be with him on the up's or the down's. Again, this is me and this is him. He wouldn't tolerate it either. Sex has never been a problem for us at any stage of our marriage but if it is ever a problem and either one steps outside of the marriage we both recognize our deep, singular yet collective, connection would be gone.
 
#268 ·
You guys teach MEN to MAN UP and grow balls, it is important for their welfare. But please also teach them not to cheat, it is important for our welfare.

Men, problems? Women, problems?

Women, open your legs and let your men have some fun. It isn't a big deal. Better than them fishing else where. And don't crush your men's balls because what you get is nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And don't try those MMF, FFM, or GROUP, you are only going to burn your ass!!!!!
 
#271 ·
Simply Amorous when you say:

These days, with the way I feel, if he decided he was not "into" me & the sex dwindled down pathetically, I have as much told him I would NOT be able to handle this, I am very WEAK & most likely, in my desperation (as I won't beg) I would probably find myself a Lover. Again, this is NOT our situation, I can recall only 1 time in 21 yrs he was not "up" for having sex when I wanted him , so this is all talk. He does not feel the same as me (saying he would not take another) but he "accepts" that I feel this way, he understands it, and I guess it is not a threat to him as he feels the same as me, desiring a frequent sex life.
Perhaps I am a romantic but the thought of other men being my lover grosses me out. It doesn't appeal to me on any level whatsoever. Maybe this is because I'm satisfied and never haven't been in our relationship, I'm not sure. I thought this was because of the strong bond between us. My husband very well might feel differently but it's doubtful he would tell me as I'd take it as a betrayal since I am so submerged in our relationship. I'm going to ask him tonight and see what he says.
 
#272 ·
Perhaps I am a romantic but the thought of other men being my lover grosses me out. It doesn't appeal to me on any level whatsoever. Maybe this is because I'm satisfied and never haven't been in our relationship, I'm not sure. I thought this was because of the strong bond between us. My husband very well might feel differently but it's doubtful he would tell me as I'd take it as a betrayal since I am so submerged in our relationship. I'm going to ask him tonight and see what he says.
You aren't there. By what I have read from your posts, you're not anywhere near these circumstances. And when you aren't in the midst of feeling rejected, and consequently questioning everything about your relationship, it can be tough to imagine.

So in effect, asking your husband is only setting you both up. You have already indicated that were he to answer "Yes, I would look for another lover if you neither desired me, nor wanted to have sex." you would feel betrayed.

It's about setting an expectation, not making a demand. You aren't telling your partner what they MUST do. You are stating what you WILL do should these particular circumstances ever arise.

What is so different about it from stating "If you were to cheat on me, I would leave you." You are making a declaration, not a demand.
 
#277 ·
Maybe I'm thinking more along the lines of being unable to imagine our relationship as sexless and if it ever happened I would imagine it would be a physical condition or something out of our control that would cause it.

If I ever didn't have sex with my husband for 3 months and wasn't physically unable to then I think I must have fallen out of love with him and the end of our marriage had already begun rolling.

Why take on a lover though? Why not honestly end the marriage first and then take on a lover? I think my point is that if I'm in love then my desire for someone else is nil. If I have fallen out of love I'd want out for a chance to move on. Sex for me is nothing without deep, emotional connection.

I'll have the talk with my husband out of curiosity. I would feel betrayed but only briefly. I'd rather know the truth than not know at all. Feels weird to share intimate details on a forum but not bring it back to my husband. I inevitably always do. He and I had a long talk about what a big bad wolf is...haha. This came from a discussion over the dominance/submission big bad wolf advocates for and our roles/needs as men/women...that was an interesting convo! :rofl:
 
#279 · (Edited)
You are correlating sex with love. Many people don't. To be in a loving relationship, I require sex. But I don't require love to be in a sexual relationship - not anymore.

Why take on a lover? Because your marriage has become a functional business arrangement instead of an emotional and intimate refuge. You aren't getting those things from your spouse. But ... you have children, substantial common assets, and otherwise have a working relationship. Is it practical? Of course not, no more practical than staying with a spouse that has no intention of meeting your needs.

The subtle point that SA is making, is that denying your partner sex is no less a betrayal than having it with someone else. They are the same - and I agree. Come back to the bedroom and I will stop going to someone elses. That in a nutshell generally sums up the story that SA alluded to.

Here is the question to ask your husband:
"If I told you that I no longer wanted to have sex with you, felt no desire for you, and will generally be annoyed and angry if you even bring up the subject, could you accept that? And if not, what would you do?"

There is no 'baiting or leading' with that question.
 
#281 ·
Here is the question to ask your husband:
"If I told you that I no longer wanted to have sex with you, felt no desire for you, and will generally be annoyed and angry if you even bring up the subject, could you accept that? And if not, what would you do?"
Ouch! I wouldn't blame him for moving on in this case though as I will be the one who had betrayed him first. I will ask him.
 
#282 ·
There's your unconditional love, test. ;)
And in the event these circumstances seem extreme to you, I assure you they are real. They are the circumstances I was dealing with.




That's why God gave us tongues, and variable speed vibrators.

If your wife/husband had a physical ailment that prevented them from having sex. Say a man had prostate cancer and could not have an erection after treatment (happened to my uncle recently) would the woman still be justified in going to find a lover? Doesn't this defeat the entire marriage vows?

In other words, what if it truly isn't the other person's fault? Shouldn't they be able to rely on the for better or for worse?
 
#284 · (Edited)
I recall reading a thread on this very forum about a year ago- in the Successful marraige board I believe, this man forgave his wife for cheating with a neighbor man for 10 years straight !! Something completely outragous and unthinkable to us.

I was very very intreged by his story, what happened and how NOW they are greatly & deeply in love again after this pain. But noticed he did NOT go into great detail of his hand IN WHY she might have done this. And I knew in my heart, any good person can forgive more easy IF they know they might have caused some of the pain. So I took it upon myself, being ever so curious, to PM him and ask.....and as I suspected , He admitted he was not there for HER- for years on end. He was off being a Work a holic, rarely home, great provider and all of that, but could admit to NOT fullfilling her needs, I bet one of her love Languages was "Quality Time" , his probably not.

And becaues of this fact (His hand in the breakdown and her hurt) He was ABLE to forgive her. He got ALOT of slack on this forum for his forgiving her & taking her back. All kinds of names were thrown at his wife, but this man stood up for her, he loves her, he changed his ways , she changed hers, she regrets what she did from her heart and all is good now. Surely not the typical cheating story, but when one's needs are NOT being met in the marraige. I really think the one who is not meeting them, or grossly neglecting them should have more forgiveness and understanding.



Sounds like my husband's uncle.

Yesterday, I asked my husband what he would do if his wife didn't want sex. He said he would be nice to her, and find out why she wouldn't want sex. He would hold her and understand her. He said being Macho can't win a woman over, it would drive her away even further. He doesn't have this problem, so it is easy for him to say. But being seven years with him, I know he is a very understanding, caring, and loving man.

For sex, we are both erotic lovers and sensual lovers. Depends on who wants to come. When he wants to come, he just takes me whatever way he wants, never violent though, he is a gentleman. We never tried SM or toys, we just have passionate sex, I like it when he fxxxx me hard. When I want to come, he just lies there and let me have him, I get on top of him and wiggle wiggle wiggle, achieve my orgasm, it is the only way I can come since I come clitoral.

There are many types of men women like.

I love my husband!!!!! He has balls but he is not macho.
 
#286 ·
bbw said
If a man gives a woman everything she says she wants, becomes the nice guy, helps with the housework, compromises on his own career, helps with the kids, and still his woman ends up bored, full of angst, taking depression medication, no sex, nagging, and then from the blue ends up having a full blown PA with her boss, to most men why this happens is somewhat confusing.
This quotation highlights the problem I see in the arguments about what constitutes a "nice guy."

"Giving a woman everything she wants" is the problem--NOT doing housework, making career choices that support family life, or doing his fair share with the kids (who are, after all, just as much his responsibility as hers). "Giving a woman everything she wants" usually means, having no backbone, refusing to take a stand, and letting the FEAR of being left alone guide his every decision.

If a man does housework or childcare b/c he is trying to be a nice guy--not because he has a deep conviction it is essential to true parnership--then he does it out of weakness, not strength. If he REFUSES to do housework, etc., b/c he thinks it is "unmanly," then he is equally weak--in the clutch of outdated AND historically inaccurate stereotypes.

I know men who do every bit as much at home as their wives, who do it as a matter of course, who never "help" but rather, assume responsibility. And they do not let their wives walk all over them. They know as much as she does about the family's needs, so they will take a stand to defend their position in a disagreement--not "bow" to her b/c she is female, or out of fear of making her angry. They are married to women who are just the same--able to recognize that femaleness does not give some instintive right to more power over home and children, able to recognize and value logical discourse. Such couples rarely reach a critical stalemate b/c they have such deep respect, as well as love and lust, for each other.

Seeing women, as a group, as more emotional and naturally "submissive," is inherently sexist--because you are classifying them by their sex. Women get called "more emotional" when, in fact, all they tend to do (because it is more socially acceptable) is EXPRESS their feelings more openly. Men have just as many feelings as women (we are the same species, after all), although men are socialized to express their emotions less freely and, when they do, to express them in forms of aggression (anger, particularly).

Let's not confuse socially-guided behaviors with biology. That goes for testosterone, too. More T makes one horny (lots of women who have been pregnant with boys can attest to that). Our society teaches people how to channel extra energy; we do not have an "instinct" that tells us to weep rather than rage (if it was instinct, it would be seen 100% of the time with no exceptions).

We have started to leave behind a world in which women and men were assumed to have certain characteristics by virtue of their biology. Historical and cross-cultural studies have demonstrated, again and again, the falseness of such claims--behaviors assumed to be "inherent" to female physiology, for example, were absent in different times/places. The logical conclusion, then, is that those behaviors were culturally specific and people were socialized into culturally acceptable behaviors--ie, it wasn't biology.

So if you think your problem was in being a "nice guy," then think again. Maybe you just need to understand that being "nice" doesn't mean being spineless. And it certainly does not mean being "p*ssy-whipped." Have enough confidence to believe that you are worthwhile and desirable, and act that way. THAT'S attractive!
 
#292 ·
Sister359,

As usualy, you type out much facts and truth I agree with, with only a point or two in contention between us.

For instance, to say a "nice guy" is these things:

"Giving a woman everything she wants" is the problem--NOT doing housework, making career choices that support family life, or doing his fair share with the kids (who are, after all, just as much his responsibility as hers). "Giving a woman everything she wants" usually means, having no backbone, refusing to take a stand, and letting the FEAR of being left alone guide his every decision.
And these things:

If a man does housework or childcare b/c he is trying to be a nice guy--not because he has a deep conviction it is essential to true parnership--then he does it out of weakness, not strength.
Are correct.

Then I see something like this:

If he REFUSES to do housework, etc., b/c he thinks it is "unmanly," then he is equally weak--in the clutch of outdated AND historically inaccurate stereotypes.
Which is only a half truth, combined with some notion of being "outdated" or something that I assume means something to you.

Outdated or not, there is nothing, NOTHING sexually attractive to a woman to see her man behaving as another woman, or for a man to see a woman trying to behave as a man.


Seeing women, as a group, as more emotional and naturally "submissive," is inherently sexist--because you are classifying them by their sex.
So? :scratchhead:

Let's not confuse socially-guided behaviors with biology.
If we were to do that, we would have no need for marriage help forums as these. :)

We have started to leave behind a world in which women and men were assumed to have certain characteristics by virtue of their biology.
Perhaps a world where divorce rates climb to over 50%, and that's not considering the many sexually negligent relationships where one or more of the spouses are miserable and unwilling to seperate.

A world where a man is afraid or shamed to be a man, and those that do this shaming are applauded.

A world poisoned by a social labyrinth of hoops created by feminist propagandists to try to concoct a twisted self-fulfilling prophecy that men are either outdated cavemen or a spineless bumbling oafs that exist for no other reason than to serve women.

To such a world, thanks but no thanks.

I'll stick with the reality of my world.

A world where both men and women feel free to express themselves and speak openly about themselves, where ideas stand or fall based on effectiveness, not whether a man or woman is doing the speaking.

A world where a woman is not ashamed to be a woman, to let down her defenses, because there is not the need to pretend to be a man.

A world where the good man is free to pursue his dreams and desires, to not have to navigate inhospitable waters of a social construct openly hostile to him simply because he has a penis. To all good men, I encourage you to never feed such a construct, but to avoid it, ignore it, and pursue and find your bliss despite it!

For we know that a woman will test her man.

The man that passes these test, for such a man has earned the respect and attraction of his woman.

The man that fails these tests, a woman will seeth contempt for this man, and resent such a man for being weak.

These are " fitness tests ", or also called " $h!t tests ".

So to understand this, and apply to a social construct, is to understand what we call Feminism, including all it's insidious forms, and how to deal with it as it arises now and then in your own life.



So if you think your problem was in being a "nice guy," then think again. Maybe you just need to understand that being "nice" doesn't mean being spineless. And it certainly does not mean being "p*ssy-whipped." Have enough confidence to believe that you are worthwhile and desirable, and act that way. THAT'S attractive!
Exactly well put. The good man boldly and confidently expressing dominance is attractive to a woman.

Never, I mean NEVER buy into a notion that the solution to being a "nice guy" is to become a "nicer guy" !!!
 
#287 ·
Please don't fight and argue.

We are all here trying to help, not to take shot at each other.

Some women like powerful men, some women like gentlemen. Some women like rich life style, some women like simple life style, we are all different. If there is cure for mankind's problems, this world will be peaceful and beautiful.

I do think men should stand up for themselves and don't spoil their women too much. The more you give in, the more she wants. Vice versa.

But the sad part here is, when a man isn't happy in a marriage, he leaves, he can still support himself financially. But if a woman is in a sad marriage, I mean she had been a good woman all along, she doesn't have much bargain power. She is financially dependent.

Read so many posts, man want to leave, but they don't need to worry about money. How about women, if they divorce, they have to start worrying about money right away, especially if they have kids.

A lot of women are stuck in unhappy marriages too, their men are just irresponsible as what you can call, I don't want to make a list, they are stuck, they are unhappy, they are drying without sex. What can they do?

Life is not easy, if you want something easy, don't become human.
 
#290 ·
Please don't fight and argue.

We are all here trying to help, not to take shot at each other.
I must have missed the shot. Greenpearl, I do not see any of this as arguring at all, or fighting. It is simply learning. I absolutely LOVE debate, or I should call it a challenge to the mind. I love to hear others opionions, hear their stories, even when I might not agree, sometimes I want to read those ones MORE so, so I can add something , even if very small, to the conversation to bring another persceptive. This is all good!!

I think we are all learning here, not fighting.

What bothers you, I am afraid -I ENJOY!! :)
 
#294 ·
Just to let you guys know that I was being corrected by my 13-year-old son today. I was sitting improperly. My husband was laughing at me because I was corrected by son again. I get corrected by my son a lot now! Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, I was happy. I was proud. My son knows what his mother did was right or wrong. I don't mind being corrected by him. I put my legs together and sat up like a LADY!!!

MY WONDERFUL SON AND WONDERFUL HUSBAND!
 
This post has been deleted
#298 ·
As you may imagine “conflict” between my wife and me was very hard and sometimes impossible to resolve, things just got buried but not forgotten. I think this was basically because with my style I see conflict as a good thing, an opportunity for improvement and my wife saw it as a bad thing.

I wonder where the nice guys would put themselves?

I also see Conflict exactly as you do- an opportunity for improvement.

As for my Nice Guy Husband, he does not welcome conflict, or pursue it (as I would ) but once in it- he never runs, he stands firm, he desires resolution as much as I, things are never buried & he is fully able to forgive & never bring that incident up again, but grow from it.

AFEH - where did your original post go ? I don't see it now.
 
#300 ·
BBW...
I am not sure what message you are trying to convey here. Most men don't think of themselves as rapists at all! Unless they have actually raped a women, I doubt that their sexual actions would come across as rape.
Am I wrong in thinking that you and your wife of 21 years have a BDSM relationship? Nothing wrong with that but you seem to think that many others have a "rapist" mentality. I think I read it wrong so apologizes in advance as emotions rarely come through in posts.
 
#302 ·
BBW...
I am not sure what message you are trying to convey here. Most men don't think of themselves as rapists at all! Unless they have actually raped a women, I doubt that their sexual actions would come across as rape.
This is a good topic, and probably deserving it's own thread.

First, there is the tendancy of the "nice guy" to try to empathize with what he thinks a woman wants him to feel (what really is more along the lines of what he thinks she wants him to say).

So in this, the nice guy will often agree to a woman to say some man behaving dominant is a jerk, or arrogant, or controlling, or full of himself, etc etc etc.

So in the emotionally and politically charged issue of rape, a man hears how horrible a rape is from a woman, but in his mind is imagining the act itself, aggressive violence involving sexual organs.

So he concludes, wrongly but understandably, that rape is horrible because it is aggresive sex.


Therefore, in the mind of the nice guy, is planted this terrible lie, that aggressive sex is bad. :mad:

And this lie leads to so much misery between men and women I cannot even begin to type this out, but just look at this forum as example of this testimony.

But the reality is, and the man often misses this because he doesn't listen or the woman is unwilling to discuss these horrible details, is that rape is bad moreso in her mind emotionally 100 times worse than the mere physical attack.

So in this way, a woman will plainly say "rape is not sex", but even though the good man will often agree, he is not always truly understanding why this is so.

So good men, understand this, aggressive sex between you and the woman that you desire, and who desires you, is not "bad", and it is certainly not rape!


Am I wrong in thinking that you and your wife of 21 years have a BDSM relationship? Nothing wrong with that but you seem to think that many others have a "rapist" mentality. I think I read it wrong so apologizes in advance as emotions rarely come through in posts.
Rape fantasy, or what I call "ravishment fantasy" for respect to victims of sexual assault, is very common among men and women alike.

But sharing these fantasies between men and women, there is much stigma.

My wife and myself, to say BDSM would not be accurate between us, although in some elements we share with BDSM, like the "safeword" we have between us to protect trust at all times.

Although her fantasies are along those lines (we often debate which of us has the darker desires), our relationship however unique, would closer be defined as I have seen online as the "taken in hand" relationship.

Although that exact movement and particularly the most common website devoted to it, is far too structured and rigid to be accurate.

My wife has asked me a long time ago point blank to avoid the taken in hand website and as well any external means to dictate in my own leadership sexually in our relationship, and I respect that.

Non the less, the similarities are there (spanking is hard to miss), but I am only sharing this to give your question and honest and sincere answer.
 
#303 ·
SA,

I agree we are all different, and we enjoy what we have.

I do get very aroused when my husband gets behind me, spanks my butt, grabs my hair, bites my neck, grabs my breasts very firmly, fxxxx me hard, I get very very aroused because I feel he lusts after me. I moan very happily. The happier I moan, the hornier my husband becomes, it is just wild..................
 
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