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Modern Men (Warning...long)

47K views 437 replies 38 participants last post by  Deejo 
#1 ·
I've been on marriage sites like this one for years trying to figure out what was wrong with my marriage. Over the last 13 years the relationship dynamic has changed between my wife and I.

I did everything that is considered the gold standard to try to put us back on the right course. I helped with the cleaning, I cooked, I did dishes, helped with the laundry, prepared surprise romantic dinners, teased her, left love notes, everything everyone suggests to try to "get her in the mood".

Nothing worked. My wife never really flat out rejected me much. Mostly she just ignored my advances, which, to be honest, was worse than straight rejections. I did have my share of rejection but more often than not she would just ignore me.

I blamed her for a lot of the problems. It was her fault I was our sex life sucked, it was her fault I wasn't happy.

Then I started stumbling across posts from different men on the forums I had visited. People like MEM, BigBadWolf, and others. The things they said seemed alien to me at the time.

When I was growing up, my mother was the authority figure in the home. My dad was a passive, hard working, honest man who never really made a decision of his own in his life. At times though, he held a lot of anger. He was passive-aggressive, but not often. Never abusive, and always terrified of making my mother angry. I would always hear him telling his friends and co-workers, "I can't do that, it would upset my wife." To me, this was normal. And it was, with all my male relatives. Their wives ran the house, the husbands brought home the money in most cases.

To get to the point, most of the men in my family, circle of friends, and co-workers were this exact same way...and so was I.

From the time I was a boy, I was taught to treat women like princesses. To put them on a pedestal. I was taught to treat my sister different than I would treat my brother. Taking queues from my male role models, I learned that the way to make a woman deliriously happy was to give in to her every whim. To do everything she asked, even if I it was the last thing I wanted to do, because it made them happy. I was that, and I saw it through example. This "education" translated to others as well. If anyone would ask me for help, I was there. I would do anything for anyone, and I did.

From reading posts from people like MEM and BBW, I couldn't quite grasp what they were saying. I mean, I did, but it didn't make any sense. So, I started reading more. Articles on male dominance, etc. Things started to make sense, but dominance as it was being explained sounded like I would just be another a-hole. There was a balance that was missing.

I eventually noticed quite a few threads around the net referring to a book called "No More Mr. Nice Guy". I bought it and read it and in that book I found the balance I was thought was missing.

My problem was the true lack of a MALE role model in growing up. There were few MEN that I could have looked to. My maternal Grandfather was the only on.

You, I learned the problem with most modern men (the last two or three generations) is that we have, for the most part, lost how to actually be men.

We have no boundaries to what type of behaviors are unacceptable to us. We put up with nagging, *****ing, public scolding, and a whole laundry list of other things. Why? Because we don't have the balls to draw the line in fear of "angering the wife". We have no regard for our OWN happiness, and therefore, most of us are miserable in relationships.

We do everything for our wives and nothing for ourselves. We say things like, "Honey, I'd really like to have a new XXXX. Can I buy one please?" Exactly like we did when we were little boys. I don't know what woman finds actions such as this attractive.

The other thing that women I've talked to find irritating and unattractive is the old, "I don't care, whatever you want." This ranges from wanting input on paint colors for the house to where to go for dinner. We have an opinion, why are we afraid to express it? This example, I believe, is a woman offering her man an opportunity to lead. Women WILL test us to see if we are willing to 1) lead 2) protect and 3) provide.

I will admit, through almost all of my marriage, I was a solid provider, but that was it. I gave up all my friends and hobbies, for my wife. This always gnawed at me, but I was "taught" this was the way things were.

After looking at all the married men around me and having my eyes opened, I saw it was the way things were, but not the way things "should" be. All the things I was expected to give up, and that my wife didn't approve of, she had, and I didn't.

Where I asked permission to buy something, she just bought it. Where I asked permission to go out, she just told me and went.

Slowly, over time, she lost all sexual interest in me, but she was happy with the life I provide her and she was ok with things the way they were. After finally figuring myself out, and finally understanding what she really wanted from me, I started changing. So far, it has been tough for us both. She resists because I'm upsetting her apple cart. I'm taking her out of her comfort zone, but I finally realized that was NOT the life I wanted to lead. I WILL not lead that life, even if it means parting ways.

It was an eye opening day when I realized all the men I was surrounded by, myself included, had no balls. We were/are AFRAID of our wives and would not stand up for ourselves for anything. We are getting exactly the life we deserve.

Oddly enough, I notice it everywhere now and it is a constant reminder to keep working on myself. If you want to know what I'm talking about, watch any of the husband / wife type sitcoms on TV.

I learned that my wife can NOT make me happy, only I can. My wife is there kind of like a polish, to make that happiness just that more beautiful to experience. We are far from there, and may not get there, but I'm now willing to pursue my happiness, with or without her.

Anyway, I see a lot of the same traits from most of the men that post here who have the same problems I'm trying to correct now. I'm having some success, but its going to be a long road.

We, as men, have to relearn how to be men.
 
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#40 ·
What happened to Romance?

I’m of the opinion that a lot of women don’t know what a man’s love for them is. I think they see “love” in their terms, not in the man’s terms. They just can’t comprehend a man’s love, it’s way beyond their comprehension.

I think for a lot of wives marriage is a duty. I think for a lot of husbands, marriage is a romance.

I think a wife gets an inkling of what their husband’s love for them was after the husband’s “fallen out of love” with her and he’s left.

Men are as capable of falling quickly out of love as they are as capable of falling quickly into love. It’s the nature of the beast in the man.

I don’t think a man can actually live with his wife once he’s realised he is no longer in love with her and therefore there is no romance in the marriage. I think men are far more romantic than woman. If the “romance” he felt for his wife has left him he will leave and once he does it has truly ended.

Man needs to feel romantic towards his wife. If he doesn’t he will end his marriage and in time look for romance elsewhere. It’s the “romance” or “romantic ideal” that keeps the man going through all the trials and tribulations in a marriage. Once a man has lost his romance, he will no longer be able to tolerate the trials and tribulations.

Bob
 
#42 ·
Bob,

You put me to think!!!!!
I always want to find out why men lose interest in their wives after they are married for a couple of years. Men are not attracted to their women because the wives are: complaining and nagging? demanding and whiny? sloppy and heavy?
What you said really makes me think!!! Men want romance to be there all the time!!! I always ask myself why my husband and I are still so in love with each other. I feel that we always have that ROMANCE going! I feel we are still dating! We just feel sweet spending time together. We feel sweet when we make love. He calls me" MY WIFE!!!!!" very passionately.

ROMANCE, KEEP THAT FEELING GOING!!!

YOU MAKE ME THINK!!!
 
#41 · (Edited)
A friend at this forum asked me to contribute to this thread because she likes my contributions (and I appreciate the compliment).

What can I say? There is a lot of wisdom in this thread so much floating that I think psychologists should be reading it for their marriage counseling.

Let's see. . .what can I add?

Well, let me throw this out there for "controversial debate":

I was looking for a new place as I settle down in my divorce and I met this neat old guy who owned some properties in Ocean City, NJ. We got to talking and I told him that even in my divorce my wife is trying to control my actions, which was why I was hesitant to sign a lease.

Her latest ploy is: "If you don't do this, I'm going to move away with the kids! If you don't do that, I'm going to move away with the kids!" The funny thing is, since finding "my balls", I don't really care. I think it's "precious" another man wants to raise my offspring. If he wants, I'll plant some more of my seed in her and he can raise the next one too. It's very cavalier of me and very out of character of me, being the "good father" in the past. . .but what can I say? I found my balls. And they're working - they are producing testosterone. And sometimes that does mean I err on the side of being a jerk, just like having ovaries, producing estrogen, you will err on the side of being a b**ch sometimes.

Anyway, he asked, "Is she educated? Educated women are usually controlling."

I replied, "Yeah, as a matter of fact, she is."

I think to the fact now I am involved in a relationship (on again, off again) with a woman who says, "You are the nicest person I have ever met." the other day and she is trying to control me in certain subconcious ways (through sex, etc; she is already telling me I need to remodel the kitchen in my new place and manipulating the situation that my days off are with her vs. my kids)

So. . .I am going to float a controversial theory here. . .not that education per se has been a bad boon to women. . .it's been a good development for them. . .but female education has been a bad boon for marriages It may be that education gives women a lot of leverage in any social situation (and marriage is a social situation). So any woman that has a propensity for being controlling (and let's face it - that's a lot of women, maybe 60-70%?) and women who crave that conflict that BBW speaks of (maybe 60-70%). . .well crap, you often have a mismatch, especially when now. . .she is with a Nice guy.

*Writing on chalkboard to class some formulas* ;)

NICE GUY + EDUCATED WOMEN = MARITIAL DISASTER

ASSERTIVE, UNEDUCATED GUY + EDUCATED WOMEN = MARITAL POSSIBILITY

UNEDUCATED WOMAN + EDUCATED, NICE GUY (has leverage) = GOOD MARRIAGE

EDUCATED, ASSERTIVE MAN + EDUCATED WOMAN = MARITAL POSSIBILITY

Men, if you are going to marry an educated woman, you have a greater responsibility to being assertive, confident, and dominant in the social situation as women generally won't want to end up being the leader and will secretly crave the construction worker, tool belt and all, no shirt, hooting and whistling at them on the way to work in the city in their work attire. Or the dominant executive in a white shirt and suit. She'll look at them and say, "Wow. . .I wish my husband was like that" ( a form of lust )

At the very least, I must admit, not being one for constant conflict, I just played for stalemate with my stb-x, instead of trying to win and establish dominance. I would only just try to subtlely show her the flaws in her past arguments with my stb-x.

I do know this - what BBW and MEM speak of is entirely correct in this thread so I am not sure if the poster who invited me in for "balance" will appreciate this. Instead of "balance", I tend to just offer controversy..

So, to not disappoint the poster/friend who invited me here. . .let me tie together a lot of the thoughts here with my contoversial theory:

I am not suggesting we go back to a society like the Taliban or other fundamental Muslim/fundamental Christian communities. That would certainly not be fun. I enjoy being around women like Greenpearl, Simplyamorous, atruckersgirl, and even the women like Susan2010 who I have had conflict with in the past. I know they are all educated and are able to hold their own in any discussion. I am not threatened by any of you "Modern Women" to stay with the theme of this thread.

But perhaps our young women should enter into college with the Disclaimer:

Caution. A college education and enlightenment may be harzardous to any future relationship. Please attend Professor Scannerguard's class upon exit.

Yeah, there are exceptions when you see the 2 classic professors, woman and men existing in a gender neutral relationship (the fictional Frazier and Lilleth ended up divorced tho, didn't they? And Frazier also dated many educated women in his future show all ending up failing. . .subtle writer message?), each pursueing their careers and treating each other as equals.

But let's face it - what seems to sociologically work better (not perfect) is a traditional marraige where the man is the leader, offers wisdom and decisiveness, and the woman offers council.

Perhaps the Muslims are onto something when it comes to families and marriages and thank God we live a society where we encourage them to build mosques and are welcome here to offer what good they have and remind of us what worked in the past and melt into our great "melting pot", huh?
 
#50 ·
So. . .I am going to float a controversial theory here. . .not that education per se has been a bad boon to women. . .it's been a good development for them. . .but female education has been a bad boon for marriages It may be that education gives women a lot of leverage in any social situation (and marriage is a social situation). So any woman that has a propensity for being controlling (and let's face it - that's a lot of women, maybe 60-70%?) and women who crave that conflict that BBW speaks of (maybe 60-70%). . .well crap, you often have a mismatch, especially when now. . .she is with a Nice guy.
My wife is a year or so away from finishing up her PHd, so I feel she counts as a highly educated female. Being a smarter female she's not as willing to put up with BS answers or the "Because I said so" stuff, I agree. She will let her opinion be known on a topic whenever it is up for debate. But, she will recognize reason, she will listen to my arguments and she will change her view when my arguments have merit. I LOVE the fact that she offers me a challenge. I have to have my arguments backed up and be able to defend them, and that's great!

My wife runs ALL over my brother-in-law and some of my other friends who are your typical "nice-guy". They don't understand how I can be as happy as I am with her. They think of her as difficult, hard headed and a bit ****y. Yet for me, I see her in a totally different light because I'm not afraid to step up and say my piece. I think that's why our marriage works, is I am confident, I am aggressive and my wife reacts positively to that part of my nature. I like to say my wife is like a shark, if she doesn't smell blood she's perfectly safe. If she smells blood though, she will go in for the kill and tear you up. :) Yet to me, shes gentle, loving, caring and sweet. It's funny seeing my boys as they are getting older watch my wife and my relationship vs her relationship with her brother. I'm hoping through seeing me though they learn how to be that assertive, aggressive and caring man. As for the little girl I have coming? Oh man, that's gonna be a ride!!! :smthumbup:

So scanner, I agree with your hypothesis as far as my "research" goes into the topic. :D But I will say I would rather have the educated, tough and challenging female rather then someone who is completely meek. I think with my personality I would tend to be overbearing to that kind of person.
 
#43 ·
Scannerguard

Finished your post sentence by sentence. :) :) :)
You are talking about something very interesting here. Women with high education tend to cause problems. You know what, after I finished your post, I agree with you!!!

I think they become more arrogant, more opinionated! They don't have the respect they should have for their husbands. So you always see successful career women with unsuccessful marriages.
Women with low education know that they are limited, so they are more humble, and that's what men want from a relationship( Hope I am not wrong). I still think men have the instinct to protect their women, not being bossed by their women.

And I think what people need is wisdom, not high education. knowledge is not wisdom. A woman with high education can be an idiot in many ways!!!

I am OK educated! :) :) :)
 
#46 ·
Even if educated women do become more opinionated, does that mean men should just sit there and take it? I don't understand why women are the problem in this scenerio. Women today have to be educated. We have to work. We can't depend on men to take care of us like we did 50 years ago. That being said, if women have raised their level of independence, why can't men meet them there? Why can't men rise to that level and STILL be dominant? As far as I can tell, women have adapted to the modern world and men haven't come up to that level. There is no reason why a man can't still put an educated woman in her place. Even if women are educated, they are still women. A man should be a man regardless.
 
#44 ·
I think there has been some confusion here over my use of dominance and the dominant male. What a lot of you are describing are the a-hole trains I mentioned in this paragraph:

Boogsie said:
From reading posts from people like MEM and BBW, I couldn't quite grasp what they were saying. I mean, I did, but it didn't make any sense. So, I started reading more. Articles on male dominance, etc. Things started to make sense, but dominance as it was being explained sounded like I would just be another a-hole. There was a balance that was missing.
I'll give you an example of what "I" see as me being the dominant male. My wife and I, for the last 5 or so years have only be exchanging "grandmother" or "aunt" kisses with each other. You know, the quick peck on the lips. This is something that, in the past, I had requested (a.k.a. asked) that we stop. She said ok. But it didn't. So, I told her, "You aren't my grandmother and I'm not your grandfather. There will be no more relative kisses. If you want to kiss me, kiss me properly, like I'm your husband.".

Her response was, "I don't have to shove my tongue down your throat every time I kiss you."

I said, "Yes, you do."

After that we've not had any problems with the kisses. Sure, she will push back every now and again to test my mettle, but I WILL NOT back down on things I have to demand. If she has an aversion to kissing me passionately then we have no reason being married.

As I said above, there is a balance. There are situations where it is required. I don't ever expect to be obeyed. She clearly has the option to tell me that my demand for her to properly kiss me is over the line. She didn't.
 
#45 ·
Scannerguard - I have to say I agree with you on some level. I'm an educated woman. My husband is not formally educated. I'm a corporate professional and he's a blue collar guy. The type of stuff I read men saying in this forum baffles me. My husband would never put up with it and the truth is, that's why I married him.

I dated a lot of guys in college who were very nice, but wimpy as all get out. I remember going out with a guy who was in college with me. Very educated and nice. We went to the movies and some kids were being loud and obnoxious behind us. My date didn't do anything. Needless to say I didn't go out with him again.

Now my husband, when we were dating would defend me at the drop of a hat. To this day, if he even suspects someone is disrespecting me he will have words with them. We've never had a lot of money, but he makes me feel safe. He makes me feel like when I'm with him, no harm will come to me.

I agree with you that education (as well as women's lib) have taken a tremendous toll on how women view marriage and relationships in general, but that doesn't excuse men backing down like a bunch of spineless punks. Are they afraid of women? If so, why? Because of the world we live in, women have had to become more assertive. We have to get jobs and we can't act like submissive docile little creatures in a corporate atmosphere. The trick is to switch from our dominante persona in the workplace to our agreeable "yes dear" attitudes at home. It's not easy and women of past generations didn't have to wear so many hats.

The point is as much as education and working women have ruined the traditional gender roles in marriage and parenthood, the same can be said of men. Just because women have changed (in large part out of necessity), that doesn't mean men had to follow suit. That goes to show how influential women are to men.
 
#48 ·
I dated a lot of guys in college who were very nice, but wimpy as all get out. I remember going out with a guy who was in college with me. Very educated and nice. We went to the movies and some kids were being loud and obnoxious behind us. My date didn't do anything. Needless to say I didn't go out with him again.
And this is the bite in the @$$. As you said, gender roles are gone in the modern world. We are equals in everything. The way we are raised these days says that we are all equals and you don't NEED protection. If you don't like those rowdy kids, you will stand up and tell them yourselves! Or at least that is how we are taught. You can do anything we can do and you don't NEED us to protect you, and we don't need you to protect us.

Where this really effs things up is though this is the common held belief today it totally goes against baser level instincts over which we have no control.
 
#47 ·
Greenpearl,

Thanks for the compliment. Now. . .can you be the innocent student and I be the older, wiser professor? :)

Themrs,

Thank you for your additional thoughts. Your post was the perfect addition to my post, offering the "Yang" perspective. Yes, I imagine the "yes, dear" attitude doesn't work in corporate America too well, except, here's the kicker:

Women are starting to outperform men in corporate America, so much so, we may reach a point where we are surpassing the # of women working over the # of men working. Especially with the real estate collapse and construction workers out of so much work.

Corporations know very well a woman will do the same job, often better, and for less money.

So, speaking a business person myself, why would I hire a man, when a woman can do the same job, for better?

Why do I care if contribute to a declining marriage and society? I'm about profit.

Men can't figure it out what we are supposed to do in this society.

Perhaps one day with genetic engineering and this newly engineered society, we will only need eggs, no sperm and the male will become a lost genetic byproduct. A hairy, unevolved primate of years past who scratched himself, drank beer, and cursed at the Philadelphia Eagles :)
 
#49 ·
Themrs:

Our posts crossed.

I kinda knew when I posted this controversial theory that some women would start to get threatened by my theory that education is the problem.

Again, to repeat - it's a boon for women but it has not been a boon for marriages. (that's the theory)

I just think, well. . .educated women are a little more of a burden for the married man. Knowing what I know now, when my sons someday bring a home a nice piece of tail and tell me "Hey Dad, I'm getting married. How about that?", I will take them aside and perhaps hand them this thread and tell them that you are about to have your hands full if there is a BA or a BS (or worse - a MBA, MS, MD or PhD after their name). In the meantime, I had better teach them what it means to be a man in this Brave New World.

I have even extended this theory to the fact when I remarry, I think I want a woman who is less educated than me as I start to scan "the marketplace."

Just a woman has a right to seek out an educated man, I think I as a man have a right to seek out an uneducated woman and not have to deal with all that.

Or I extend the extra effort on an educated woman.

But is it really worth it? What do I get out of it by extending the extra effort? Perhaps a better lifestyle. . .not sure what else.

Something I am meditating on.
 
#54 ·
I wouldn't judge you if you did go out and get a check out girl as your next wife. I'm not threatened by the theory that educated women make for poorer wives. I think there is an element of truth to it.

Still, what are women supposed to do? Women already feel like in order to attract a man they have to "dumb down" and make him feel like he's smarter than her. We already feel like even if we have a better solution to the problem, we'd better let our man figure it out for fear of crushing his oh so fragile ego. Educated women already feel as if men are threatened by their knowledge and opinions so many of them have opted to not marry at all. At my very office I know of two unmarried women who decided to go to sperm banks and bypass the man all together. It would never be my choice, but I understand why they do it.
 
#53 · (Edited)
Crysys:

Well remember, this is all just "theory and conjecture".

What will be interesting is to report back here on my experience with dating an uneducated woman, as I would like to date at least one as I shop.

I have recently been hitting on a medical assistant (relatively less educated - they do have a certification so I don't mean to demean that very necessary field). Anyway, she is below me in education - no formal college, or an advanced degree like me, just trade school.

I have to say I have never dated a less educated woman.

I call her up and she says, "How the phuck are you doing there, Scannerguard!!! Good to hear from you!!!!" I actually smiled on the other end at her well, "unlady-like" greeting. SHe is definitley a well, "country girl" but at times, I see some life wisdom come through and she has surprised me.

I think the risk for me is ending up in a Professor Higgins/Eliza (was that the character's name) relationship where I try to culture her. I guess that's a form of being overbearing.

So. . .that is a benefit of an educated woman besides a better lifestyle. You can take her anywhere.

But then again, I don't go cultured places anyway as a cultured, educated guy.

Deep down, I'm a hairy, football-watching, scrotum scratching male who surfs and just wants a beach trailer near the Jersey shore.

The bedroom will be the test :)
 
#55 ·
Crysys:

Well remember, this is all just "theory and conjecture".

What will be interesting is to report back here on my experience with dating an uneducated woman, as I would like to date at least one as I shop.

I have recently been hitting on a medical assistant (relatively unedcated - they do have a certification so I don't mean to demean that very necessary field). Anyway, she is below me in education - no formal college, or an advanced degree like me, just trade school.

I have to say I have never dated an uneducated woman.

I call her up and she says, "How the phuck are you doing there, Scannerguard!!! Good to hear from you!!!!" I actually smiled on the other end at her well, "unlady-like" greeting. SHe is definitley a well, "country girl" but at times, I see some life wisdom come through and she has surprised me.

I think the risk for me is ending up in a Professor Higgins/Eliza (was that the character's name) relationship where I try to culture her. I guess that's a form of being overbearing.

So. . .that is a benefit of an educated woman besides a better lifestyle. You can take her anywhere.

But then again, I don't go cultured places anyway as a cultured, educated guy.

Deep down, I'm a hairy, football-watching, scrotum scratching male who surfs and just wants a beach trailer near the Jersey shore.

The bedroom will be the test :)
:rofl::rofl::rofl::D:D:D
 
#58 ·
I want to add something on this "less educated" woman.

Early on in my divorce, I was under terrible emotional distress, grappling with teh fact my wife was bringing another man in the house with my kids, almost immediately.

She offered me something this forum nor any educated person offered.

And it was so simple:

"You want a man in there who will be good to your kids. That's all."

So simple, yet so elegant.

So, while I may have more formal education, I think a partner who may work for me may be one who has less formal education (college) but one who has had a lot of life experience education.

I think that complements me.

All this serious "life stuff" - divorce, child support, dating over 40. . .I lived in an insulated world. I think a woman who lived in that world (had it hard growing up) complements me.

Sorry to talk about myself. . .just got me thinking.
 
#59 ·
Themrs:

I know I have the right to date who I want. I am challenging my own pre-conceived notion that I should be with a woman who is nearly my equal in formal education, that if I am with a woman who is less educated, I will have nothing to talk about. I would have never considered a "check-out girl" before;

Now PhD's over 40 and manless, guess what? You got competition if you are in the market for a partner. You are competing with the check out girl and I don't care if you did your thesis on the Political ramifications of Post-Cold War Reaganomics on the mating habits of Tse-tse flies.

I am not sure if I am asking the woman to "dumb down". . .perhaps just exercise their education differently in the confines of marriage.

I think it's the woman's job to be "council" in the marriage and that's what BBW and MEM et al are saying.

They can certainly be a "brainy council" (a hot secretary with hair in a bun and glasses librarian look in fact :) ). . .but that's just it. They are just council.

They are the President's Cabinet and the end of the day, your husband is President Obama or President Bush, depending on your political views and they should make it known by saying, "Whatever you say, Mr. President." And any President worth his muster should listen to his council and probably do what they advise 95% of the time.

So. . .the wife is right 95% of the time. . .but the wife let's his husband know in unequivicoal terms, it's HIS CALL, not hers.

Okay, I blew enough of my day here. . .I'll check back tonight on this interesting discussion.
 
#66 ·
Themrs:



I think it's the woman's job to be "council" in the marriage and that's what BBW and MEM et al are saying.

They can certainly be a "brainy council" (a hot secretary with hair in a bun and glasses librarian look in fact :) ). . .but that's just it. They are just council.

They are the President's Cabinet and the end of the day, your husband is President Obama or President Bush, depending on your political views and they should make it known by saying, "Whatever you say, Mr. President." And any President worth his muster should listen to his council and probably do what they advise 95% of the time.

QUOTE]

Hey, I'm not arguing with you at all. It may surprise you to know that I'm 29 years old and I've seen enough to know that this is what a man wants. Plain and simple. Unlike most women my age, I do not have a problem with it at all. I've never seen a company successfully run with two CEOs.

I consider myself a modern day submissive wife. I choose to be submissive to my husband because at the end of the day it's better for my marriage and it frees me of the burden of having to do most of the thinking. I have no desire to be in control, even though I know I'm more than capable.

One example I can think of that recently happened was our car broke down. My husband asked his "mechanic" friend to take a look at it and the cost he came back with was too much for us to pay at the time. Weeks passed and I found out that the "mechanic" my husband trusted wasn't really all that trustworthy, so I suggested he get a second opinion. My husband didn't think I was right, so I let it go. Months passed. We were working with one car to get us back and forth to work and the kids to school. It was hard, but my husband didn't think we had the money to get the car fixed. Finally, our other car went on us. We had to do something and since the 1st broken car was closer to a shop, we took that one in. Guess what? The car needed WAY less work than the "mechanic" had estimated. I was right and we could have afforded it all along. My husband was embarassed, but I told him that it was an honest mistake that could have happened to anyone.

I could have nagged him the entire 4 months I was out of a car, but I chose not too. I could have reminded him day after day that we needed the car fixed, but I knew he already knew that. I could have just had the car towed to the shop and payed for it myself, but I didn't. The key is I trusted him to figure it out on his own and I swallowed my own pride and convenience while he worked it out. That is being a submissive wife. It's ALLOWING your husband to make mistakes and not coming down on him when he does and it's not easy for most modern women to do. At the end of the day, I got to work every day and the kids got to school everyday and that's all that mattered.

I am an educated woman, but I'm smart enough to know that men and women are different. I'm smart enough to know that my strength as a woman lies in my ability to be feminine and obedient to my husband. It's a strength because it's my CHOICE. I don't have to be submissive, but I'm giving my husband a gift if I do and I'm taking the burden off of myself.
 
#61 ·
In the late 70s a professor of mine at college wrote a book called "Equal Marriage" with her husband.

It was thin, way too philosophical, and doomed to not sell. Those two knew nothing of marriage.

It was no shock when a few years later they divorced.

I wanted her to write a follow-on book, "Equal Divorce", but I didn't have the guts to ask her to do it. ;)
 
#62 ·
Scannerguard,

Thank you for your thoughts. I will try to reply in more detail as I have time, but as usual you have a interesting and bold way to express your ideas.

The taliban and other institutional repression to women, I simply oppose it and would avoid any comparison to institional oppression with dominance in regard to sexual attraction.

Institutional oppression merely props up many weak men over other women. If a man does not earned the respect he is looking for then he has not met his responsibility. This is not sexual attraction in the dominant sense that I am speaking of.

This is truth also in western countries with christian religion and parts of its own institutionalized oppression.

For sexual attraction in it's purest sense, it is only between one man and one woman should these things be played out, the man strives to dominate and the woman strives to be dominated, as the man must fight and earn the attraction of his woman, and his woman must be free to test her man, and if he is successful standing up for himself and all these things speaking of being dominant, then there is much sexual attraction between them both, and if he is not overcoming and instead avoiding or retreating then there is emotional distance and rejection to such a man, leading to resentment in the relationship.

This is fundamental of the definition of freedom and should not be forced from outside, such as institutiional oppression of women.

This attitude I have is the same as well to say to avoid an educated woman, in so I would not go this far, and of course for myself I would not worry about this at all.

But many good men have some assumption, even without his woman saying anything at all, that all women are of the mindset of some caricature of some angry feminist man hater. This is not truth and is an unfair stereotype as could be made.

Good men, understand this, do not assume any one woman or group of woman speak for all women, let alone your woman.

Instead, let your woman speak for herself, or be silent for herself, or let her own actions and behavior speak for herself what is important or not important to her.

The good man may find even in the most liberated and educated woman, inside her is the radically sexual and feminine lady that adores being sexually desired and protected by her man.

All good men, for your woman let her actions and behaviors speak for herself, and when as the good man it is your responsibility to pay attention and LISTEN!!!
 
#63 ·
BBW:

I hope I didn't ever come across as forwarding the Taliban's political surpression of women. . .I was making an observation that their "overreaction" is perhaps an inevitable "overreaction" to the Westernization of marriage, a rejection of what is really not working either.

Here's the funny thing at this forum. We can all (you, me, et al) wax "wise" on this subject but religious, moderate clergy (Muslim, Jewish, Christian) have studied the subject of marraige for a long time and probably have reached the same conclusions we all have.

For all the discussion of sex and marriage and men and women and infidelty, it's rather ironic the "religion" forum isn't very frequented, isn't it?

Let me make it clear - perhaps it's timely that we are at a time in our country where we are assimilating "Moderate Muslims" and perhaps they have something to teach our society (and we them) about family structure, education, women, men, division of labor, etc.

I don't think our Ameican society, while it may be "just and equitable" right now with regards to men and women, is "sustainable." What we have isn't sustainable. . .even if women are able to provide for themselves, go to sperm banks. . .it begs the question:

What happens if they give birth to a boy?

Does she teach them that they are an abberrant genetic gender, to be antiquated in the near future?

I like that trio of words - "Just, equitable and sustainable." I use that trio a lot (picked it up on National Public Radio). Notice the choice of words - "equitable", not "equal".

The relationship of a man and woman should be "equitable", not equal. The relationship should be just and sustainable also.

I always say a sustainable partnership in business is at least 51/49, that way stalemates are avoided. 51% to the male, with the female offering 49% council.

Okay. . .I gotta really get off this forum for a few hours. . .would rather be here but should be elsewhere, LOL.
 
#64 ·
I just appreciate the clarity of BBW's and MEM's message.
They never stray far and wide from their core:

Odds are if you aren't getting laid regularly by your wife, there is a fundamental issue with attraction in your relationship.As a MAN, there are basic steps you can and should take to address that issue. A substantial reason you aren't enjoying intimacy is on you. It isn't 'all her fault'.
 
#67 · (Edited)
Scannerguard
An uneducated woman can be opinionated and strong willed too.

I think women from western societies have become very opinionated because of the way they grow up.

I don't think Chinese are much better because we have that women men have to be equal thing going on too.

And a lot of women are so wrapped up in their career, they are ignoring their duty as a wife and a mother.

Where can you find a woman with wisdom?

I don't think it is easy, I am a pessimist in this area.

It took me five good years to study life. I actually studied wisdom as a subject. A lot of it is self studying, part of it from attending religious meetings. How many women there want to do it? Some women want to do it, but it is always after their marriages become shattered.

Religion is good for us in some areas, but bad for us in other areas, too. A lot of people stay away from religion now because they are so disgusted by the hypocrisy.

But good moral standards are always good for us. Basic family rules are always good for us!!!!!
 
#69 ·
Oh, what the heck. . .while I am blowing my day. . .how about I offer another theoretical solution for our society and let you debate it for a few hours.

If we accept my theory as a given (and you all have been warm to it), but yet, to be "just", we know women deserve education, just as much as men,. . .perhaps the solution is this:

1. To be sustainable, women should focus on their reproduction/family/marriage while young.

2. Attend college later in life, after kids are raised and get an education for whatever motive - self-betterment, more money, etc.

Men, by contrast should get their education/trade squared away first for the family's to provide for young families.

This may take the man/woman competition out of the marketplace and at least restore some sanity to the institution of marriage and our American society.

Colleges wouldn't like it though. . .it's big business of which women are the greatest customers.

But it's a compromise between the Taliban with women and the total women's liberalization we face.

We need young women back in the home being the nutritionist and steward of the home.

Our kids need it.

Men, on the other hand, need to get out and provide.

It doesn't bode well for our society if we have men sitting around and not working.

Ever hear of pitchforks and torches?
 
#71 ·
Scanner - While the men are getting their educations at 18-24, what are women doing during the same years? Are we marrying older men? That's the only way I could see the scenerio working - women would have to get married younger to men at least 6 years their senior.

It would work out better for women who want children because by the time you get out of grad school your prime childbearing years are over. We lose half our eggs at 27.
 
#73 ·
Themrs,

Well, I haven't thought my theory for America's ills all the way. .. but. . .well. . .Yes.

Isn't this what grandma used to advise?

There's an old saying, "No man is worth a dam until he's 40."

My father is 9 years older than my mother. All of my friends growing up had this discrepancy it seemed and their marriages were a success.

My marriage? She's older by 3 weeks and here we are - divorcing. . .right when I am worth a dam.

So. .what are men supposed to do for sexual companionship during those years? Well, a Cougar optimally.

See. . .if America would just crown me Emperor, I could have this all worked out :)
 
#74 ·
A woman should be like spring water, clear, smooth and peaceful.
A woman should be a sexy wife, fulfills her husband's needs.
A woman should be a loving mother, looks after the kids.
Then if she has some time, she can get a job and make some dollars.

But a man has to cherish her and love her forever!


Is it possible???????????
 
#76 ·
Scanner - My grandmother married a man who was 6 years older than her and advised me otherwise. She said he was boring and in later years when she still had energy to go out and be active he was sitting on the couch watching CNN.

I married a man who is only 6 months older than me, but I've actually read the happiest marriages are those where the man is significantly older than the woman (at least 5 years). Who knows?
 
#77 ·
Personally, my thinking has evolved to a point where I think the hows and whys and what fors of a relationship have to be worked out between the two people in question.

The main problem in getting to that working things out is the presumptions each has, the lack of awareness of those presumptions, and an unwillingness to give ground.

Blanket statements based on gender roles of dominance and submission just don't seem all that useful to me.
 
#78 ·
I think BBW and MEM have perfectly described the type of man I would marry. I always knew that, but could never find the right words to describe it. So thanks :D

Regarding Scanner's theory about educated women. It is not just a theory. Actually, you shouldn't compare America or other developed countries and the Taliban. Taliban is an exception, just like those tribes in Africa that cut off the woman's genitals etc. They're extreme cases.

But if you compare the developed and developing countries, the divorce rate IS rising in the developing countries and only because more and more women are gaining access to higher education, and becoming more opinionated, independent and free. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but the men are failing to catch up lol

I have talked to many people from these developing countries too and they all complain about the rise in divorce and women being "bit**ier" than they used to, not taking crap from anybody including men. Not tolerating being controlled and abused by their men.

Education does change and has changed us women and how we treat men.
 
#79 ·
Well Greenpearl,

I am only laying out a blueprint for my peasants as "Emperor." I am only suggesting what you all should do, not me, of course ;)

When I am Emperor of the US of A, I expect for me to have many wives.

I want a brunette, brainy educated wife with her hair in a bun and secretary glasses.

I'll also take a Chinese woman who is submissive but a bit of an ornery streak in her.

I'll take a blonde "Kelly" who works as a check-out girl and an aerobic instructor, who keeps her in a pony tail.

A few others I am not thinking of.

And every night, each one could offer me council, in the bedroom, of course.

:)

But for now, we should delay women's educations as a general rule if they desire family.

Hey, you women all entered the "Men's Clubhouse" here. Don't knock and enter and expect to be horrified :) Oprah once noted that with all of her interview skills and ability to land great interviews, how much of a privledge it was to sit with Tom Hanks and other men in a circle once and eavesdrop on their thinking and conversation.
 
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