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Modern Men (Warning...long)

47K views 437 replies 38 participants last post by  Deejo 
#1 ·
I've been on marriage sites like this one for years trying to figure out what was wrong with my marriage. Over the last 13 years the relationship dynamic has changed between my wife and I.

I did everything that is considered the gold standard to try to put us back on the right course. I helped with the cleaning, I cooked, I did dishes, helped with the laundry, prepared surprise romantic dinners, teased her, left love notes, everything everyone suggests to try to "get her in the mood".

Nothing worked. My wife never really flat out rejected me much. Mostly she just ignored my advances, which, to be honest, was worse than straight rejections. I did have my share of rejection but more often than not she would just ignore me.

I blamed her for a lot of the problems. It was her fault I was our sex life sucked, it was her fault I wasn't happy.

Then I started stumbling across posts from different men on the forums I had visited. People like MEM, BigBadWolf, and others. The things they said seemed alien to me at the time.

When I was growing up, my mother was the authority figure in the home. My dad was a passive, hard working, honest man who never really made a decision of his own in his life. At times though, he held a lot of anger. He was passive-aggressive, but not often. Never abusive, and always terrified of making my mother angry. I would always hear him telling his friends and co-workers, "I can't do that, it would upset my wife." To me, this was normal. And it was, with all my male relatives. Their wives ran the house, the husbands brought home the money in most cases.

To get to the point, most of the men in my family, circle of friends, and co-workers were this exact same way...and so was I.

From the time I was a boy, I was taught to treat women like princesses. To put them on a pedestal. I was taught to treat my sister different than I would treat my brother. Taking queues from my male role models, I learned that the way to make a woman deliriously happy was to give in to her every whim. To do everything she asked, even if I it was the last thing I wanted to do, because it made them happy. I was that, and I saw it through example. This "education" translated to others as well. If anyone would ask me for help, I was there. I would do anything for anyone, and I did.

From reading posts from people like MEM and BBW, I couldn't quite grasp what they were saying. I mean, I did, but it didn't make any sense. So, I started reading more. Articles on male dominance, etc. Things started to make sense, but dominance as it was being explained sounded like I would just be another a-hole. There was a balance that was missing.

I eventually noticed quite a few threads around the net referring to a book called "No More Mr. Nice Guy". I bought it and read it and in that book I found the balance I was thought was missing.

My problem was the true lack of a MALE role model in growing up. There were few MEN that I could have looked to. My maternal Grandfather was the only on.

You, I learned the problem with most modern men (the last two or three generations) is that we have, for the most part, lost how to actually be men.

We have no boundaries to what type of behaviors are unacceptable to us. We put up with nagging, *****ing, public scolding, and a whole laundry list of other things. Why? Because we don't have the balls to draw the line in fear of "angering the wife". We have no regard for our OWN happiness, and therefore, most of us are miserable in relationships.

We do everything for our wives and nothing for ourselves. We say things like, "Honey, I'd really like to have a new XXXX. Can I buy one please?" Exactly like we did when we were little boys. I don't know what woman finds actions such as this attractive.

The other thing that women I've talked to find irritating and unattractive is the old, "I don't care, whatever you want." This ranges from wanting input on paint colors for the house to where to go for dinner. We have an opinion, why are we afraid to express it? This example, I believe, is a woman offering her man an opportunity to lead. Women WILL test us to see if we are willing to 1) lead 2) protect and 3) provide.

I will admit, through almost all of my marriage, I was a solid provider, but that was it. I gave up all my friends and hobbies, for my wife. This always gnawed at me, but I was "taught" this was the way things were.

After looking at all the married men around me and having my eyes opened, I saw it was the way things were, but not the way things "should" be. All the things I was expected to give up, and that my wife didn't approve of, she had, and I didn't.

Where I asked permission to buy something, she just bought it. Where I asked permission to go out, she just told me and went.

Slowly, over time, she lost all sexual interest in me, but she was happy with the life I provide her and she was ok with things the way they were. After finally figuring myself out, and finally understanding what she really wanted from me, I started changing. So far, it has been tough for us both. She resists because I'm upsetting her apple cart. I'm taking her out of her comfort zone, but I finally realized that was NOT the life I wanted to lead. I WILL not lead that life, even if it means parting ways.

It was an eye opening day when I realized all the men I was surrounded by, myself included, had no balls. We were/are AFRAID of our wives and would not stand up for ourselves for anything. We are getting exactly the life we deserve.

Oddly enough, I notice it everywhere now and it is a constant reminder to keep working on myself. If you want to know what I'm talking about, watch any of the husband / wife type sitcoms on TV.

I learned that my wife can NOT make me happy, only I can. My wife is there kind of like a polish, to make that happiness just that more beautiful to experience. We are far from there, and may not get there, but I'm now willing to pursue my happiness, with or without her.

Anyway, I see a lot of the same traits from most of the men that post here who have the same problems I'm trying to correct now. I'm having some success, but its going to be a long road.

We, as men, have to relearn how to be men.
 
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#3 ·
Boogsie, your post needs to be read by every good man on this board.

I am interested to see what can be helpful to present the balance I am seeing you type, as this comes up now and then.

I know that MEM11363 is more articulate and detailed on these things perhaps, as for my posts, there are reasons I am narrow in focus more on attitude than details. Plus i type as quickly as I can to keep up with my thinking and as with everyone time is limited!

Some of these things are deliberate, as I cannot tell any other man too specifics as how to behave, for what good is telling someone to be a good leader that they need to be told what to do, that is contradictory!

Only to give the hints and encouragement to become their own leader, that is the seed that needs to be sown, much like as every body of water must find it's own level, to force some things is just futile and would be dishonest.

So if you and any other good man are reading these things, and maybe not understanding but taking it to action to read and study and conclude for yourself what this means for you if at all beneficial, then by all definitions I would not hope for anything greater!

As for the role models, you are speaking truth.

The television in our home is turned off more than it is on. I am very quick to express my opinion in front of my woman as well as my sons and daughter when a man is shown weak or as a bumbling idiot (as quickly also I do not approve of women shown degraded or abused for entertainment).

Growing up, I was fortunate to see very strong men in my family, my father and my brothers and even distant relatives, although to be fair I do not know if the marriages were even then in balance even with strong men, as even so there was divorce and I am the only sibling who is still married to my first wife.

So maybe for balance, understand I am sitting here on the couch, my wife is out running errands with the youngest children, and she has recently texted me how much she is desiring us to be together again, and I have just texted her back something naughty and very innappropriate and that will make her blush, and she will love it.

So understand in this all played out, is not always some epic struggle that must be forced and orchestrated, nor is the dominant man in the relationship playing a game or putting on a front.

Quite the opposite.

For once the dominant man is in motion in the relationship, and this starts with attitude and is built with the tools of behavior and action, it is as a river flowing downhill.

Natural and beautiful, but powerful, as it flows effortlessly not only from it's own strength, but with the strength of the natural forces that pull and guide it and direct it as well.

I wish you well.
 
#11 ·
The rules

If you are a man and you want to have a passionate relationship with your wife:
1. ALL dominance starts in-house. That means you learn to control YOUR emotions - especially the two biggest enemies fear and uncontrolled anger.
2. True control of emotions enables great self control of your behavior. Not just the words that issue from your mouth, but your body language.
3. The baseline against which you measure behavior is the golden rule. Do NOT allow people to treat you worse than you would treat them.
4. Acknowledge that without respect you have nothing. ALL respect emanates from in-house. If you don't respect yourself, well you can finish that sentence.
5. Earn respect by performing, demand respect by inflicting swift and sure consequences when treated in an unacceptable manner.
6. Be empathetic and supportive and loving when your W is hurting.
7. Be stern and firm when she is taking her bad day/bad mood out on you.
8. Be fun to be around. Playful, upbeat, fun and funny.
9. Be around less and make it clear why when you are not being treated fairly.
10. You are allowed to have needs. Express them. You are not allowed to be needy. There is a giant difference between the two.
11. Learn your W. A husband who says "no one can understand women, does not understand his wife. This lack of knowledge is often fatal to the marriage" Pay attention - she is likely fairly consistent.
12. Accept that your W will love you MORE when you assert yourself in a rational, strong, firm and consistent manner.
13. Learn to talk a LOT LESS and communicate much more and much better with body language.
 
#4 ·
Oh yes a lot of men these days need to get their balls back. Seems like their mothers crushed them while they were still little boys.
Women don't need a sissy guy who asks her for permission to go out (no offense to anyone I guess). We want men who put down rules, not in disrespectful ways that is and have lots of self respect, but not to the extent that their ego controls them to the very core. We don't want someone who cheats, abuses and disregards us. But we also don't need a maid, and a girlfriend...at least I personally don't. I never asked my husband to do laundry, iron, do dishes or any type of house work. He only helped me with heavy lifting and reaching places that were too high for me. Oh and I HATE it when men gossip in front of women. Total turn off lol

The way men were like in the older days was good, but they thought they had control and could do anything, including cheat and abuse. Today, you need to find the perfect balance by showing your wife your love in manly way and not a sissy way. I'm not gonna love you more because you folded my laundry or scrubbed the floor. You might as well wear my bra if you're gonna be acting like another woman just like me.
 
#218 ·
I like your post Cherrpie. I really do. You've put so much emotion and thought into your world and it's really very very nice. But I gotta say "perfect balance", perfection exists in nature but not in us humans. If we get close to it we're truly blessed.

Bob
 
#5 ·
Thank you so much for this post Boogsie! I'm a woman in a new marriage, and I posted a thread very closely related to this. The insight you have on your marriage is very helpful. I constantly try to get attention from my H, and he ignores the advances, and like you, I've given everything up for him. I'm not going to try to "learn how to be a man", but I am going to try to build myself up and get my own life so that he can add to that happiness. Thank you again for this post, I have hope now, not just worry. :)
 
#6 ·
I am sick of women's complaining. I know if any women read this post, will be offended by me. Do I care? Tell you honestly, I am sick of their attitude towards their men.
What you said in your post is very true. Men put up a lot with their wives. They are taught to let ladies go first.
Generally speaking, women are more jealous, vain. They can't let things go. If you let a woman run your life, wrong wrong wrong! They'll just make your household full of problems.
I have noticed, it is usually mother-in-law doesn't get along with daughter-in-law, not father-in-law with son-in-law. It is usually sisters-in-law don't get along, not brothers-in-law. It is usually women don't get along, and they make their husbands take their side. I am a woman, I feel sad being a woman, not proud of us women.

My husband learned from his father by not doing what his father did. He never let me wear the pants. I actually respect him even more. He respects me, but he makes the decision. He listens to my advice, but he makes the decision. If I act silly, he'll point out. He won't let me continue my stupidity. Man, it hurts when he points out my stupidity. But I don't dare to step on his head. He is four years younger than me, but in many ways he is mature and manly. He made mistakes also, he recognized and tried to change.
For a relationship, never let other people boss you around, but respect their opinion.
You make you own luck. You make your own happiness. That's what my husband says all the time.
 
#7 ·
I don't think mother-daughter in law problems have much to do with men and their wifes controlling them. I mean, mothers in law, most of them are well, jerks, who want to put you down because you took their little ball-less baby away from them lol And the husband SHOULD take his wife's side if he wants to maintain a family. It doesn't have so much to do with the wife trying to control her husband, as she is trying to make the b**ch of her mother in law piss of and let her live in peace and raise her kids and be the wife she wants and needs to be. Story of my life haha
 
#15 ·
Cherrypie

I just read a post from a Chinese forum. It is about a mother-in-law from China. Some Taiwanese mothers-in-law are terrible to their daughters-in-law. In china, it is somewhat in between, depends. This one is ridiculous, the woman really has a reason to feel sad.

In China, because of one-child policy, children are very spoiled , especially boys. Chinese favor boys over girls because of a lot of issues.

This woman's husband still sleeps with his mother when his mother is around. He doesn't want to sleep with his wife, he sleeps with his mother, with only underwear. The wife felt very uncomfortable, so she tried to talk to him. He got himself drunk and he was crying and crying: I want my mom, I want my mom, I want my mom..............The woman really didn't know what to do. She just gave birth to a child, she doesn't know where she should go. I would rather believe this is a joke, but I know I have to believe this is true. It is not the first time I have seen stuff like this.

I miss my country. China has a great history. China is also developing very fast. In many ways, China is just as good as western countries now. But the stupidity of some people really makes me shake my head and I don't feel proud of it!!!
 
#8 ·
The way men were like in the older days was good, but they thought they had control and could do anything, including cheat and abuse. Today, you need to find the perfect balance by showing your wife your love in manly way and not a sissy way. I'm not gonna love you more because you folded my laundry or scrubbed the floor. You might as well wear my bra if you're gonna be acting like another woman just like me.
This is the crux of the problem. There was a time when men had all their balls but ignored the needs of the women by their side and took advantage of their woman's work and love which eventually lead to revolt and the loss of their balls because women realized that men had it a hell of a lot better than women did. Unfortunately, this confused gender roles and created women who feel they need to behave like men to be respected like a man.

In my relationship it's about equality but we recognize that we want very different things. Allow me my loves and I will make you feel like a man like never before. Be faithful, caring and wise and I will worship you in the bedroom and in other ways too. You won't ask for a motorcycle because if you mention you want one I will want to go out and buy the motorcycle of your dreams for you.

If you belittle me, take advantage of or try to control me, ignore my femininity or disregard me then I will not make you feel like a man because you're not. I will nag you and I will moan in indifference or disgust when you try to touch me. It's because you will disgust me and you're not my partner in any way besides by law.
 
#10 ·
Women are as good as men but in different ways. The two need to figure this out together and nurture their differences and similarities.

I had a conversation earlier with my husband over dinner about this thread and the first thing he said was that although men and women are fundamentally different, our individual personalities also play a role and to ignore this would also be an injustice. I think each couple is different but the pattern we set in society is crucial to the well being of all of us.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Hey Boogsie, read yer post. I like it.
I too, was someone who treated my wife like a queen, did everything, and thought I would reap the rewards.
Then found the rewards lacking. I did get resentful of her, accused her of not wanting to please me, feeling "safe" so that she wouldn't have to try, being the gunman on the grassy knoll, etc...
Then one day, I was watching a talk show, and the man had the same problem we both had-trying to get her in the mood and getting nothing in return. The wife said she wanted to divorce.
Of course, I sympathized with him and wanted to see her get what for, I thought he was a good man. Then the rest of the story came out-he had cheated on her before, was verbally and emotionally abusive, even physically at times, and the kids hated him because he was always yelling at everyone. Needless to say, I was rooting for her by the end.
But she said something that changed my attitude. She said that he did everything-cooked, cleaned, did dishes. He did it all. She never had a chance to do anything, because he always beat her to the punch. And the host asked if he hadn't done those "nice guy" things, would it have been different. She said it certainly would have, she would have felt more useful. She even said that it felt like she was "castrated" by him.
I think "cast iron skillet up the side of the head" would be the best analogy.
So, I talked it over with the wife, and she felt that, yes, I was "stealing her job", and I cooled the jets. I didn't cold shoulder her or start acting like a jerk "Yo, b****, get me a drink!", but I did start doing less.
Why didn't I do this sooner?!? Almost overnight, it seemed we had an easier time taliking, we got closer, started enjoying each other's company, and yes, the sex is better-even turns out that she's willing to do it more than I wanted!
Things are not perfect (who we kidding, never will be), but I feel that things have definitely gotten better since I started to "man up."
 
#14 ·
I have to say, as a woman, there are some things that BBW has said that I don't agree with, that if my boyfriend did them (or any other man I were ever in a relationship with), it would be the end of our relationship.

At the same time, though, there are a lot of good points to this. I don't want to be with a weak man who's always going to do what I want, never want to risk my anger or frustration, and set aside his own happiness and well-being as a result. No, I don't want to be completely left out or ignored in decision making, I don't want him pursuing his happiness in the arms of another woman, or anything like that. But I want him to be strong enough, man enough, to make a decision and stick by it even if I disagree. That becomes one of those "I disagree with your decision but I will still support you" moments. No, I don't like arguing or fighting with him, but I'd rather argue or fight every now and then than to find out he was miserable for years and years because he did what I wanted or what he thought I would want to avoid those arguments or fights.

I think men need to definitely find that balance. I sometimes look at how my grandfather treats my grandmother, or even my dad treats my mom, and I think that I couldn't handle it. But then, my boyfriend will do that every now and then and I do handle it. But if he did it constantly, I'd have to kill him. :) It's all about balance.
 
#16 ·
Honestly, what is wrong with some of you? Treat each other like adults--no ADULT wants to be dominated. Grow up and take responsbility for your own decisions.

If you must dominate to feel like a man, then you are acting like a boy. A man can feel manly without having to dominate another. If you disrespect a man because he does his fair share at home, then you are acting like a silly little girl who thinks people are trapped in roles.

I don't like a man or woman who cries out of anger, fear, or frustration. Children cry for those reasons.

Men like sexually aggressive women just as much as women like sexually agressive men--any man who does not has some issues b/c he needs to feel "in control" to feel sexual. Seriously, how many PEOPLE actually enjoy passive sexual partners? Yuck.

I would take everything that MEM says about MEN and say women should do the same. If your man takes out his bad mood on you, stand up for yourself. Geez, it's not rocket science--it's what strong, mentally healthy adults DO. Neither men nor women should let another person "dominate" them and frankly, if you do, you are acting CHILDISHLY and really need examine the very faulty nature of your assumptions about humans, sexuality, history, and a number of other things.

I completely support the men who are tired of being pushed around by their wives and want to stand up for themselves. I have NO tolerance for the argument, however, that standing UP for one's self somehow means you must DOMINATE the other. I have NO tolerance for any argument that suggests that somehow women are "naturally" more submissive and "need" to be dominated. If you buy into that, you are woefully ignorant of all that research and history show, and you are choosing to ignore the EVIDENCE that women, dominated by men, were and are miserable. Women in equal partnerships where their man STANDS UP for himself are happy.

I think most people--men and women--continue to fear the responsibility of acting like an ADULT b/c it might mean, going it alone. When you've accepted that "alone" is not the worst thing in life and you start standing up for yourself and accepting responsibility for your choices, then you are an adult and you will find real happiness. Everything else is just an illusion and will fade.
 
#17 ·
The point is not dominating each other but dominating the situation. And women tend to like confident men who can take care of things. We don't want to be dominated and told what to do and when to inhale and exhale. You got it all wrong. We do want our men to be helpful but not to the point where they become doormats. They need to learn when to stop and say no instead of kissing our butts to please us.


And believe it or not roles are a good thing and even important. Everybody has their own roles be it at home, school, work, church and just wherever. It's all about roles and everyone doing their part. It would be a mess if the roles got mixed and people did each others jobs. That is how problems are caused. It's not immature at all.
 
#21 ·
Here's how a guy knows he's in trouble...

He feels it necessary to apologize for his emotional overreactions AND feels it necessary to apologize for doing things that "make her" overreact.

If this sounds like you, keep reading.

Couples need to be "equally yoked". No matter how much males want to "fix things", you simply cannot own the emotional response of another person.

It will drive you insane.

JD



 
#23 ·
Re: The rules

Maybe I am mixed up but I agree with what Mem says and I also LOVE & agree with what Sister359 is saying as well for added balance !!

"Nice Guys" often go too far to please & it backfires mercilessly, many of us wives end up only taking them for granted. My husband has always been a Pleaser, But he never whines or complains, he rarely showed anger to me in those days, he never came across as "Needy".

I like line # 10. " You are allowed to have needs. Express them. You are not allowed to be needy. There is a giant difference between the two".

My husband failed to express his needs better. That was his biggest issue as a Nice Guy.

I seriously hope though, that not all Nice Guys will suddenly turn into the sheer opposite to get the love & attention from their wives. Maybe tweek & modify some things they have been doing wrong, but in the end, I still think Nice Guys ROCK !
 
#25 ·
Mem, I think you understand the dynamics of your relationship and are sharing your experience, open to suggestions, flexible and self assured. I'm sure your marriage benefits from this and you are helping others learn these same tools to apply to their marriage.

Big Bad Wolf doesn't come off as this type of character to me. He is more stringent and dominating specifically of his wife. In one post of his I remember reading that he thought all women enjoy being spanked. This sent yuck down my spine. Not because I care if his wife likes to be spanked every day of her life but because it's a very demeaning thing to assume all women like.

I like what Sister said. As it was saying that both need to speak up and care about the relationship they're in and get to know each other. It's not necessarily gender divided and it's a great injustice we do to ourselves to limit our visions of another based upon gender alone.
 
#26 ·
Very big difference between dominating and being proactive. For me dominance has no part in my life. I do not want to dominate another human being. Never have and never will. Why? If I dominate I suppress. I will never suppress another person. I know I can dominate and I know domination is not me.

Initiate? Be proactive? I will always do that. I love that.

But oh boy I’ve had quite a few times in my life when I’d love the love of my life to initiate and lead so I can follow and support. It never happened.

Bob
 
#27 ·
Here’s a little story. I play squash, I love playing squash it’s like physical aerial chess to me. I had a good buddy I enjoyed playing squash with. The time he could play with me was controlled by his wife. Twice even though my buddy and me had agreed the next time to play his wife changed the time.

Absolutely no way would I take a third change in time by his wife. I felt like his wife was controlling not only him but me as well by default. Neither my buddy or myself have played squash since. Women who control for the sake of control are seriously dysfunctional. They are missing a key ingredient of being a balanced human being.

Bob
 
#28 ·
I think the word dominating may not be the right word, but aggressive and self assurance. I am a very easy going guy and I can be completely happy doing a myriad of different things. There are things though I have made a line in the sand and I have 0 tolerance for any deviation from that line. I hold myself and my loved ones to the same observance of those lines. As long as those lines are not crossed I am gentle, loving and I don't get angry easily. If someone crosses those lines though I have no problem becoming stern and as hard as nails. And no, I have never laid a finger, nor demeaned any of my loved ones or friends when angry.

I tend to be a very direct person and when my wife and I were dating, I told her the 4 things that I had to have in our relationship, there would be no discussion nor movement on my part for those 4 conditions. I also asked her at that time if there was anything she required for herself to be happy.

1. I will not tolerate disrespect to or against others. I will never belittle my wife or children verbally. I demand the same respect from them for me.

2. If you want/need something you will ask, you will not hint or poke around the edges. A perfect example was when I asked my wife where she wanted to go out to eat, she said she didn't care. I drove us to a seafood restaurant (she hates seafood with a passion) I refused to go anywhere else. And yes, if I am ever asked I will say what places sound good to me, etc.

3. If I express a deep want to do something, I expect that you will do your best to accommodate my needs. If you tell me something is important to you(like going shopping, etc) I will in turn do the same for you even if it's something I don't enjoy. It is a two way street though, I will not give you yours if my wishes are rejected.

4. A marriage is about two becoming one, a deeper relationship then just a friendship, as it involves intimacy. As a man I need and desire to be intimate with my wife. If I want just a friend, I can get a friend at any time. As my spouse, I desire you to be my friend and to be intimate with. I will do whatever it is you need I can to make sure I fulfill your emotional and other needs as a woman. I ask the same from you that you realize my physical needs as a man.

I know reading it I may come across as an aa$$hole to some. I consider it though being completely truthful with what makes me happy in life. I feel that being open about it was being kinder to her because she knew exactly what I needed from her as a wife.
 
#29 ·
Domination in a social or political sense, I am in agreement with mostly what is being expressed, of course I am not advocating slavery or some form of it even on an emotional or psychological level, that is ridiculous.

Do not think for a minute I am surpressing or controling the personality or behavior of my wife nor would that be very likely for any man to do. ANyone who knows or would see my wife would assume in every sense she is sharp and intelligent and opinionated and not taking crap from anyone, very dominant herself and that is a fact.

But in the sexual sense, for the sexual structure to be at peak and prime, in my experience absolutely, there is one leader and one dominant partner, and sexually speaking that is the responsibility of the man, and in any relationship where sex is important then the man will strive to dominate, and the woman will strive to be dominated, even to the point where the woman, yes, will push her man to be this in some way or form.

If this is offensive to anyone then that is up to them to reconcile whether there experiences match up to their offense.

Be sure that at any time if my wife expressed she would rather be treated gender neutral and stop being turned on sexually day by day for so many years, of course I would respect such a decision but of course there would be consequences to the relationship for sure. This should not even need to be typed out but regardless here it is for anyone who really needs to see it.

In all my experiences with women, I have never seen any woman as turned on as she is when she is pursued in the dominant fashion, period. No amount of negotiation or talk or giving flowers or doing housework or any of these other 50/50 ideas have even come close. And I am saying not even in the same ballpark or even worth speaking of.

So much to say consistently seeing a woman on the verge of an orgasm often without much more than being touched, or begging her man to take her or begging her man to rip off her clothes or begging her man to allow her to do this or that to him, can you say this happens from a man doing housework? I dare anyone to compare.

It is clear there are many opinions shared that, while everyone has the right to their opinion, not every opinion is even worthwhile to be considered or replied to.

Any opinion to attempt to shame a man to "grow up" for expressing his sexual appetites or experiences will always fall under this category.

Non the less, this thread is borderline on some silly gender war, that is not beneficial to anyone and I would encourage everyone to share honestly and openly their own opinions backed with their experience, and to avoid needless accusations, as they will help no one.
 
#171 ·
I see you only as you define and design yourself in title and through word here on these forums: The Big Bad Wolf. For every big bad wolf there must be a better woodsman or woodswoman who counters and overcomes the self interests of the wolf. It has nothing to do with gender and all to do with humanity.

Although it's refreshing to know that you believe your woman is honest with you, as judgmental as I am and as sure that you are equally so, I will judge that your wife gives up more than you will ever know in order to keep you happy for whatever reason she deems fit in the bedroom.

Honesty to me is paramount and this goes beyond the sake of the relationship. Fairy tales are written by those who need to believe them and history written by those who get the chance to broadcast it with honesty being the only thing real and fitting of a soul connection.
 
#30 ·
Okay, I've been a nice guy all my life. I'm still nice, but it has certainly made me a doormat more often than I'd like. Especially in my marriage. We guys do need to man up in many ways, but on the other hand I also feel that any woman (or man) who's response to someone being nice to them is to take advantage of their niceness is just sick, plain and simple.

For me, it's all about "what goes around comes around". That means if you're nice to me I will want to be nice to you. And if I'm being nice to you, I expect you will want to be nice back. I do not expect you to say to yourself "Great! Now I can get him to do even more chores and be even more submissive until he's nothing more than a child!".

This business about "we women will take advantage" speaks volumes about the character of those women. Don't you see that taking advantage worsens the situation? Can't you turn around and be a nice, decent human being right back at him instead of asserting control? I don't see why you'd want to run his life just because he won't fight back. It should be give and take from both sides.

I'm reminded of a response I read somewhere when a woman was asked what she wants in a man, and she said "I want a man who will tell me 'no', but I also want a man I can control." You want a man who will stick up for himself up to a point, but beyond that you want ultimate authority. What's so bad about losing control once in a while?

Also, how many of you women who have nice guy husbands have actually sat down and told him, point blank, that he's too submissive? If you haven't, why haven't you? And if you have, what was his reaction?

My extremely assertive wife has never, ever told me that she would love me more, be more sexual, and be a generally happier person if only I'd disregard her feelings more often. Why would anyone want that?
 
#34 ·
Nine,
You are in a 15 year sexual drought. BBW and I live in the oasis of intimate saturation. Perhaps the biggest single difference between us is how we see women. I believe that for every man who loves to play/watch football, boxing, wrestling or any other high conflict sport, there is a woman who likes conflict just as much. She may like physical conflict, and/or she may like emotional conflict. But either way those things excite and fascinate her.

My W LOVES competition and it's kissing cousin, conflict. Could be a board game, or tennis game or a healthy argument or wrestling match. Could be pure verbal banter. And what really gets her turned on is excellence. When she gets in the zone or I do - or even better when we both do. It actually isn't about who wins. It is about who got closest to their full potential.

Why are you afraid to demand your W treat you and your needs the same way you treat hers? BTW I can just about guarantee you are NOT meeting her need for conflict. And sorry to say - it is not her job to tell you to "man up". You either do or you don't. If I live to be a 100 I will never ask someone permission before I demand that they treat me fairly.

You will never hear me say: "would it be ok if I asked you not to take advantage of my generosity"

You might hear me ask: "would you be ok if I did that to you?" or "WHY would you think I would be ok with that?"

A lot of times I find people are keenly aware they are misbehaving. In those cases, some intense body language usually does more in seconds than a long drawn out and frankly tiresome conversation.
 
#31 ·
I am getting confused. How come we are talking about domination now? Nobody wants to be dominated. People like to be respected. A Man can be the head of the family, but it doesn't mean he should dominate his woman. He should be sweet and respectful towards his wife. He can be firm with his decision. He can only get his wife's respect only if he respects her. A lot of marriages fail because the husband and wife don't respect each other. They take their partner's sacrifice for granted. Who likes to be taken for granted? I don't owe you!!!

For spanking, as long as it is joking and funny, it is playful. It is fun to be playful in a marriage. But different people will interpret this in a different way. If she likes it, then spank her. If she doesn't like it, of course don't do it. Who likes to be bitten by a snarly dog??? You won't spank her since you know you will get backfired. I don't mind being spanked by my husband. I am being spanked everyday. I am a bad girl, I deserve it!!! :) :) :)

For people in general, if you want people to be nice to you, you have to be nice to them first. That is common sense. Who will smile to you if you give him a dirty look??? If you smile to them, they will probably smile back to you. You say hello to them, they'll say hello back to you. Although some people don't like other people's attention, you say hello to him, he gives you a reluctant response, next time I meet him, I just ignore him. Who likes to be treated indifferently??????

For a man and a woman, respect get paid by respect, love get paid by love, kindness get paid by kindness, if you don't get paid the same way, you should think about something else!!!!
 
#32 ·
I'm the other side of the coin. I was the daughter of parents like yours (passive father and a dominant mother). I have had two 9yr relationships in my life where I have been the breadwinner , cook, accountant and cleaner and my partner is free of all burden to pursue their dreams. Unfortunately my present relationship is on the rocks.He says I'm too controlling and dont communicate. I'm sick and tired of doing everything and just want to be looked after but when I bring up the need for him to share the load he gets defensive and angry and says I am telling him what to do again.
 
#33 ·
I've been reading through these posts, and all I can think of is "if only that were possible". Before I was married, this was absolutely my perspective:

Women are naturally wary of being vulnerable, which comes (very simplistically) from the fact that they don't really get a choice about sticking around if they get pregnant, whereas men have to actively make the choice to be responsible in caring for and raising children that a born into a relationship. A man's greatest fulfillment is therefore found in being responsible - for himself, for his wife and for his family. A woman will not want to be faced with the concept of a choice about sticking around, she wants security that comes from knowing without doubt that the father of her children will choose to stay. That translates to him making important decisions on behalf of the family also - this of course not being 'his' decision in an individual sense, but rather the family's decision made by him. In short, woman wants to know that her man will always choose what's best for the family.

So my responsibility as a single man was to develop my own convictions - strong, passionate, reasoned, and objective. This is what I tried to do as best as I could, and I honestly feel that to a certain measure I achieved this.

Now, after being married for a few years, I look at what I've just written and think blah, blah, blah, whaaaaatever.

If I have an opinion, it will be turned against me. It appears that to my wife, the fact that I have a point of view on the world is first and foremost a threat to her. She has an inbuilt need to crush any vestige of who I am and what I stand for before she will even contemplate opening her mouth to express her own desires. She will state what she thinks only when it can be used as a means to 'stand against me'.

To me, 'taking the lead' means leading the relationship in a manner where the 'power struggle' is neutralilsed. We are not in competition, but rather we stand together, commited to taking on the world together. To activate this principle, I will try to take the lead by proactively creating diologue, where both of our viewpoints are expressed, then a decision can be made. However, her determination to interpret everything I say or do as being a tactic in the power struggle has left me empty and passive, a hollow shell.

Now that we have a young daughter, with a second child on the way, I have noticed that she has gained the realisation that she needs me around. It takes a massive effort from both of us to keep things going, so I'm gradually gaining my feet again.

The hardest thing for me has been the sheer helplessness I've felt as I've had no option but to do things in a way that I know to be destructive. The thing with a committed relationship is the time - things develop over periods of months and years that cannot be expressed in tidy paragraphs. I know that my wife is not totally unique among women in the way she operates, because I see the same issues expressed by so many other men. I wish there was some magic wand that we (being men who honestly want to do the best by our wives and families) could wave to 'make' women realise that we aren't out to get them, we're not with them just to prove how much better we are than them, we are not and never will be perfect, and above all WE LOVE THEM. Hear that wives: WE LOVE YOU. GET THAT INTO YOUR THICK SKULLS. Please stop trying to manipulate us, twist our words to suit whatever gives you the upper hand, etc...

I thought about deleting that last bit, because it was expressed only in frustration, but I'll leave it, because it does actually express a very real part of my own life, and I'm sure many other mens's lives.
 
#38 ·
Exactly.

A man begging for a toy, when there is unpaid debts, this is looking from his woman's view as he is being a child.

Instead, for a man to take ownership of the financial situation, to either put off the toy for awhile or to take to action the means to come up with the extra money to both, cover the debts, buy the toy, and even have some extra for something nice for his woman or to put back for a rainy day, this is him acting in dominance.

The first scenario leads to insecurity and resentment.

The second scenario leads to security, respect, and sexual attraction.

Thank you for sharing this.
 
#36 ·
I can't speak for other women, I can only speak my point of view. I am a well respected teacher at school. I respect my husband for saying no to me and sticking to his rule. I find it challenging. I don't think I'll respect him much if he is a wimp and does everything I like. I think BBW posted something about a woman desires a man who is what what what and a woman won't desire a man who is what what what. A man can stick to his rules, but he also has to be loving and respectful towards his wife. I won't like a man who is dominant or bossy. How can you find the balance, depends on yourself. Different women take different level. For strong willed women, maybe they need strong willed men to match, but the sad part is, you find them to be with wimps!!!!!!
 
#37 · (Edited)
I would not be "bossy" at all to my wife in practically any sense of the word, except showing calm and confident dominance in one or two areas of our relationship, and those are the ones that count. THat is the key and what is important, these ones that count are absolutely expected by my wife for me to be in charge, that is for my own standing up for myself, and sexually between us.

My wife is not going to say in words, it is a turn on to do this or that, but it is clear in her behavior over the years beyond dispute, she is not respecting any man that cannot be his own leader, and she has no sexual attraction for such a man, and she WILL challenge me often on these things.

What I have learned, to attempt to avoid or appease during these challenges, brings emotional distance and resentment between us.

WHen I meet these challenges head on, it leads to her skyrocketing respect for me, and massive sexual attraction between us. Understand this is not a game or someting just for pretend, it is the absolute core of what sexual attraction is, as a woman she is radically sexually excited to witness and experience male dominance.

SO I have learned not only to stand for myself and express absolutely my sexual appetites and to even look forward to opportunities of conflict or confrontation, I have learned even better to enjoy such conflicts or confrontations. FOr the good man, to understand this in relation to his woman, is critical!

ANd like MEM11363 is saying so well, it would be a massive sexual dissappointment for my wife to see her man needing to ask permission for so many tings, as instead of her married to a man she is not wanting to be married to a little boy. But understand for me to live and behave and relatate in my relationship like this I better be damn sure to be aware of what is going on for my decisions to be proper and beneficial for my family.

If I am spending money I need to show good judging, even for someting just for myself or my own hobby.

If I am pursuing my sexual appetites, I better know what my wife is also needing and emotoinally connected as well.

These things are hardly worth having to mention, but lest there is no confusion, the amount of responsibility cannot be overllooked, so it is with the dominant man, he is responsibal for these areas that he takes ownership of, especially in sexual and emotional connecting with his woman.

This is the difference between so so sexual relationship, and the incredible passionate and primal sexual relationship that is possible between the good man and woman.
 
#39 ·
:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I find it very challenging when my husband disagrees with me. We often debate, and we can go on for a long time. I don't like a man who says yes yes yes all the time. A woman can never be right all the time, same thing with a man. I think a man will also love his woman more if she is not too meek. A lot of Chinese women are too meek, a lot of western women are too opinionated. My husband didn't want to marry a western woman because he thinks they are too strong willed. I would like to know if it is true.
 
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