My original thread sparked the type of debate / conversation I was looking for and I am learning a lot from it. It got me thinking about something that runs parallel to that thread, but really deserves its own.
As I said in the first thread, I was brought up and taught to treat women like princesses. Open doors, throw your coat in a puddle, never hit, treat her like a princess, listen to her attentively, etc. Make sure their needs are met so they have no reason to stray and so on. Just as I was taught. Now, from talking to my grandfather, older gents at work, and so on, I've learned that my upbringing was much the same as theirs, without some of the balance brought from things like assertiveness, etc. We were taught the same thing.
Over the last few weeks I've also been talking to women of various ages (who I was certain wouldn't sue me for sexual harrasment!) about how they were taught to treat men as they were growing up.
My conversations revealed some very interesting things. Most of the women I talked to said they were never really taught anything like us guys are taught growing up. They are taught to be independent, they don't really need men, even though if you find the right one they can make life easier. Some were even taught that men are only after one thing and you can use that to your advantage. Honestly, hearing that kind of blew my mind. Mostly, though, I was hearing a description of what I would call "Modern Women".
Where this gets interesting is the few women at work I talked to who are near retirement age. Some of those women were brought up and their mothers taught them the "50s" female stereotype. Things like, keep a neat house, make yourself up for you husband, greet him when he comes home from work and take care of his physical needs.
What I got out of this was this: It seems to me we went from one extreme to another. We went from a super-submissive woman who gave everything to family and nothing to herself, to a type of woman who doesn't give much to her husband, and everything to herself.
It seems to me that somewhere along the way we are going to have to find a happy medium between the two.
Most relationships I see around me seem to work this way. Husbands are "nice-guys" who are generally at the beck and call of their wives, and they all seem to complain (read want / need) the same things I do. Intimacy, companionship, etc.
Looking back over both of my marriages, I do see them going in the same direction. I do everything my wife wants. Wait on her, help her around the house (she's a SAHM and all our children are adults now), etc. In return I get almost nothing that I require out of the relationship.
When we have discussed this in the past I get the "I do things all the time to show you I love you. I do things around the house, cook you dinner..." etc.
I did a little experiment. I stopped meeting ALL of her needs for about two months. No helping around the house, etc. I just went to work, and came home and did what I wanted. She was furious. So I told her, "I do things all the time that show you I love. I go to work. I bring home a paycheck..." etc. It didn't click. Then I tried to explain to her that I do things for her BECAUSE I love her and I WANT to do things for her. Not to the nice guy level of approval seeking type behavior I used to, but because she's my wife and I genuinely WANT to do some things to help her.
She still doesn't get it. The friends I have who are very happily married have that dynamic. The husband and wife do things for each other, not because they want to, but out of love for the other spouse. A dynamic that hasn't existed in either of my marriages. Both of my marriages have consisted of me going out of my way to meet my wifes needs, and succeeding (both have told me this), but no amount of talking, discussion, etc, brought them around to want to attempt to meet mine.
In short, I've wondered if this disconnect is related to the dramatic shift from the 50's style wife to the modern liberated woman.
I'm thinking this may be the reason why there are so few "balanced" men today. Most of the men I know are either nice-guys or a-holes. I know very few balanced men. As boys we are taught how to meet a womans needs, though not really how to be men. Conversely, most women seem to not be taught how to meet a mans needs (other than being told all men want is sex and they are sex hounds and you should only have sex with your husband if you want to, well, because he's a sex fiend).
I find it odd that in two marriages, when I stopped meeting my spouses needs the objections were loud and often, but when I voice the same concerns they are disregarded with a quick little, "I'll try.". You can't really work on a problem until you find the why of it. I'm still looking for the why.
I'll give you an example. Tomorrow is my 40th birthday. Every year my wife asks me what I want for my birthday. My answer is always the same. I tell her "I want hot monkey lovin'". It is that simple, I don't want a gift, or a party. Just intimacy with enthusiasm. It has been well over 5 years since I've been intimate with my wife on my birthday, or Christmas or any time she asks me what I want for a gift and I tell her intimacy. Even sitting her down and having serious discussions on the whys of my wants, I still go unheard.
My sex life boils down to me still trying to "put her in the mood" and ends up with me getting my intimacy through my new-found assertiveness. I can tell you, it isn't much of a way to have a marriage.
Her needs are first, my needs are last. Is this a problem with the way we are raised today as males and females?
I'm to the point where my wife shows more interest in her toe nails than she does me. I've told her a few times now in the last 6 months I won't stay in a loveless, affectionless, sexless marriage. For me it is just not an option any more. She has been ignoring my warnings which is tell me 1) she wants out, but doesn't want to "be the bad guy" 2) She is perfectly happy with a good man, and a good husband who doesn't have the balls to put and end to it (read she is lazy wants to put forth NO effort or 3) She really doesn't care but doesn't want to divorce because then her life would get really hard.
So, did we come too far around from where we started? Are women not being taught how to be women like men aren't being properly instructed on how to be men?
As I said in the first thread, I was brought up and taught to treat women like princesses. Open doors, throw your coat in a puddle, never hit, treat her like a princess, listen to her attentively, etc. Make sure their needs are met so they have no reason to stray and so on. Just as I was taught. Now, from talking to my grandfather, older gents at work, and so on, I've learned that my upbringing was much the same as theirs, without some of the balance brought from things like assertiveness, etc. We were taught the same thing.
Over the last few weeks I've also been talking to women of various ages (who I was certain wouldn't sue me for sexual harrasment!) about how they were taught to treat men as they were growing up.
My conversations revealed some very interesting things. Most of the women I talked to said they were never really taught anything like us guys are taught growing up. They are taught to be independent, they don't really need men, even though if you find the right one they can make life easier. Some were even taught that men are only after one thing and you can use that to your advantage. Honestly, hearing that kind of blew my mind. Mostly, though, I was hearing a description of what I would call "Modern Women".
Where this gets interesting is the few women at work I talked to who are near retirement age. Some of those women were brought up and their mothers taught them the "50s" female stereotype. Things like, keep a neat house, make yourself up for you husband, greet him when he comes home from work and take care of his physical needs.
What I got out of this was this: It seems to me we went from one extreme to another. We went from a super-submissive woman who gave everything to family and nothing to herself, to a type of woman who doesn't give much to her husband, and everything to herself.
It seems to me that somewhere along the way we are going to have to find a happy medium between the two.
Most relationships I see around me seem to work this way. Husbands are "nice-guys" who are generally at the beck and call of their wives, and they all seem to complain (read want / need) the same things I do. Intimacy, companionship, etc.
Looking back over both of my marriages, I do see them going in the same direction. I do everything my wife wants. Wait on her, help her around the house (she's a SAHM and all our children are adults now), etc. In return I get almost nothing that I require out of the relationship.
When we have discussed this in the past I get the "I do things all the time to show you I love you. I do things around the house, cook you dinner..." etc.
I did a little experiment. I stopped meeting ALL of her needs for about two months. No helping around the house, etc. I just went to work, and came home and did what I wanted. She was furious. So I told her, "I do things all the time that show you I love. I go to work. I bring home a paycheck..." etc. It didn't click. Then I tried to explain to her that I do things for her BECAUSE I love her and I WANT to do things for her. Not to the nice guy level of approval seeking type behavior I used to, but because she's my wife and I genuinely WANT to do some things to help her.
She still doesn't get it. The friends I have who are very happily married have that dynamic. The husband and wife do things for each other, not because they want to, but out of love for the other spouse. A dynamic that hasn't existed in either of my marriages. Both of my marriages have consisted of me going out of my way to meet my wifes needs, and succeeding (both have told me this), but no amount of talking, discussion, etc, brought them around to want to attempt to meet mine.
In short, I've wondered if this disconnect is related to the dramatic shift from the 50's style wife to the modern liberated woman.
I'm thinking this may be the reason why there are so few "balanced" men today. Most of the men I know are either nice-guys or a-holes. I know very few balanced men. As boys we are taught how to meet a womans needs, though not really how to be men. Conversely, most women seem to not be taught how to meet a mans needs (other than being told all men want is sex and they are sex hounds and you should only have sex with your husband if you want to, well, because he's a sex fiend).
I find it odd that in two marriages, when I stopped meeting my spouses needs the objections were loud and often, but when I voice the same concerns they are disregarded with a quick little, "I'll try.". You can't really work on a problem until you find the why of it. I'm still looking for the why.
I'll give you an example. Tomorrow is my 40th birthday. Every year my wife asks me what I want for my birthday. My answer is always the same. I tell her "I want hot monkey lovin'". It is that simple, I don't want a gift, or a party. Just intimacy with enthusiasm. It has been well over 5 years since I've been intimate with my wife on my birthday, or Christmas or any time she asks me what I want for a gift and I tell her intimacy. Even sitting her down and having serious discussions on the whys of my wants, I still go unheard.
My sex life boils down to me still trying to "put her in the mood" and ends up with me getting my intimacy through my new-found assertiveness. I can tell you, it isn't much of a way to have a marriage.
Her needs are first, my needs are last. Is this a problem with the way we are raised today as males and females?
I'm to the point where my wife shows more interest in her toe nails than she does me. I've told her a few times now in the last 6 months I won't stay in a loveless, affectionless, sexless marriage. For me it is just not an option any more. She has been ignoring my warnings which is tell me 1) she wants out, but doesn't want to "be the bad guy" 2) She is perfectly happy with a good man, and a good husband who doesn't have the balls to put and end to it (read she is lazy wants to put forth NO effort or 3) She really doesn't care but doesn't want to divorce because then her life would get really hard.
So, did we come too far around from where we started? Are women not being taught how to be women like men aren't being properly instructed on how to be men?