Zammo

[screwed up the thread title, doh!]

Can a good-looking woman at 50 find love?

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, with many caveats.

We humans operate on two levels:

1. Social expectations. Think about the expectations of romance, courtship, marriage, etc. These are social rules and we try to abide by them. But read below for the other level at which we operate.

2. Biological imperative. We're living things, after all. We need to survive and we need to reproduce. Back in the day, life was all about running around plains and forests trying to find swiftly running animals to eat. Now, life is all about running around offices and businesses trying to find financial reports to give to the boss. But in our genes, we still have motivations and behaviors left over from our earlier history. Those behaviors and motivations simply cannot be ignored.

Men chase women who exhibit signs of fertility and good genes. Typically, that's youth and beauty. Don't like it? Ignore our essential biology at your own peril, frustration, loneliness, and celibacy.

Women chase men who show signs of security and good genes. Typically, that's height, intelligence, strength, social/economic standing, and good looks. Don't like it? Ignore our essential biology at your own peril, frustration, loneliness, and celibacy.

For original poster in another thread, dear Amanda, the situation is challenging but not impossible.

First of all, completely ignore what your friends say about your attractiveness. They could merely be doing the diplomatic thing. (social expectation - they are supposed to say you are attractive). You need to go out in the world in a stylish outfit, makeup, nice shoes (not flats!), and your hair done right (keep it down, not up!). Are you getting attention from men? Are men looking at you and smiling? Are they looking at you at all? This is the true test of attractiveness, seriously. Do you have issues with your figure? Men generally prefer feminine proportions. Get thee some real exercise and yes, deal with your eating habits if necessary. Not only are the extra pounds unhealthy, they are ruining your proportions!

Also, the men to whom you are attracted are likely attractive to most other women. Again, this is a biology thing. The female nay-sayers will be quick to point out "but me and my friends aren't like that!" Ignore that, seriously. That is social expectation talking. You will be competing with many other women for the attentions of the guys to whom you are attracted. You may be competing with much younger women, too. This is the reality of the situation. A strong, confident, successful man can easily find women 10 years younger and below. It's not them being shallow, it's called biology and no amount of social shaming will fix it. Ever.

As there is a competition thing going on, you have to differentiate yourself - through personality, demeanor, and actions - from the rest of the women competing for that guy. Here is a dirty, little secret. The strong, confident, successful alpha men don't want a sassy, feisty, challenging woman. Those kind of men get that every day at work and in business. The male nay-sayers will be quick to point "but me and my friends aren't like that!" Ignore that, seriously. That is social expectation talking.

Biology presents us with a wonderful thing: femininity attracts masculinity. Do you remember all those uniquely feminine qualities you were blessed with? I don't mean the "strong and independent" stuff that two generations of masculine women have propagandized so well. I mean traditional feminine graciousness, pleasantness, joy that women were once expected to have. This is your trump card. While all the other women are being "strong and independent" you are the very model of a real woman who is charming, flirtatious, pleasant happy, and above all, extraordinarily feminine. The alpha men will be all over you, so to speak.

As for how to meet those men? Try online dating as a start. It's great practice and you will meet some good men. Yes, you will meet frogs along with the princes but consider that a learning experience. As for your profile, you must (not optional!) have a section that lists the things that make you a good catch. Here's a secret online dating profile weapon: Write an actual list that starts with the word "you". For example: "Your friends will be jealous of you when they see us together." Or, "You will rarely see me frown because I'm an optimistic and happy person" By putting the word "You" as the first in the sentence, you are telling the potential suitor/romantic partner that his needs are important. You also have the opportunity to describe your positive qualities. So few women understand that the needs/wants of the man are just as important as the needs/wants of a woman vis a vis dating and relationships. This is another trump card for you.

I'm almost 50 myself and I've been doing the online dating thing for about a year. The vast majority of women over 45 simply don't understand men at all. Worse, they have little regard or respect for what a man wants and needs. If you truly want to find love, regardless of age, have far more respect for men or run the risk of acquiring pets as a poor substitute for the real love and intimacy in a relationship with a man.

Now go out and be a real woman!

You're welcome

sisters359

There is absolutely no reason a woman cannot be strong and independent AND gracious, charming, pleasant, and joyful. Also, if it's about biology (young, proportionate, etc.), then the "social" expectation that a woman "needs" to act submissive, needy, weak, etc., does not really matter, does it?

Now, if what you are trying to say is that men do not want a ball-buster as a partner, duh. No surprises there. If you are saying the way we treat our romantic and personal partners needs to be different from how we treat people at work, duh; no surprises there either.

If you are saying that the situation is HOPELESS for a woman who is happy in her own skin, has self-confidence, can be happy alone and is not so DESPERATE for male company that she'll do anything to get it, then no one here will believe you.

I'm sorry but you sound like you have pretty low-self esteem. When you say that the vast majority of women have no regard for the "needs" of men, you are saying that they don't play the game the way YOU think it should be played.

Confident women respect men. They recognize that men have needs just as women do. They recognize that the needs of both parties are equally relevant in any relationship. Yes, there are some women still "stuck" in "man-hating" after they've been burned, and these women may be overly selfish out of fear of losing themselves again to a man who does not deserve them--and of course that is not attractive. But a good, confident man knows how to look past that and knows that he SHOULD because he does not want a woman who is still in need of developing her self-confidence to the point she does not "fear" the power of a man to "make" her lose herself. Nor, I suspect, does a confidant man want a woman who is so desperate for male company that she'll be manipulative (what you've described as having the trump cards.)

If, of course, a woman's goal is to have as many dates as possible with a bunch of losers, then the strategy you recommend will work fine. A man who can fall for such manipulation, and a woman willing to do it, deserve each other. If, on the other hand, her goal is to meet quality men who UNDERSTAND that women can be both happy, confident, joyful, gracious, etc., then she needs to be true to herself and trust that a good man will come along-because he will.

Zammo

Men understand that "strong and independent" is code for bossy and domineering.

At no point did I mention weak or submissive. I merely mentioned being feminine. You're the one associating weakness and submissiveness with femininity.

The current social expectation is about women being strong and independent. Read the online dating profiles of women. You'll see that the majority mention something about independence or strength.

Nice attempt with the shaming language regarding my self esteem. Such shaming language merely indicates I'm right. It's the equivalent of a kid saying "you're a doo-doo head" when he doesn't have a good response.

Understanding men is key to having good relationships with men. What you might call "manipulative" is simply knowing men and doing the things necessary to attract a man. Is there something wrong with attracting a man?

"Confident women respect men." Sure, whatever you say.

"...she needs to be true to herself and trust that a good man will come along-because he will." A rather passive approach, no? Meanwhile, the other women are doing those "manipulative" things and that good man goes for them. Very, very bad advice you are giving.

Hopefully, Amanda the original poster reads my post and takes heed.

Therealbrighteyes

Zammo,
What is femininity to you? I never really understood a man's meaning of it. Is it long hair and heels or are we talking something else?
I am genuinely curious to hear what a man views as feminine.

Mrs.LonelyGal

Me too, for that matter!
I have never felt feminine.... other than my emotions.

Zammo

Ah, what is femininity? I'll address that later today because time constraints prevent me from writing the long response required.

Therealbrighteyes

I look forward to hearing your thoughts. I think each man might be different but surely there is a general theme.

AFEH

I’m right with you Zammo. Bit older though. Just need to get my eyes less than a light-year away from my age as far as a new woman in my life is concerned. I have not seen one thing to disagree with in your posts. I even posted recently that while I may like the self described “strong and confident” women as friends, they are not the type of person I wish to spend my life with.

But I am truly blessed. I live in a world surrounded by the type of women you described. Some “modern and foreign” women here deride them, the way the “don’t” do their hair, their lack of “style” in their choice of clothes. These women here, the vast majority of them look like they spend nothing on their hair. Out of bed, shower and brush their hair. It is one of the most delightfully natural looks I’ve ever seen anywhere. Clothing is extremely relaxed and casual, the overall “natural effect” along with the associated curves in all the right places is a true site to behold.

And guess what? All the men both young and old just love that natural look. The fact that they’re a natural light brown colour, they always look tanned, adds to the overall effect. My wife was the same, very natural and very feminine, without the natural tan.

No I’m not a lecher and I don’t walk around with my tongue hanging out. But I’m a year separated and I am thinking on my next partner for this stage in my life. I’ve seen a few around the right sort of age for me. But I ain’t ready as yet. The way I’m going to find my next partner is to get on and create my new life doing the things I want to do. I know that’s how I’m going to meet her because she’ll be doing similar things and that’s what I need this time round.

Therealbrighteyes

I will ask of you the same question, what is femininity to a man? You mentioned the natural look. For you, that is what you like and appreciate and no doubt easy to find in gorgeous Portugal! Not sure what most guys find to feminine though. When I hear "feminine" I think of a woman in a dress with lace but surely that is not the definition of feminine, so I am confused.

AFEH

Brennan, it sounds like you’re looking for “one rule that fits all”. Men will more than likely have their own definition of what feminine means to them and surely there will be men who have the same definition of femininity.

Take Margaret Thatcher, the ultimate, archetypal “strong and confident woman?”. Does her husband see her as feminine? Surely only he can answer that question? Some men thought of her as a man in a skirt. I have no sexual attraction to her whatsoever while at the same time I appreciate her strong and confident nature. She did a lot of good with that and a lot of bad.

I don’t find women who like to weald a whip feminine at all, I think the opposite in fact. But some men do like it. I don’t find over weight women in the sexual attraction sense feminine at all. But I know they are feminine and I know some men have a sexual attraction to them.

Next time you are in a shopping mall watch the men, young old and everywhere in-between, not to check them out but to see where they look and who they’re looking at. Maybe that will answer your question.

I have at least given you my description of what a feminine woman looks like to me. It’s not just the look though, it’s their deportment and demeanour, their very body language as well. They ooze sex appeal. Plus they are exceedingly “open”, it is the Portuguese way of life. None of this Brit thing of distant shaking of hands on meeting, it’s smiles, hand on shoulder and touching cheeks within 5 minutes. It is an absolute delight. And my goodness can they cook and it’s all natural fresh ingredients. Goodness I’m describing my stbx! But I’m ok with that.

When I came out here I had big problems with my “personal space”. With total strangers this was about a yard. Here they come right in to about a foot away. When first here I did the “merry dance of personal space” they’d get close, I’d move away. It was very comical but now it just doesn’t bother me at all.

Trenton

I think all that was said can apply to a man as well. I just think that men are more willing to not care if a woman is with them only for their status. I think older men can get younger women but only a certain type of younger woman that is looking for status and fortune because, let's face it, no one at 50 is what they were like at 25. Their youthful delight has faded into aged wisdom, if they're lucky. It might just be in America but most men in their 50's here are balding and overweight, have grey hair and wrinkly skin. It's certainly not my ideal.

Basically masculinity and femininity are in the eye of the beholder much like beauty. If all you're looking for is on the outside then the advice in this thread definitely applies to you.

Therealbrighteyes

Great insight, Bob! Yes, I think I am trying to find a general "one size fits all" which is probably counter productive. When I hear a man say he likes feminine though, it leaves me scratching my head. Everybody has a different take on it but I was hoping to get some semblance of general characteristics.
I hear you on the cultural/boundary differences. I was born in the States but my parents immigrated from Sweden. When we would go back there it was hugging and kissing not handshakes, even with distant relatives I had never met. It felt so weird at the time but also so warm and open.

AFEH

I’ve got so used to friendly, civilised and warm good manners. Even very old men I don’t know stop, put a hand on my arm and start talking to me. I was once stopped by a guy and asked if he would mind giving his mother a hug. She’s elderly and blind and apparently loves a hug. Young women in supermarkets all smile and say good morning. Walk into a café and don’t say hello even to complete strangers is considered reserved and uncivilised. If you smile and wave to somebody here, even complete strangers, it comes straight back with no hesitation, no “what’s he after”.

I’m from the south of England. When I go back there I get a real shock. If I behave there as I do here then people look at me as though I’m fresh out of a lunatic asylum. Young mothers with babes in a pram give me a wide birth and seem to have a fear in their face if I smile and say good morning. So I behave differently when there. I ignore them, as though I haven’t seen them. It’s difficult to explain. My son’s partner takes a mile diversion on the way home from the station to give the park across the road a wide berth. The men are very different as well. There’s so much aggression there that it’s no eye contact whatsoever with strangers. How things have changed. This place, Portugal is now my home.

sisters359

Zammo, you were the one who implied that "strength and independence" weren't feminine; the logical implication, then, is that feminine = weak (not strong) and submissive (dependent, not independent) We hear a lot of on this site.

I wasn't trying to shame you by saying you may have low-self-esteem; I was actively saying it as a possibility you should investigate. It's something that happens a lot here-many of us can spot low self-esteem a mile away. Am I always right? Nope. But your hostitilty and defensiveness pretty much says more than anything else I can say.

And you still don't get it--a confident woman isn't trying to "catch" or "attract" a man--she's living her life, joyously. And when a good man happens by, she will know and make room in her life. What you are suggesting is very explicitly a strategy for "attracting a man"--any man, really, and yes, there is something "wrong" with that. What you suggest sounds a lot like "The Rules," and I was very much saying that a confident woman doesn't play those games or ANY games to "attract" a man. She is herself. If that isn't good enough, she is ok with that. But guess what? It IS good enough. Yeah, the angry self-absorbed ball-busters may be alone, but the rest of us who are truly strong, self-confident, and independent, don't have any trouble meeting the kind of men we like.

AFEH

Sisters, I think I kind of get where you are with what you say. But game playing is surely something we all do in one way or another.

There’s obviously the preconceived, very conscience game playing which to me is not the way ahead. Far to manipulative for me. I don’t follow a script.

But in my own way I will “play a game” should I see a woman I’m attracted to. And to be honest I can’t imagine a guy with a more clumsier, unconscious game than me. I don’t do one liners and I don’t do pick up lines. I kind of stumble into things when I feel, for me the chemistry is right.

For me it’s far more important to be able to recognise the subtle attraction signals women send out. I like knocking on doors that are likely to open. It’s interesting when out with either of my sons. They’re good looking guys and I see far more of the way women look at them than they do, they quite simply miss it.

But Sisters what do you do when you see a man you are attracted to? Do you in essence play hard to get or do you make yourself easy to get? Do you tell him straight out you fancy him or some such expression? Do you take time to get to know him? Do you dress differently, say provocatively or demure? Do you go Dutch on a date or expect the man to pay? Have you a special perfume for such occasions? Do you check out his criminal record and financial situation? Do you see how he mixes and socialises with his family and friends? Do you examine what type of parent he is if he has children? If he is divorced do you ask him about his marriage and why they divorced? Etc. etc. Whatever you do, that will be your “game”, be it preconceived and conscious or in essence unconscious. And if you’re actively looking for a man how do you go about that? Whatever you do, that will be your particular “game”

I’m of the opinion that in these things women are far more into game playing and manipulation than men ever will be. And that any women will see right the way through any preconceived game that any man plays. Unless of course the woman is totally dumb or just wants sex for the night. The last sentence is not what OP is on about.