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post #106 of 194 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 06:49 PM
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Re: The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

I thought my marriage after 8 yrs was in serious jeopardy of being over. I was directed to the men`s club and read the book no more mr. nice guy. I wondered how in the beginning how i was in control but until reading the book realized i changed and fell into the many characteristics of mr. nice guy. I stopped being the hot person and cooled down. I honestly noticed a change in my W within 2-3 days, I now go out at least 3 nights a week and do things for myself. I set boundaries within our marriage (from a situation that recently happened that lead me to think it might be over) and she was okay with it. So for now, 3 weeks into it, alot has improved. I stopped being a doormat (not meaning I`m being a **** now) and am more happy, which resulted in a better relationship so far. I know its early in, but if it doesn`t work out, I believe it wouldn`t have worked out if I didn`t man up...and it will help me in the future, with our without her since I will no longer be a doormat.
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post #107 of 194 (permalink) Old 11-14-2011, 04:22 PM
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Re: The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

This post rocked my world. The thermostat idea just seems so spot on, but I seem to be in the opposite spot of most of the people on this thread; I am obviously the cold spouse and my wife is the hot one.

I love her, I really do, but when I'm deeply honest with myself, I don't feel like she is my equal. I've achieved a lot of professional success, hold a lot of interests/hobbies, enjoy a wide circle of friends and all in all feel like a pretty dynamic person.

She on the otherhand (at least from my POV), dislikes her job, is generally lazy (hates her body, won't work out // never does housework until she gets upset by how gross things are // etc.) and her world seems to revolve around me. She almost never goes out on her own and will rarely plan or initiate activities for us to do together - it's always me. I feel like I'm the center of her universe. I always thought I was a crazy person for disliking this but this thread really made me feel less alone.

My marriage really isn't terrible; generally we get along well, don't fight much and are reasonably affectionate. But we have basically stopped having sex. It's been 6 months and before that it was once a month at best. I often feel attacked for having professional ambition (long story and deep issue, but she feels - perhaps rightfully so - that my work is more important to me than her). This kind of stuff has obviously has put a strain on our relationship

What I was hoping to get advice on is how to fix this situation if YOU are the cold one. I love my wife and I want to fix this situation, but I feel like if I suggested some of this stuff, she'd take serious offense. What I really want is for her to lose weight, develop some ambition and find interests that get her out of the house sometimes. But at this point I'd just take a little more distance.

But again, as the COOL one in the relationship I feel like me suggesting her to COOL DOWN wouldn't really turn out well.

Anyone have advice on how a COOL male married to a WARM woman can address this kind of dynamic?

Last edited by TheLostSheep; 11-15-2011 at 09:02 AM.
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post #108 of 194 (permalink) Old 11-15-2011, 02:41 AM
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Re: The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

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Originally Posted by TheLostSheep View Post
But again, as the COOL one in the relationship I feel like me suggesting her to COOL DOWN wouldn't really turn out well.

Anyone have advice on how a COOL male married to a WARM woman can address this kind of dynamic?
Whilst I see the warm / cool thing, it sounds more like you're bothered and she's apathetic.

Is it the case that that the thermostat has allowed you to pinpoint the problem, but isn't necessarily the tool to fix it?

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post #109 of 194 (permalink) Old 11-15-2011, 09:07 AM
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Re: The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

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Whilst I see the warm / cool thing, it sounds more like you're bothered and she's apathetic.

Is it the case that that the thermostat has allowed you to pinpoint the problem, but isn't necessarily the tool to fix it?
Sorry, I could see how it may seem like that, but no I would not say I'm bothered and she is apathetic. If anything, most days I'm probably more likely to just ignore the issue and kind of retreat into a video game or television show. She cares about the issues in our marriage and wants to fix them.

Small update - had a big chat with the W last night. We've decided to put a dedicated hour in our schedules twice a week where we do nothing but talk with each other about the relationship. I suggested MC, but she's always been very cool to that idea but at least this is us actively addressing the issue.

I saw on another thread in this forum that these kind of issues are often bred from festering resentment - I found this similarly enlightening to the temperature idea. I mentioned this to her and it was received well and sparked a good discussion.

I think a good bit of our weekly sessions could revolve around discussion our resentments. Any tips on how to keep positive momentum when we've decided to talk about our resentments of each other? Does anyone disagree that this is a good idea?
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post #110 of 194 (permalink) Old 11-15-2011, 09:19 AM
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Re: The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

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Originally Posted by TheLostSheep View Post
Sorry, I could see how it may seem like that, but no I would not say I'm bothered and she is apathetic. If anything, most days I'm probably more likely to just ignore the issue and kind of retreat into a video game or television show. She cares about the issues in our marriage and wants to fix them.

Small update - had a big chat with the W last night. We've decided to put a dedicated hour in our schedules twice a week where we do nothing but talk with each other about the relationship. I suggested MC, but she's always been very cool to that idea but at least this is us actively addressing the issue.

I saw on another thread in this forum that these kind of issues are often bred from festering resentment - I found this similarly enlightening to the temperature idea. I mentioned this to her and it was received well and sparked a good discussion.

I think a good bit of our weekly sessions could revolve around discussion our resentments. Any tips on how to keep positive momentum when we've decided to talk about our resentments of each other? Does anyone disagree that this is a good idea?
If you are the much 'cooler' partner, you can help equalize the temperature in your relationship by becoming 'warmer' - by becoming more invested in your relationship and showing that to your spouse instead of always pulling away.

You might want to get the book "His Needs, Her Needs" and spend some time looking at the marriagebuilders.com web-site. It has an 'outline' and questionnaires of how you can go about determining what kinds of things fulfill you (called 'emotional needs') and want kinds of things don't (called 'love busters') that can aid you and your wife in your discussions.

Some articles from that site you may be interested in:

The Most Important Emotional Needs

Love Busters

Emotional Needs Questionnaire

Best wishes.

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post #111 of 194 (permalink) Old 11-15-2011, 01:41 PM
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Re: The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

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Originally Posted by TheLostSheep View Post
Sorry, I could see how it may seem like that, but no I would not say I'm bothered and she is apathetic. If anything, most days I'm probably more likely to just ignore the issue and kind of retreat into a video game or television show. She cares about the issues in our marriage and wants to fix them.
OK, sorry. It just looked like you wanted to change something and she didn't. Based on what you've just said (and written above), you have the potential to take action, but can't be bothered, she wants things to happen but can't / won't make a move.

I'm not sure that the emotional thermostat quite describes this situation. Her smothering you doesn't seem to be coming from being over "hot" as much from having a basically empty (from her perspective) life, with only you in it.
Quote:
Small update - had a big chat with the W last night. We've decided to put a dedicated hour in our schedules twice a week where we do nothing but talk with each other about the relationship. I suggested MC, but she's always been very cool to that idea but at least this is us actively addressing the issue.
Communication ought to help, but beware the sort of discussions where all you do is reinforce your positions,.

Quote:
I saw on another thread in this forum that these kind of issues are often bred from festering resentment - I found this similarly enlightening to the temperature idea. I mentioned this to her and it was received well and sparked a good discussion.

I think a good bit of our weekly sessions could revolve around discussion our resentments. Any tips on how to keep positive momentum when we've decided to talk about our resentments of each other? Does anyone disagree that this is a good idea?
If you haven't seen it, have a read of this thread.

Wanna be like newlyweds in heat again? Do this or fugedabodit

Food for thought, if nothing else.

Kushti divvus, pali i peni!
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post #112 of 194 (permalink) Old 03-07-2012, 06:36 AM
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Re: The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

So this post hits me spot on right now. We just had a pretty big fight were she informed me that she was not sure if she was still in love with me. As the 'Hot' one in the marriage, I was really bothered. I have been doing a lot of reading and searching since then and I realize I need to change just as much, if not more, than she does. I have read NMMNG and am going to read Hold On To Your N.U.T.s.

So I am really trying to 'cool off', but it is really difficult. I have not initiated any physical contact; I have not said I love you; I am trying to do things on my own; I am trying to be positive and upbeat...But I am having a real hard time with not having contact, or hearing her say I love you...I know that this is my insecurities and my "nice guy syndrome" getting to me...Any tips on how to make those voices stop?
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post #113 of 194 (permalink) Old 04-26-2012, 07:55 PM
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Re: The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

Well I just stumbled onto this site and in particular this thread and it has described my marriage of late to a tee.
I am now trying to deal with a wife who has emotionally quit the marriage and thrown herself into her work and her relationship with her mother.
I tried the 180 techniques a few weeks ago and that made her even colder and accuse me of abandoning her! Perhaps somewhere in between (as these techniques seem to be) is a good approach.
My wife says she loves me and wants to work it out but does nothing to make it better. I did force the issue the other day and say she has to either go to a MC with me or seek professional help herself as her just being distant and no physical contact is not working for me at all and I cannot remain in that sort of relationship. My wife finds it hard to express emotions and even talk candidly about our problems and I am afraid I have let them go ignored for far too many years (as I am sure she has with problems she perceives with me)
We have been married 14 years and together 18, we have to wonderful children 8 & 4 which we both adore and are great parents to but this emotional abandonment is now affecting them as we now are sometimes arguing in front of them.
I am not looking for answers as I know each case is unique (although they all have much similarities) but to discuss it openly with people who have similar situations would be nice.
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post #114 of 194 (permalink) Old 04-28-2012, 12:25 PM
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Re: The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

1. She will say she loves me, but never says she is in love with me. I find myself avoiding saying IAILWY because I don't want to feel hurt by the lack of similiar reply.
2. I generally call or text first, but she does text or call me, usually if she needs something, hasn't for a long time just for 'no reason'.
3. I'm always the one who is saying sorry, no matter what seems to happen. So scared to lose my marriage.
4. She knows when I'm very upset, and in turn she ends up getting upset with me, even if I'm trying to keep it to myself.5. I apologize profusely and repeatedly when I do something wrong, for the same reason as (3).
6. Wife initiates a hug or peck on the lips from time to time but hasn't initiated sex in a long time.
7. Anxiety causes me to want to talk about and fix things, she swears that nothing is wrong. I back off
8. She does housework but has backed off a lot since I picked up workload a year ago, I wasn't really doing my share, but now I'm doing about 75% of everything inside, and 100% outside. In her defense she is in school full time and working at home most nights doing transcription.
9. Her needs come first, usually I'll do just about anything to be close to her, I can't seem to get away from doing that.
10. I don't even know what she approves of in terms of me sometimes, other than getting a thank you for housework or taking care of the kids specifically.
11. I'm incredibly anxious and fearful when she is mad at me.
12. I do get upset when she does not initiate sex, however it is deeper than that, it is just that the sexual contact is where the focal point can be seen. The lack of emotional attachment to me is what is the driving force behind my frustration with that, lack of intimacy.

Quote:
The COOL partner wants less warmth so they:
1. React irritably/with hostility to HOT behaviors such as:
a. Discussions about the R
b. Requests for sex. An irritated NO when asked for sex is an attempt to throw a bucket of ice water on a painfully overheated moment
2. Often behave more and more disrespectfully to their warmer partner and often steadily deprioritize both the partner and the R hoping to lower the temperature
3. Provoke their partner to create conflict and space
Yes, except 2 isn't really like her, and 3 isn't at all, she's more likely to shy away from any sort of conflict.

Quote:
The Warm partner thinks they are repeatedly conveying I LOVE YOU with all this activity. The Cooler partner actually hears it as a question, repeated over and over ad nauseum: Do YOU love ME? Imagine if you replaced every loving act by literally asking Do you love me? How well do you think THAT would fly.
Yes, this is pretty big, been trying to not care so much about it but again intimacy, or lack thereof, is tough.

Quote:
The core message this thermostat mismatch sends to the cooler partner is: I DONT DESERVE YOU. And over time your behavior convinces them you are right.
If this is true, I have to really do some things differently.


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post #115 of 194 (permalink) Old 04-28-2012, 12:41 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

Po,
It really is ok if she never initiates sex. It is fairly common. The big question is: how often do you initiate and how often does she reject you?

As for the apologizing thing. Try something different. When you weren't in the wrong, don't apologize. Keep communication minimal for the rest of the day and start tomorrow fresh as if nothing had happened.

Why do you think she might leave you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Po12345 View Post
1. She will say she loves me, but never says she is in love with me. I find myself avoiding saying IAILWY because I don't want to feel hurt by the lack of similiar reply.
2. I generally call or text first, but she does text or call me, usually if she needs something, hasn't for a long time just for 'no reason'.
3. I'm always the one who is saying sorry, no matter what seems to happen. So scared to lose my marriage.
4. She knows when I'm very upset, and in turn she ends up getting upset with me, even if I'm trying to keep it to myself.5. I apologize profusely and repeatedly when I do something wrong, for the same reason as (3).
6. Wife initiates a hug or peck on the lips from time to time but hasn't initiated sex in a long time.
7. Anxiety causes me to want to talk about and fix things, she swears that nothing is wrong. I back off
8. She does housework but has backed off a lot since I picked up workload a year ago, I wasn't really doing my share, but now I'm doing about 75% of everything inside, and 100% outside. In her defense she is in school full time and working at home most nights doing transcription.
9. Her needs come first, usually I'll do just about anything to be close to her, I can't seem to get away from doing that.
10. I don't even know what she approves of in terms of me sometimes, other than getting a thank you for housework or taking care of the kids specifically.
11. I'm incredibly anxious and fearful when she is mad at me.
12. I do get upset when she does not initiate sex, however it is deeper than that, it is just that the sexual contact is where the focal point can be seen. The lack of emotional attachment to me is what is the driving force behind my frustration with that, lack of intimacy.



Yes, except 2 isn't really like her, and 3 isn't at all, she's more likely to shy away from any sort of conflict.

Yes, this is pretty big, been trying to not care so much about it but again intimacy, or lack thereof, is tough.


If this is true, I have to really do some things differently.
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post #116 of 194 (permalink) Old 04-28-2012, 12:59 PM
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Re: The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

Are we married to the same woman?

Or is it more correct to say there is a very neat template at play here!

I am in the early days of this journey and I really don't know where it will go, but I know I will come out of the other side a better person!

Remember work on yourself, become the best man you can become, if you need to get fit lose weight, stop being needy.

I was in the same situation about the contact, she never bothered contacting me, I was forever sending her silly texts and calling her, that was the first thing I stopped doing, it's hard at first because we have been conditioned (mainly by women and well meaning men) that's what women want, on the fluffy bunny level of pink hearts and running off into the sunset, but on a biological level it just does not work.

I am doing my own thing, looking after myself and in the best tradition of Athol Kay I am destabilising the marriage on purpose, if it lasts and gets better good, but if it ends I will be in a much better position.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Po12345 View Post
1. She will say she loves me, but never says she is in love with me. I find myself avoiding saying IAILWY because I don't want to feel hurt by the lack of similiar reply.
2. I generally call or text first, but she does text or call me, usually if she needs something, hasn't for a long time just for 'no reason'.
3. I'm always the one who is saying sorry, no matter what seems to happen. So scared to lose my marriage.
4. She knows when I'm very upset, and in turn she ends up getting upset with me, even if I'm trying to keep it to myself.5. I apologize profusely and repeatedly when I do something wrong, for the same reason as (3).
6. Wife initiates a hug or peck on the lips from time to time but hasn't initiated sex in a long time.
7. Anxiety causes me to want to talk about and fix things, she swears that nothing is wrong. I back off
8. She does housework but has backed off a lot since I picked up workload a year ago, I wasn't really doing my share, but now I'm doing about 75% of everything inside, and 100% outside. In her defense she is in school full time and working at home most nights doing transcription.
9. Her needs come first, usually I'll do just about anything to be close to her, I can't seem to get away from doing that.
10. I don't even know what she approves of in terms of me sometimes, other than getting a thank you for housework or taking care of the kids specifically.
11. I'm incredibly anxious and fearful when she is mad at me.
12. I do get upset when she does not initiate sex, however it is deeper than that, it is just that the sexual contact is where the focal point can be seen. The lack of emotional attachment to me is what is the driving force behind my frustration with that, lack of intimacy.



Yes, except 2 isn't really like her, and 3 isn't at all, she's more likely to shy away from any sort of conflict.

Yes, this is pretty big, been trying to not care so much about it but again intimacy, or lack thereof, is tough.


If this is true, I have to really do some things differently.
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post #117 of 194 (permalink) Old 04-29-2012, 09:13 AM
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Re: The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

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Originally Posted by Bluemoon1 View Post
Are we married to the same woman?
Well, if we are then there is a whole new host of problems I'm going to be dealing with LOL

Quote:
Or is it more correct to say there is a very neat template at play here!

I am in the early days of this journey and I really don't know where it will go, but I know I will come out of the other side a better person!
This is where I'm at. At the beginning of this, a year ago in March, I kept thinking "I wish I could get back to being happy" but the idea of "I wish I could get back..." to anything is not the right way to approach this. I need to get better, that's it, that's all. A journey is never complete if you keep circling back around to where you were.

Quote:
Remember work on yourself, become the best man you can become, if you need to get fit lose weight, stop being needy.

I was in the same situation about the contact, she never bothered contacting me, I was forever sending her silly texts and calling her, that was the first thing I stopped doing, it's hard at first because we have been conditioned (mainly by women and well meaning men) that's what women want, on the fluffy bunny level of pink hearts and running off into the sunset, but on a biological level it just does not work.
My personality has always been quirky, the silly fun happy go lucky type guy. So when depression set in last year, and high anxiety (stress), I was not exactly prepared for it, and because my wife has anxiety/depression issues long term, leaning on her didn't help us both much. I think there was a period of time where, in some ways, she found comfort in the fact that I did love her enough that I would be hurt by the idea of us not being together, but she's really wanted me to get better so we can move beyond this. It is still VERY hard for me to NOT send her little texts, emails, a nice "hey you" phone call, for no reason other than to hear her voice and let her know I care.

Quote:
I am doing my own thing, looking after myself and in the best tradition of Athol Kay I am destabilising the marriage on purpose, if it lasts and gets better good, but if it ends I will be in a much better position.
I am not sure I follow the Athol Kay reference... I am trying now to just be a good husband and father, my attempts at a 180 are very difficult because I am a very giving and caring person, so the idea of laying in bed with my back to my wife, ignoring her, is quite foreign to me. But, it is a process, and I know that the 180 is designed not to just pull intimacy from someone who is taking advangage of you, but it is also designed to make you stronger by preparing you for what it would be like if you were NOT being intimate with this person, which of course is always a possibility.


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post #118 of 194 (permalink) Old 04-29-2012, 09:27 AM
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Re: The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

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Originally Posted by MEM2020 View Post
Po,
It really is ok if she never initiates sex. It is fairly common. The big question is: how often do you initiate and how often does she reject you?
About half the time I initiate I get rejected, so a lot of times I take care of myself, if you know what I mean. I probably initiate 4 to 5 times a week and we actually have sex on average once every 4 or 5 days. So I would say most of the time I get rejected. But she also recognizes that I have a higher libido than she does, in her words "You are a twice a day kind of person, and I'm a twice a week". We have done some compromising, she likes when I take care of myself when I'm laying beside her, says it is a turn on, so about half the time I do that it ends up with us having sex. But being raised Catholic there is still that stigma about doing that in front of anyone else, the whole "shame" thing. So most of the time I handle things on my own, I do it in private. But when I do that, she says she feels like I don't find her attractive enough or something, which is frustrating.

Quote:
As for the apologizing thing. Try something different. When you weren't in the wrong, don't apologize. Keep communication minimal for the rest of the day and start tomorrow fresh as if nothing had happened.
I have done this from time to time, I'll leave in the morning without much of a goodbye, then when I get home she seems far more communicative, especially if I walk in the door and don't say much, I can tell she gets concerned that something is wrong. But it is VERY difficult for me to work the 180 because of my personality, I love talking to her, I love her, she's my best friend.

Quote:
Why do you think she might leave you?
She went to see an ex boyfriend a year ago, a guy that had totally screwed her over 12 years ago, they did not have sex but they were at his hotel talking for several hours, and she lied about it, then lied about the context of the event. I found out about it from a journal, after she said she wasn't sure she loved me or if she wanted to be with me, so I started snooping and found the journal. Scathing stuff written about me, and all of this banter going back and forth about this other guy, longing to be with him, then in the next journal post, cussing him out, then in the next one, chastising herself for even thinking about the other man. So she's incredibly conflicted, to the point that she actually put a pistol to her head when she got back from seeing him, she told me about that later.

To his credit he doesn't seem to be leading her on but he's still a piece of shxt, and apparently he's separating from his wife and is screwing around with at least one younger woman, maybe two.

She tells me there is no way she would ever go to him, because of what he did to her, but then I see where she'll be searching him online all the time, pining over his pictures online, looking at his online personal pages at different social sites, like 5, 6, 7 or more times a day. That frustrates me greatly.


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post #119 of 194 (permalink) Old 04-29-2012, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

Po,
You need a very different type of help than an anonymous poster on the internet can provide.

Your W is in love with someone else. Obssessed, thinking about how he will soon be divorced and maybe available.

And you are allowing her to do this.

This whole romantic love thing you have in your head: "I love her too much to enforce my boundaries" is going to end very badly for you.

She loves you a lot LESS because you don't enforce boundaries.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Po12345 View Post
About half the time I initiate I get rejected, so a lot of times I take care of myself, if you know what I mean. I probably initiate 4 to 5 times a week and we actually have sex on average once every 4 or 5 days. So I would say most of the time I get rejected. But she also recognizes that I have a higher libido than she does, in her words "You are a twice a day kind of person, and I'm a twice a week". We have done some compromising, she likes when I take care of myself when I'm laying beside her, says it is a turn on, so about half the time I do that it ends up with us having sex. But being raised Catholic there is still that stigma about doing that in front of anyone else, the whole "shame" thing. So most of the time I handle things on my own, I do it in private. But when I do that, she says she feels like I don't find her attractive enough or something, which is frustrating.



I have done this from time to time, I'll leave in the morning without much of a goodbye, then when I get home she seems far more communicative, especially if I walk in the door and don't say much, I can tell she gets concerned that something is wrong. But it is VERY difficult for me to work the 180 because of my personality, I love talking to her, I love her, she's my best friend.



She went to see an ex boyfriend a year ago, a guy that had totally screwed her over 12 years ago, they did not have sex but they were at his hotel talking for several hours, and she lied about it, then lied about the context of the event. I found out about it from a journal, after she said she wasn't sure she loved me or if she wanted to be with me, so I started snooping and found the journal. Scathing stuff written about me, and all of this banter going back and forth about this other guy, longing to be with him, then in the next journal post, cussing him out, then in the next one, chastising herself for even thinking about the other man. So she's incredibly conflicted, to the point that she actually put a pistol to her head when she got back from seeing him, she told me about that later.

To his credit he doesn't seem to be leading her on but he's still a piece of shxt, and apparently he's separating from his wife and is screwing around with at least one younger woman, maybe two.

She tells me there is no way she would ever go to him, because of what he did to her, but then I see where she'll be searching him online all the time, pining over his pictures online, looking at his online personal pages at different social sites, like 5, 6, 7 or more times a day. That frustrates me greatly.
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post #120 of 194 (permalink) Old 04-29-2012, 10:03 AM
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Re: The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

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Po,
You need a very different type of help than an anonymous poster on the internet can provide.

Your W is in love with someone else. Obssessed, thinking about how he will soon be divorced and maybe available.

And you are allowing her to do this.

This whole romantic love thing you have in your head: "I love her too much to enforce my boundaries" is going to end very badly for you.

She loves you a lot LESS because you don't enforce boundaries.
We have talked about it at greath length, she insists over and over that she's never going to him, that he "screwed me over", etc. They don't text/call one another, there is nothing sexual in the Facebook stuff, but yes this is a major problem. From time to time she has talked about how she's trying hard to get over him, she will delete him from Facebook, but then add him back later on. She always has some odd excuse about it too. I am not sure how deep a person can say this is in terms of an emotional affair as there is really no participation. The one incredibly WRONG thing that happened was them visiting one another.

I tried talking to her about it last night but the conversation got turned to something else, we were having a very good intimate conversation at dinner about some other issues so I didn't get it steered back to the other man, but it will, very shortly. I'm trying to work on what I'm going to say, because inevitably she first plays the ANGER card, says mean things to me, then she plays the MAYBE WE SHOULDN'T BE TOGETHER card, and finally breaks down crying with the I AM SUCH A BAD PERSON, I AM WORTHLESS card.

I do NOT know why seemingly any conversation dealing with the deep issues that have hurt us ALWAYS seem to fall into this same spiraling argument, I try and defer, to deflect, to steer it back, and keep it sane and keep the emotions out of it as much as possible, but inevitably she gets all pissed off at me, and ends up turning my unhappiness into something I should apologize to HER for.

Right now I'm working the 180 to build up my resilience and to show that I'm a strong MAN, and not some wimp who just allows his wife to love another man. The other man may have absolutely no idea how much she loves him, she may say that she would never ever go to him, she may even deny now that she does love him, but that doesn't make this any easier for me, to try and decide if this is worth the effort I am making to fix things.


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