MEM11363

MNG,
I am sorry you are going through this. I just read all these other posts. Notice something: They are VERY consistent. There is a reason for that, it is because they are correct.

Bear with me for a moment and I will give you some context and then some specific suggestions. Sadly my expertise in this area comes from having a spouse who occasionally loses her mind and then initiates a "precipice dance" with me. Through practice I have learned something fascinating from these dances. In a long term relationship there is a fixed and large amount of fear about it ending. That fear cannot be destroyed nor can it be minimized. It can only be shifted from one person to the other.

So the way it works goes like this. If your W initiates a separation or divorce and you seem terrified it COMPLETELY removes her fear of any consequence because at an emotional level she becomes certain that you will be her safety net. So from a practical standpoint her life just got better. She gets to look for an "upgrade" while knowing that you will GLADLY take her back under ANY TERMS if she fails. So she literally has nothing to lose.

That said the ideal separation agreement looks like this:
- You will mutually agree to "money" management rules
- You will mutually agree to sharing the child care responsibilities
- You will BOTH actively date other people. Neither of you will bring anyone over to sleep at the house unless you reach a decision to divorce at which point the kids will be informed and if you - as the guy in the house - are seeing someone seriously she will start sleeping over.
- You WANT her to do whatever she wants to do and after experiencing whatever that is make a fully informed decision
- And YOU WILL DO THE SAME - starting effective immediately
- If at some point she wishes to revisit the idea of rapprochement - the PRECONDITIONS to even discussing that are as follows:
a. She provides an unconditional apology to you for her deceitful behavior regarding the other man (you say she won't do this - I beg to differ - she has NEVER been in this situation before. I would wager 2 weeks ago you would have sworn she was not capable of an affair. I can say with certainty - if she is capable of an affair she is capable of an apology.
b. She understands that a sexless marriage is not a marriage and that if she cannot return to your marital bed with a loving heart she is not welcome back into the marriage (MNG - your W has a libido - a sexless marriage will precipitate more affairs - don't allow it)
c. She understands that there will be no discussion of who you or she slept with in the interim. She is moving out and in doing so forfeiting ANY right as to knowledge of your sex life while separated.

Provided she is willing to meet those preconditions and provided you haven't yet found a more suitable partner, you will be open to discussing a "restart" to the marriage.

I realize this sounds aggressive. It isn't. It is a firm statement of boundaries to a spouse who has tried to stomp your needs into the dust.

If you think for a moment - that your very deceitful wife will follow ANY rules of engagement while living in an apartment and completely away from your prying eyes - you are sadly, sadly mistaken.

If you are able to summon the courage to take the steps above, you will actually be maximizing the odds your children one day celebrate your 40th wedding anniversary. Because you will be putting most/if not all the fear of consequence on her.

This WILL be ugly. She will claim you WANT to cheat on her. Do not respond and do not defend. Simply state:
"You are moving out, and I am moving on". And if she attempts to get family to intercede just email them and copy her:
"My W is abandoning the family to pursue her own agenda. She is doing this on the heals of a MASSIVE BREACH of conduct she is not even willing to acknowledge. I am simply proactively moving forward with my life"

Powerbane

Mem - you rock!

MEM11363

I think it is important to clarify something really important to me.
1. I am very pro marriage
2. Very Pro fidelity
3. Very pro raising children in a house where the parents model MUTUALLY respectful behavior and treat each other the way THEY want to be treated and in some cases "insist" on being treated
4. Strongly opposed to deceiving your partner

My advice to MNG is completely consistent with these priorities. I sincerely believe he will MINIMIZE the odds of divorce AND infidelity if he follows it. Failing that, they both may/will end up having sex with others for a while. I hope that does not happen. I also believe that it may take the shock of seeing him with another woman to wake his W up. If that is what it takes to "save" the marriage before irreparable harm is done, then so be it.

Lately - without meaning to - he has repeatedly given her the message that he will be "there for her" no matter what. He has tried not to. But he is struggling. My advice is targeted at reversing that message and hoping she speedily comes to her senses.

MEM11363

Thanks PowerB,
You have given MNG some solid advice as well.

MisterNiceGuy

MEM, hear you loud and clear!

Wife is really cranked up tonight. I can feel a fight brewing, she is just stomping around house and not talking to me after a pretty friendly day. Carrying around her iPhone like it was the most precious thing in the world. I wonder if she is having withdrawals... Something is up with her tonight. She has been in and out of her office all night. I'm not going to talk to her in this mood about a separation agreement. Maybe tomorrow... Just want to get the kids to bed and have a glass of wine.

MisterNiceGuy

MEM, do you think I put your suggestions in writing, or just verbally?

Conrad

Start verbally.

If she needs to see the above in writing - do it.

But, show absolutely no emotion or "give" on these points. (No matter how much you want to inside)

Stay the course.

__________________
"Forgive or Re-Live"

-AFEH

MisterNiceGuy

MEM, a point of clarification. What do you mean here? What decision? About staying married? I'm just trying to get this all straight in my head before I hit her up with it before she moves out.

If she balks (which I'm pretty sure she will), but doesn't get the family to intercede should I still send the note suggested? or start with divorce proceedings?

MEM11363

MNG,
The point of her moving out is to evaluate her options. Should she remain in the M, or would she be happier with another man. And that IS the point, since it simply is not credible to claim that this move is intended to help her/you "work on the M". It is especially not true given recent events.

So you make it easy for HER, and honestly also for you by telling her that you both WILL date and if desired, sleep with other people. This is simply openly insisting that you describe what she plans to do anyway. But you do it in a perfectly calm, constructive manner.

She is going to "deny" that she plans to have affairs. Sorry I don't buy it. The MAIN difference between staying home and working on the marriage and moving out and "working" on the marriage is that it will be impossible for you to have any idea if she is pursuing/engaging in an affair. While there might be some situations where the move out is about "needing space", this isn't one of them. You are not crowding her, and really she just stopped a quarter step from beginning a full blown affair.

So instead of arguing/asking her to leave but "promise" not to cheat, you give her a guilt free pass to go do so while simultaneously giving yourself a pass to do the same.

So it kind of goes like this. Once she moves out:
1. You are both immediately free to pursue other options. And given where the marriage is, that is the healthiest thing to do. 2. Those relationships will be kept separate from the kids and
3. There will be no questions/discussion between us regarding any other relationships we may be in

I think there is a 50-50 chance this immediately kills her desire to move out as it completely destabilizes the M, and could result in her losing the "easy option" to go out, knock boots with another man, decide you are the "one", and stroll back in with the same disrespectful attitude she has been displaying that lead to this whole mess. You can't allow that. The real issue here isn't her it is you. She expects that if she promises not to cheat you will believe her (sorry but you should not) and take her back when it becomes convenient to her. But that whole plan is predicated on the idea that YOU will simply sit around the house pining for her to return.

Once she learns you not only "might" date other women, but that you WILL be aggressively dating other women, ALL that security of MNG as her safety net/plan B, disappears. That loss of security will stop MANY spouses in their tracks.

But you CANNOT explain the psychology here - or you kill the impact. You simply stick with the simple words that she is moving out right after a GIANT BREACH of trust, and that you will be moving on.

I would also add that you believe it is critically important she get a full time job as that will also help her evaluate what life without you would be like.

She will almost certainly ask if you want a divorce. I think the only answer at this point is: How I feel, and what I want are not up for discussion. I am simply telling you the rules of engagement.

She may also say that she has NO INTENTION of cheating, and that if you do, she will divorce you. And I think you have a choice here. You can go "beta light" or "alpha".
Beta light response: You just totally breached faith. We both know that you could have as much emotional/physical space as you want and still remain in the house. Clearly moving out holds some other appeal. (If she accuses you of distrust I would simply say "You have totally violated my trust - it will take time to rebuild - moving out at this point in time creates MORE distrust".)

Alpha response: You are moving out. I accept that. I am giving both of us permission to do whatever we want during the separation. I am not "cheating" because I am not lying/deceiving you, as I did not like it when that was done to me. If my dating other women - a response to you abandoning our family - results in you filing for divorce, you should file now because I AM going to date others in your absence.

When she ANGRILY states she has zero intention to have an affair I think the best response is: "Recent events have shown otherwise. And I accept that. Not only will I tolerate you dating others, I insist you do so to get it out of your system. Go scratch this "fantasy" itch of yours and then decide if the fantasy lives up to reality. If it does, I imagine you will file. If not, you will need to decide whether you want to make the effort to repair our marriage.

And be low key, and calm about this. Really there is nothing to get worked up about. She either respects you enough to want to remain married, or not. But you CANNOT allow a situation where she abandons, makes it easy for her to have affairs, but threatens a D if you do the same thing.

This is indeed becoming a very high stakes game. Just remember something, it is easy to talk divorce, a whole nother thing entirely to go to a lawyer, strategize and then FILE.

This whole sequence is intended to demand one thing and one thing only. Respect. Because for now, she is treating you without respect. And you have to change that or the marriage is utterly doomed.

Affaircare

At this point it sounds like your wife had a fairly typical "Affair Fantasy" going in her head. Here's what an "Affair Fantasy" might look like:

"Hubby ignores me, neglects me, only thinks of me as a sex object. The house is never clean enough, and all he ever does is yell at me. I haven't loved him for YEARS. But OM.... He is kind and thoughtful and loving. He WANTS to be with me and thinks of my feelings. He'll do those little things and makes the effort to be loving. He knows my needs before I even express them and he can meet them effortlessly and flawlessly. I meet his needs just by smiling and sharing a smooshy email with him! He doesn't grope me--we want to have sex because we have a connection! Maybe I could divorce hubby, after all don't I deserve to be happy? My family would be happy for me and support me in divorcing. The kids would meet OM and love him. I would get the house, the kids, child support and alimony--all my friends say I should do it! And then I could move OM into the house and we would live together in 'happily-ever-after' bliss because we were destined to be together! We would all get along and there would be no more fights! I bet he would never yell at me about the dishes like hubby does. Then hubby and I could be friends and be civil for the sake of the kids"

Sounds REAL realistic, doesn't it? Here's reality: the OM has no intention whatsoever of leaving his wife and kids for her--he just wanted into her pants--another "conquest"!! She will lose the house and half of the family assets--some of the possessions she considers precious, she will lose. She will lose HALF of the time with her children--if not more--and will not be there to tuck them in every night. She will no longer have your financial support; she won't get alimony; and the child support is not something she can even care for the kids with! She will have to get a job and won't have the pleasure of being a SAHM any more. She will probably have to move to a little apartment, and there will be no one to help her move because she LEFT her life partner; SHE will have carry the washer or pay someone handsomely to do it for her. She will have to do all the household repairs and car repairs now. The kids will meet OM and HATE HIM. They will be disrespectful and scream at him that he broke up their family. Her family will tell her what she's doing is wrong and they won't accept him into their homes for years. She will be an angry, bitter, desperate, dumped single mother in her mid- or later- (30s? 40s?) with no cash or assets; YOU will be a free, suave, handsome, available man at the prime of your life with the best earning potential of your LIFE!

Here's reality. You made a vow to her when you two were young. You two built a life together. You are willing to heal after this assault on your marriage, under certain conditions. She can choose to figure out P.D.Q. what is reality and get to working on fixing the mess she's made...or you will also begin to cast about looking for "better options" and experiences so you can make a more fully informed decision whether you want to stay with a person who's willing to throw all this away.

* * * * *

BTW, I do agree with what MEM and Conrad are telling you here, and I would word it exactly as they have been suggesting, but I'm just telling you right now that I personally think dating at this time would be a mistake for you. Here's why.

If you were to indicate to her that YOU are going to consider your options too and see if there isn't a "better match" for you out there, well shoot. You and I both know that out of the sea of ladies out there, there probably is another who'd make you pretty happy. DUH! The idea is to let her realize that she is not the only one who can "look around." Rather than saying "I'm going out on a date with that redhead I always had a crush on in the steno pool"--which if you ever did reconcile would be sort of a toughie to get past--just say "I'm going out so I won't be available" and when she says "With who? Where you going?" you say "I have made plans and I'm not disposed to tell you at this time." Meanwhile, I'm sure you're not blind (or dead). You know that women occasionally check you out or that if you dressed up or smelled good that women would. I don't really think that's the issue. The issue here, I think, is for HER to realize that.

And I recommend not dating because of this scenario--you decide to date, and a couple are just casual, kind of "cup of coffee" nice ladies, but the fourth one--WOW! She's good looking, funny, smart, sexy, flirty and obviously into you...and you don't mean to but you two start to hook up. You're honest with her and tell her you're separated and yet you can't help it, this woman is amazing! And right about then your wife says, "Honey, let's try to work this out. I have seen the error of my ways. I am willing to be transparent and admit what I did was wrong. I even have gone to some counseling and realize I had some personal issues." Now what happens? You hurt yourself either way--and either you break your vows to your wife or you break the heart of the new lady, whom you used.

Thus, during this time when nothing is really official, I suggest that saying you'll be out thing...and then practice a little with groups. Go to a Divorce Support groups with men and women. Go to a mixed bowling league. Go to Boy Scouts! LOL Remind yourself that you can be desired, and remind yourself of the things you do to "look and smell good" before you go out, etc. Those are some things you could start doing again to bring back that man your wife loves who is the REAL YOU.

This will also help her to realize that she's not the only one who could look around and find someone "better." There are plenty of women out there who'd be more than willing to be step-mom to her kids, take your financial security and all you can offer, and have a clear understanding that sex is not a weapon or a reward! So help clear her fog.

__________________
Helping couples recover and reconcile after an affair or keep their marriages affair-free at Affaircare.

The 180 * Coping With Infidelity Newbies--Please read this!

MEM11363

I agree with AC. Your W NEEDS to BELIEVE you are out dating and maybe having sex. But at least for a couple months you should not actually dive into a relationship/or have sex with someone. You DO have to establish ground rules where she is not allowed to ask. And you WILL have to enforce them as she WILL ask. Just say "we agreed not to discuss that". And be silent after that no matter what she says.

I also think a couple of "sleepovers" are a good thing. They will actually just be you crashing discreetly at a trusted friends house, but she won't know that.

Right now she thinks that SHE is your only option. And that YOU are her PLAN B. That has to change before your marriage can begin to heal.

MisterNiceGuy

MEM and AC those are great posts!

We had already been to the Beta-lite separation before I dropped the bomb. She was going to live downstairs until we figured it out, but that lasted a total of one night and she was back upstairs the next day (then started planning dates with the OM at the same time and that's when I knew I had to end it). If I have the guts, I might go the Alpha route this time to rattle her cage. It's true though she can have all the space she needs here in this house. We have a big house and we don't have to see each other much, but she can still stay here. It's true, she doesn't respect me. She never has, maybe until I broke up her affair. I'm trying to Man Up as much as I can!

Affaircare - That first paragraph is pretty accurate of our situation. I still don't think she fully understands what separation means. She can't put the kids to bed every night. She can't be with them every day of the week. I think that will grind on her. Her new apartment has no furniture and she said the kids can sleep in sleeping bags (WTF?). For how long? Clearly she has not thought this through at all...

On the dating thing, while it appeals to me on a certain level, mentally I am not there yet and I would give myself like six months to get my head on straight before I started dating and yes I am athletic, attractive, interesting, successful and all that stuff and my wife is 50, employable but not employed. Her odds of finding someone are about nil... I am a year younger than her and I can get women in their 30s still, no problem. She is looking at 50 year old men in her future, because younger men are not looking for 50 year old women, they are looking for women way younger than them...

MEM11363

MNG,
The bit about needing 6 months to clear your head makes total sense. And in fact it shows a high degree of love for your W. But remember our goal here is to obtain an optimal result. So far better to project this message:
- As soon as you move out - my confidence that YOU actually are committed to this marriage plummets
- Given that I am going to being dating and start seeing what my other options are

Actually I like this tactic better than what I mentioned in my earlier post. You can ignore the HIGHLY volatile topic of what she "plans" to do in terms of extramarital sex. Ignore it. Just focus on "commitment". You make the statement that you "feel it signifies a serious lack of commitment" and then no matter what her rebuttal you just "shrug". This is body language for - I don't care if you disagree - or - it doesn't matter as I am going to do what I said.

I have good news for you. I will be shocked if you wife can tolerate 30 days of this. If you can hang for 30 days - good chance (better than 50-50) she comes to her senses.

AFEH

MNG. Being fifty years old is a difficult time for some. It’s a time when we can predict the future from the past and if we don’t like that future we look to change it. I think that’s what your wife is doing, looking to change her future. But like many spouses instead of ending the marriage with a divorce she chose cheating as her way of getting her new future.

But is the grass really greener on the other side of the hill? She wont know until she experiences it will she? So she is trying to keep your side of the hill open to her while she tries out the other side. That’s why you let her go so she can discover it for herself. But you don’t let her stay on your side of the hill in as much as you can do it. It is a case of withholding your love for her and whatever services you provide for her to get her onto the other side of the hill as quickly as you are able to. That drops them in the deep end quickly rather than let them make a slow transition to their new life by using and abusing you.

Maybe when she’s living her new life MNG she will discover that the other side of the hill is barren and the green grass simply does not exist. I know this stuff MNG. After 40 years I’m 12 months separated from my wife. She has discovered that the green grass she thought was there just doesn’t exist.

Bob

MEM11363

Bob,
Well said.