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Old 02-26-2011, 02:49 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Default Re: be honest boys...

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Most of it.. but that does not mean you can't recognize that. It's also conscious. Complicated. Gotta go watch the kids outside, but I will think on how to answer that one a little better, I just kinda gave you a quick and crappy answer there, and I know it... sorry, hard to word
My point is that attraction has a primal element to it.

To ignore those elements puts you at risk for devaluing it and losing it.

I believe a large majority of the couples that are willing to work and work and work until they "make it" have that primal element intact.

Those that don't?

I'll bet you can guess the outcome.
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Old 02-26-2011, 02:50 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Pretty much what happened in the scenario I gave... long story short... I am a giver, can't stop myself. I know that, I know I often look like a doormat, but hey, it's what make me happy. That said, I know I am not likely to get equal giving, i am fine with that BUT I am not invisible either.
Maybe it's just me, but it sounds like what you would ideally like is something close to this: "If I notice your neck is hurting and I make the effort to rub it, then YOU notice that MY neck is hurting and make the effort to rub it" because it sounds like you perceive that as "fair." I'm going to say something that may sound REALLY harsh, and I want to say before hand that I mean it in the way that means "Think for a minute and see if this is possible." Is it possible that rather than believing you are valuable and worthy of love because you ARE a treasure...that you think you have to "earn" love? For example, do you earn his attention by "giving" to him and then when he doesn't "give" to you, think that he doesn't "love" you? Do you think that maybe it's sort of a little like a scoresheet in your head that says "Hey I've tallied enough points now that I've earned some love by being good, and you're not loving me!"

If that is maybe the case, you should know that I noticed or recognized it because I used to be that way myself! In fact, to this day that's one of my personal weaknesses--giving to someone with the hope/expectation of earning their love. It's a hard struggle, but I would suggest one thing. Rather than getting your value from earning love by doing "nice things"...get your value from within YOU for being the rare and precious person you are.

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Fast forward through the "honeymoon" phase when it was all peaches and cream.... My needs were invisible to the point where I was walking around with a pinched nerve in the neck waiting for a rub (I would do that the second he did a neck crack) then went to "gee my neck is killing me, a good massage would be great" to finally "OK, I will ask, can I have a massage here" then MAYBE get it. OK fine, but then when it goes to I ask (for nothing big) put on paper pretty specific instructions as to what he might do or say in response to things from me (cuz ya, he was THAT slow no joke)
Actually this example is a pretty good example of what I was talking about. In his head it probably goes something like this. He would go to work all day and his neck would be a little sore so he'd crack it. You'd jump over and rub his neck, and he'd think, "Wow, cool. That feels good. Thanks" The end. He may or may not have needed the rub--may or may not have wanted the rub. But you did it and he thought "Yay, nice." The problem is that a teeny portion of you was giving him the neck rub so he would notice YOUR pinched nerve and hoping it would make him think, "Oh hey I wonder about her neck...." but that's not where his head went.

Next, you would say something like "Gee my neck is killing me; a massage would be great" and he would think "Boy I agree with you. When your neck hurts a massage really does help." Did you notice though that you didn't come right out and tell him what you thought or felt--nor did you ask right out loud for what you wanted? You hoped/expected him to "figure it out" or I suspect possibly thought "I've earned his attention by giving him attention so many times, and he's not giving me what I earned!"

By then you've already built up some resentment over the fact that you're not getting what you earned, and you finally say in some exasperation: "OK, I will ask, can I have a massage here?" Now in his head this is the first time you've asked, and he may be thinking "Well gee I just got home from work and I'm kind of tired at the moment. Can I do it later?" but in your head you are already not getting what you have earned, and you're already kind of peeved! So he doesn't really have the right to say 'no'--I mean what if you asked "Can I have a massage here?" and he just outright said "no"? Would that be allowed? Because for me, when I was trying to earn love I thought of it as something that was OWED to me. I had already put in the work to earn it, and not giving it to me was not an option! But all of that was in my head and my hubby had no idea all that was going on in my head! When I rubbed his shoulders he accepted it as it was. When I mentioned the thing about massages feeling good, he agreed. When I finally got around to asking, he is an equal partner in the marriage and has the right to say "no" but by then I already had decided I had earned it!!

So long story short, #1 consider the concept of trying to earn love from another person rather than loving you from within yourself because you're valuable. And #2 consider just asking right out in a respectful request, giving your spouse the freedom to say "no". If he does say "no" ask what he would be willing to do and then give him a chance to tell you!
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Old 02-26-2011, 03:32 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Default Re: be honest boys...

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Originally Posted by Conrad View Post
My point is that attraction has a primal element to it.

To ignore those elements puts you at risk for devaluing it and losing it.

I believe a large majority of the couples that are willing to work and work and work until they "make it" have that primal element intact.

Those that don't?

I'll bet you can guess the outcome.
My problem at the moment stems from there being an attraction there, but does not seem to be any earthly way of making it work (way beyond the issues discussed here). I think I go back at times simply because there is that attraction and you get in your head that it HAS to be able to work. That subconscious thing is messing me up so ya, I know it's there, but I almost resent it right now.
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Old 02-26-2011, 03:39 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Default Re: be honest boys...

Affaircare, I would agree with you if I let my emotions take off at the fact that he missed the clues but I didn't. I admitted to him I really would have liked if he noticed and acted, but since he didn't (and the neck thing is reoccurring) I made a note of saying, "hey, can you give the massage now, I really needed, and put in that memory back of yours that NEXT time you see me hurting, I would REALLY like it if you rubbed it" (believe it or not that is about how it went down, though I may have come off as more dissappointed that he missed it the first time) and made a few reminders before I gave up on him EVER getting it. But after that kind of encounter, then YA when he continued to miss the same thing, I don't think it's unfair of me to feel a little hurt.

On the other stuff, ya, you are right to a point, and yes I fall into that to a point, and should communication occur, I will cop to that to the person it counts to and try to find out from him, if that is what he was feeling or thinking (can just ask what were you thinking cause all I will get is "I dunno" but if I get options I MIGHT get "THAT'S IT!"... further frustration LOL)

Anyway, thanks for the insight, I will have to think about it more how I fit into it, and think about what adjustments I can make.
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Old 02-26-2011, 03:44 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Default Re: be honest boys...

While there is this open discussion another question...

When it comes to the need to fix things, should the option be there that is....

OK... I want to fix certain things because if they aren't fixed they will always come back up, often worse than they started...

That said... he has no need for that, can just say, "OK that sucked, but I got my yelling out, now I can just forget it and get over it"

That leaves, I need to fix it, he can just forget it (even the big stuff) Now, how do I say "Good I am sooooo glad you can do that, but no matter how I try, I can't, so do you think you can sit with me and maybe have some input into fixing not just forgetting, since that is what I need to get past it?"

Not just saying my needs first, but seriously, sometimes a need is a need and if you don't work with it, things will just get ugly. What is OK to ask for? I mean you HAVE to be able to ask for something without feeling like you are demanding too much right? or is the whole trying to fix it a no go, I should just give up and find a way to figure it out on my own with no input from him? Real question BTW.
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Old 02-26-2011, 04:56 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Default Re: be honest boys...

Woodstock,

Have you been to counseling?
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:20 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Default Re: be honest boys...

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Woodstock,

Have you been to counseling?

Not since I was 17 unless you count Dr Best friend LMAO... COuples counseling? Suggested, shot down on the spot
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:16 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Hey now, don't discount best friend counseling, it's free and there 24/7 and has your best interests at heart, always.

To answer your latest text. Re-view my text typed in another thread. You have to get to the dead point so that you can truly move on or you are accepting that this is where you do want to be, for whatever reason.
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:19 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Also, on a side note, it disgusts me that you and Conrad are getting along (disgust is a little too extreme...amuse with slight laughter and nausea would be a better word). Him, Bob & BigBadWolf are my natural adversaries. They are like the men hiding in the bushes waiting to sacrifice you for their manly needs at any point in time and for whatever reason they deem manly enough so that they can move on to their manly joys albeit golf'ing, moaning about unfit women, motorcycling or business dealing.
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:55 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I ask straight up if they think I am being a doormat, but then how many men are going to ask you to do less for them HAHA.
Uhm... guilty. My gal likes doing stuff for me and I noticed a shift in my behavior. Taking them for granted. Immediately stopped doing that and asked her to do a bit less for me, or else I might not appreciate it in the long term. She found it weird, but complied.
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:23 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Also, on a side note, it disgusts me that you and Conrad are getting along (disgust is a little too extreme...amuse with slight laughter and nausea would be a better word). Him, Bob & BigBadWolf are my natural adversaries. They are like the men hiding in the bushes waiting to sacrifice you for their manly needs at any point in time and for whatever reason they deem manly enough so that they can move on to their manly joys albeit golf'ing, moaning about unfit women, motorcycling or business dealing.
Well hell, this is like the first interaction, you know me, just give it time LMAO Haven't seen all that yet, so cut me some slack, hasn't been too bad here (granted I am on my best behaviour in the enemy's lounge HAHA)
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:24 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Hey now, don't discount best friend counseling, it's free and there 24/7 and has your best interests at heart, always.

To answer your latest text. Re-view my text typed in another thread. You have to get to the dead point so that you can truly move on or you are accepting that this is where you do want to be, for whatever reason.
Ya ya ya, of course my head is fully aware of such things HAHA

Gotta chat this one out with ya... not doing specifics here, cause like I said, there is nothing to really say at the moment so it would make no sense.... wait, it will NEVER make sense HAAAAA
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:56 PM   #73 (permalink)
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You could be going to work and see a bag full of garbage there and are supposed to know you need to take it out. Every day you don't do it, it moves a bit closer to the door and all you think is: "Hmmm, lot of trash we have." and then one day she snaps.
Okay....I really need to ask this question.

If you are both adults living in the same house why does someone have to ask you to take out the rubbish? When you are putting something in the bin and you notice the lid won't close properly because the bin is full or you just notice the bin is getting close to full, why not just empty the bin then? Why do you have to wait for instruction from someone?

Now to me,"that" seems weird.

In our home...if you notice it needs emptying - you empty it, if you notice it needs replacing - you replace it...whoever "you" are.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:23 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Woody, nah, Conrad is good people with so many great things to add and say, so are the others but like most things you have to learn where it's coming from before you place stock in it.

We'll talk tomorrow. A little chest cold and Nyquil apparently doesn't do much to put me down for the night.
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Old 02-27-2011, 07:05 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Okay....I really need to ask this question.

If you are both adults living in the same house why does someone have to ask you to take out the rubbish? When you are putting something in the bin and you notice the lid won't close properly because the bin is full or you just notice the bin is getting close to full, why not just empty the bin then? Why do you have to wait for instruction from someone?

Now to me,"that" seems weird.

In our home...if you notice it needs emptying - you empty it, if you notice it needs replacing - you replace it...whoever "you" are.
Oooh crap. Seems that nobody got that that was the part the comedian was saying. Only the last paragraph was mine. Said before that it was a hack translation to English. He was just exaggerating. All he meant to say is that putting a bag out doesn't make a man explicitly think he has to put it in the garbage container, especially if he is late. To be honest, growing up, my mom use to do that, but in her case it was clear. Anyone going outside will take the bag and dump it in the container. Worked like a charm.

So, yes, if I'd see one, I'd put it outside.
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