In my experience what I "give" him in sex I process in two ways. There is the idea that he has made ME feel a certain way and I want to return the favor, make it extra god for him. The other way is that a good part of my own sexual turn on is the ability to make is leg wag like a dog and force HIM (usually very quiet) to stick a pillow over HIS face to muffle the sound. That second is more for my benefit than his actually as I LOVE that kind of turn on.
I don't have much experience with low sex drive, as for me, sex feels good and if you have an itch, scratch it (that works in the masturbation discussion just as well). I will admit that there are times when it is not that I am interested, it is that I am torn between providing my own pleasure vs not really wanting to provide for his (which usually ends up me getting mine, and in turn him getting his, but like I said, I have NO hang ups with sex and can almost ALWAYS enjoy it) There are also time when sure, I am not entirely in the mood or maybe angry or hurt, but I usually will still give him his, simply because I know what security it offers him, and if I am craving my own security I get in my head that if I give it to him, he will return the favor (HAHA ya, silly me)
Now, get your cortizone ready, because YES there are actually times when exhaustion or sickness or just plain mental state will not allow me to get in the mood. Very few and far between moments, but they exist. Had a wisdom tooth issue that would come and go for years that just physically did not allow me to give a certain thing in bed, will let you guess what. There are a few days a month where he can say "I don't care about the mess, lets do it anyway" and runs in with a towel and I am like "sorry no, I don't want to gross myself out during sex you dolt!" but if he bugs enough, like with a child, sometimes there is that thought of "Dammit I really need to sleep or get something done, will a quickie shut him up?" But I try not to voice that one, unless a bit of sarcastic humor will be taken well and not turn him limp. Yes there are times when a man can laugh at that comment.
So essentially, I do not get a woman who won't put out. Unless the man is an undeniable bastard/jerk/a-hole, why would you NOT want to give him what he needs to feel loved and secure, or just plain happy? I don't understand a person not being able to get a sense of satisfaction for themself, simply by being the one to put a smile on the other's face.
Maybe that's why sex has never been the problem in any of my relationships. at least not lasting (once... puppy.. replacement...and yes I still hate that stoopid dog) but was able to get back 80% of what the stupid mutt took. The last 20% has to do with dog hair, dog stink, dirty bed sheets and dammit, that WILL kill the mood for me! (it's GROSS boys, if you have a dog and MUST have him in your bed when she is not... make sure he is NOT in the bed when she IS and for god's sake! Learn to change the sheets before she IS in the bed! Stinky dog is NOT a turn on cologne!!
My experience has been as follows. We meet and date for about a year. During this time W is very active, into trying all sorts of things and very affectionate. Since this is what I need I get hooked. W moves in and things are still good. Get married and have 2 kids. By the time my second child was born. Everything already dried up. Nice guy emerges and spends the next 8 years trying to get back what we had to no avail. If it were left up to her the sex definitely would have stopped. I made it clear that I would not put up with that. During this time is was simply her tolerating it, also several times tried to stop oral as well, but i complained also so it happened but rarely. Brings us to present day. Things started to dry up even more, no affection, no kisses (never refused, but no effort) W began hanging out with friends more and as I tried to get closer it would push her away more. So now I am manning up, I'll be quite honest now that my head is starting to clear I am uncertain where we stand. I've been doing for myself and taking the lead on things. W says she loves me, but I don't feel the same enthusiasm anymore towards the relationship. Could be bitter, but also think it is because that for 8+ years I didn't have what need. Not rushing to any judgement here as I see how things play out.
We've never had a problem with kissing, but I have gotten the "fine, lets get it over with" plenty of times. To me this is different from a quickie. In a quickie there is desire both ways, just not a lot of time.
My problem with all of her excuses for "not tonight" or "hurry up" were that she would spend 2-3 hours watching TV or surfing FB, yet the second sex was brought up she would be too tired.
The last time she did this was right before my manning up started. I haven't let her get away with it since. Good sex or no sex.
We were pretty good in taking care of the kids when they were babies. We have slightly different sleep schedules anyway, so she would go to bed at 9-10 and I would take care of any issues before 2am. After that it was her turn for feedings or if they woke.
With our second child I definately was the one with the sleep issue. He would wake up about midnight every night and be wide awake for an hour or more. Most nights before he turned 1 ended up with us sleeping in the recliner all night. I always say I barely made it through that.
Sis,
Preemies + a partner who is not helping you sleep, gets hacked when you sleep elsewhere and expects a lot of sex is a recipe for divorce. Your situation is not what I was referring to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sisters359
Honestly, there are times in life when a woman is too tired and/or has given so much of herself that she just wants her body for herself. I felt this way when my children were infants--and I've heard others say the same. All of us were breastfeeding. And sometimes (with preemies, for example), the "newborn stage" last MONTHS. It is sooooo exhausting. So, a guy keeps pushing for sex after the magic "medical" 6 weeks is up (the 6 weeks the doc says to wait to have sex after giving birth). So here you are, totally sleep deprived and no end to this in sight--no more than 40 minutes of sleep at a shot, night after night. I think this may be the time that the "turn off" begins to happen. And h pretty much never stirred, never woke up when the baby cried--he could sleep through a tornado (literally, he did once; I had to wake him to get to safety).
I had never had sleep issues until having babies and, my god, is it horrible. Sleep deprivation is a form of torture, after all. But I was so resentful that my h would want to take 1 minute of my precious sleep even after I had explained it. Maybe it was just my age (31 at the time) or the fact that I had preemies. But frankly, it seemed downright cruel to me.
I'd encourage anyone who doesn't get that to start setting an alarm to wake you after 40 minutes, get up for 40, go back to bed for 40, and repeat--for 3 months. See what you feel like. I'm not exaggerating, either. Trust me, I was watching that damn clock every second, trying to see SOME progress in my baby learning to go longer without sleep. For the record, I do NOT watch a clock, ever, when sleeping anymore. Nothing is MORE likely to interfere with my sleep and if I don't know how little I'm getting, it does not seem to bother me as much--but then, we're talking about a difference somewhere between 7.5 to 9 hours now, so maybe it really doesn't matter.
Maybe the resentment from those very difficult weeks doesn't totally go away--what the woman perceives as sheer selfishness on his part. So, the next time she is *not* interested, and he pushes or acts all put out (when sex has otherwise gotten back to normal), it just rings that bell in her--so the resentment grows a bit--and then, the next time. In other words, if he reacts negatively to her occasional refusals, it adds to her resentment which means the refusals will slowly become more frequent. Remember, too, that she may be having sex when she really does not feel like it--again, the infant/small child stage, when women are likely to be losing a LOT of sleep. (I didn't get a full night of uninterrupted sleep more than 1-2 times a week until each of my kids reached 4--that is a lot of nights of poor sleep.) So, between never getting enough sleep, having sex when you really just want to sleep, having your partner act like a spoiled brat about it rather than doing something to help (even though you've asked, b/c remember, he "has to get up and go to work. . .")
I instituted "mom's night o'sleep" with my 2nd child in an attempt to forestall the cycle. I was supposed to sleep in a different room with a loud fan on, 1x/week or every 10 days. My h complained so much about his poor sleep those occasional nights that I gave up. And yep, the cycle repeated itself. Yes, my age and the fact that both our kids were teeny preemies who had extremely high needs were, perhaps, unusual. But, moms lose a LOT of sleep when kids are small. So, please do not write off the "too tired" part--at least if there is a small child in the house. Helping her GET good sleep on a regular basis would be a much better plan.
I had no doubt in my mind that I'd choose sleep over sex, that's how sleep-deprived I was. And again, please don't judge unless you've experienced serious sleep deprivation, or think I didn't love sex. Yes, I did--but sleep became a lot more important. And I'm pretty sure my resentment started growing then. That wasn't the only issue, of course, but it sure as hell didn't HELP anything!
I also have to wonder if kids are nature's way of telling a woman, "it is time to move on." Contrary to popular belief, women's best bet in passing on her genetic material wasn't in finding a single man to "provide" for her and the kids (in the pre-historic world, it took a group). It was in making sure she bore children with a diversity of genetic structures so that some, at least, would survive. So maybe the post-child sex decline meant the caveman moved on and cave woman moved on, too, when she was ready to breed again (ie, when her libido kicked in again). Just a thought.
SS,
The first 15 years of our marriage were good because we had great alignment on time and money and good alignment sexually.
I had no idea what a fitness test was but my innate ability to manage conflict kept me from turning into a bully or a eunuch. We did have a lot of conflict about stupid things during that period. But in between the conflict we had a great time together.
In the last 5-6 years we have gotten better at using playful friction to amplify the marriage, the passion and the fun. And I have gotten much, much better at seeing fitness tests as an opportunity to show strength, self control, problem solving skills and humor.
I do learn a lot here which is part of the reason for my presence. And I hope to sometimes be helpful. I am keenly aware that I can be tiresome at times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seeking sanity
Two thoughts:
1. Sisters describes the children death knell - exhaustion, changing of priorities... For me it was I moved into provider role after being a pretty useless provider in our early years, she moved into the mother role. That didn't help things.
But probably the bigger thing is just lack of self-awareness. Prior to our separations (that have ended up being a bit of reset button) I just figured things would get better when the kids got older. I was just stupid and uninformed about the dynamic between men/women. We were also enmeshed and codependent, which sucks away passion. I'd accept "forever" and so took what I could get because some sex was better than no sex.
It wasn't until I was dating and had actually learn about women, that I adopted a firm position of not being willing to be controlled by sex. Turns out that is a better life strategy. Go figure.
Not sure if that answers things.
2. I don't really know your back story. You're here and very wise and respected. But why are you here? Were you always in control of yourself and relationships, or did something catalyze that?
Mem, I know it wasn't specifically what you meant--but, the connection is, lots of men are very insensitive during this stage and the seeds of resentment are planted. They do not understand that the sleep deprivation is not only a libido-killer, but also, sleep really IS a higher imperative than sex when there is such sleep deprivation. So many of the stories about the decline of sex begin with this, "then came the kids, and sex stopped. . ." Clearly couples don't navigate this well. I think it is a much bigger part of the story than many realize.
Pattern: sex declines b/c of this stage. Men take it personally and try to "earn back" sex. Guy doing nice things thinks he should get sex; sleep-deprived wife is thinking, "omg, I'm losing sleep!!" Spiral accelerates. By the time she is getting better sleep, she is both resentful and much less attracted; he's confused and desperate--so more desperate, "sex-earning behavior." That makes him LESS attractive . . .
My initial post is not a "ding" on women - even those who do this. At is a "ding" on two people who are sending each other some VERY scary messages.
I think it is perfectly fine to say "I am dead tired" when it is true. And to add "I know it has been a while - but a quickie is probably best tonight"
I am instead talking about a situation where your partner has several hours a day of discretionary time, and yet when it comes to sex they want to "get it over with". And/or they don't want to kiss you.
I just think when that pattern BEGINS the person hearing that message needs to address it constructively or they will end up sexless. Because otherwise the subtext is:
Person 1: I really don't like sexual intimacy with you
Person 2: I need to come, so I will just rub myself around you / inside you - even if you don't like it. And I will pretend that you really are ok with that
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodstock
In my experience what I "give" him in sex I process in two ways. There is the idea that he has made ME feel a certain way and I want to return the favor, make it extra god for him. The other way is that a good part of my own sexual turn on is the ability to make is leg wag like a dog and force HIM (usually very quiet) to stick a pillow over HIS face to muffle the sound. That second is more for my benefit than his actually as I LOVE that kind of turn on.
I don't have much experience with low sex drive, as for me, sex feels good and if you have an itch, scratch it (that works in the masturbation discussion just as well). I will admit that there are times when it is not that I am interested, it is that I am torn between providing my own pleasure vs not really wanting to provide for his (which usually ends up me getting mine, and in turn him getting his, but like I said, I have NO hang ups with sex and can almost ALWAYS enjoy it) There are also time when sure, I am not entirely in the mood or maybe angry or hurt, but I usually will still give him his, simply because I know what security it offers him, and if I am craving my own security I get in my head that if I give it to him, he will return the favor (HAHA ya, silly me)
Now, get your cortizone ready, because YES there are actually times when exhaustion or sickness or just plain mental state will not allow me to get in the mood. Very few and far between moments, but they exist. Had a wisdom tooth issue that would come and go for years that just physically did not allow me to give a certain thing in bed, will let you guess what. There are a few days a month where he can say "I don't care about the mess, lets do it anyway" and runs in with a towel and I am like "sorry no, I don't want to gross myself out during sex you dolt!" but if he bugs enough, like with a child, sometimes there is that thought of "Dammit I really need to sleep or get something done, will a quickie shut him up?" But I try not to voice that one, unless a bit of sarcastic humor will be taken well and not turn him limp. Yes there are times when a man can laugh at that comment.
So essentially, I do not get a woman who won't put out. Unless the man is an undeniable bastard/jerk/a-hole, why would you NOT want to give him what he needs to feel loved and secure, or just plain happy? I don't understand a person not being able to get a sense of satisfaction for themself, simply by being the one to put a smile on the other's face.
Maybe that's why sex has never been the problem in any of my relationships. at least not lasting (once... puppy.. replacement...and yes I still hate that stoopid dog) but was able to get back 80% of what the stupid mutt took. The last 20% has to do with dog hair, dog stink, dirty bed sheets and dammit, that WILL kill the mood for me! (it's GROSS boys, if you have a dog and MUST have him in your bed when she is not... make sure he is NOT in the bed when she IS and for god's sake! Learn to change the sheets before she IS in the bed! Stinky dog is NOT a turn on cologne!!
MEM.. Ya, I don't understand people getting to that all! Most likely because I like sex because it is FUN, not just because I need it (emotionally I can get everything I do need from other things). Also, I am the type that will more often think of the other first and therefore will give sex when i know he needs it.
I do know people who won't give it, or will "quickie" the fun away and no matter how much they explain it, or what the say about it, they come off sounding both selfish, and completely unaware of their own bodies with serious issues about sex (not to mention how much flippin fun it can be!!!) When women have told me they never give it up to their husbands then laugh or giggle about it, my first reaction is to smack them upside the head LOL THEN maybe ask if they self serve. More often than not, they say no, then I just figure... well damn, no wonder, you have yet to figure out how to pleasure yourself, so then how can you teach your man to do it... Sex is supposed to be FUN!!!! You can have NO sex drive AT all, but if you have a FUN drive... well then you can have sex and enjoy it!!!!!!!!!! Why would you want to cut short your fun time? I don't get it
Subtract the "jerky" guys - and I will give you my take on what happens to the guys who are just not good at conflict.
Babies come. Not preemies - babies. Sleep schedule is disrupted. H helps. Mom is tired for a few months and then schedules begin to resume. Except for one big change, and that is Mom has less desire (hormones?) AND compounding that, she is busier with the baby. So certain things need to get subtracted from the schedule. Hey - sex isn't that big a deal - since I am not feeling that much desire. Lets cut that out - saves 3-5 hours a week. Not saying this is conscious.
In the meantime this young, high drive guy is slowly losing his mind. And he has no idea what to do. He isn't good at conflict and she just shuts him down when he brings it up. And that "shut down" actually effects HER feelings for him as much or more than his for her. Because when he lets that happen, the message basically is that it is ok for her to largely ignore his number one need. BTW - sex might not normally be his highest need, but deprived of it - it becomes number 1.
That pattern seems very common from what I read. Maybe I am wrong but the "average" guy is not likely to say "I will make sure you get enough sleep so you aren't sleep deprived. I get that your drive is low, so I need you to do two things:
- Relax enough to LET me get you in the mood when you start out in neutral AND
- Teach me how to get you in the mood when you start out in neutral
As for sleep - when you are deprived it IS your number one priority and it should be. Emotionally - for a guy - especially a young guy - sex is the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sisters359
Mem, I know it wasn't specifically what you meant--but, the connection is, lots of men are very insensitive during this stage and the seeds of resentment are planted. They do not understand that the sleep deprivation is not only a libido-killer, but also, sleep really IS a higher imperative than sex when there is such sleep deprivation. So many of the stories about the decline of sex begin with this, "then came the kids, and sex stopped. . ." Clearly couples don't navigate this well. I think it is a much bigger part of the story than many realize.
Pattern: sex declines b/c of this stage. Men take it personally and try to "earn back" sex. Guy doing nice things thinks he should get sex; sleep-deprived wife is thinking, "omg, I'm losing sleep!!" Spiral accelerates. By the time she is getting better sleep, she is both resentful and much less attracted; he's confused and desperate--so more desperate, "sex-earning behavior." That makes him LESS attractive . . .
I have to agree with your assesment. I was in no way jerky. I was very supportive of my W at the time. I did never pressure her during those times. I saw how much work it was and was very sympathetic. When things began to normalize nothing returned as before. I will take most of the blame for not asking for my needs in a direct way. Instead I used passive agressive comments and what I thought was good behavior to support her, which I now know is a death spirial. The question now is has the death already occurred. I will have to wait until I am where I want to be and then evaluate the situation. I will say one of my biggest frustrations is with my W downplaying my needs and just laughing it off cause all of her friends say the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEM11363
Sis,
The post below sounds unbalanced to me.
Subtract the "jerky" guys - and I will give you my take on what happens to the guys who are just not good at conflict.
Babies come. Not preemies - babies. Sleep schedule is disrupted. H helps. Mom is tired for a few months and then schedules begin to resume. Except for one big change, and that is Mom has less desire (hormones?) AND compounding that, she is busier with the baby. So certain things need to get subtracted from the schedule. Hey - sex isn't that big a deal - since I am not feeling that much desire. Lets cut that out - saves 3-5 hours a week. Not saying this is conscious.
In the meantime this young, high drive guy is slowly losing his mind. And he has no idea what to do. He isn't good at conflict and she just shuts him down when he brings it up. And that "shut down" actually effects HER feelings for him as much or more than his for her. Because when he lets that happen, the message basically is that it is ok for her to largely ignore his number one need. BTW - sex might not normally be his highest need, but deprived of it - it becomes number 1.
That pattern seems very common from what I read. Maybe I am wrong but the "average" guy is not likely to say "I will make sure you get enough sleep so you aren't sleep deprived. I get that your drive is low, so I need you to do two things:
- Relax enough to LET me get you in the mood when you start out in neutral AND
- Teach me how to get you in the mood when you start out in neutral
As for sleep - when you are deprived it IS your number one priority and it should be. Emotionally - for a guy - especially a young guy - sex is the same.
As if.....Well you gotta hand it to the ladies to be completely indifferent of the stresses a new father is enduring. Someone should put that one in rule book.
I agree that most people--not just men--aren't prepared by life experience to see the need to say these kinds of things.
Quote:
That pattern seems very common from what I read. Maybe I am wrong but the "average" guy is not likely to say "I will make sure you get enough sleep so you aren't sleep deprived. I get that your drive is low, so I need you to do two things:
- Relax enough to LET me get you in the mood when you start out in neutral AND
- Teach me how to get you in the mood when you start out in neutral
If the first few months don't go well, she isn't in neutral--I guess that's what I'm adding/pointing out. More common than one might think, I suspect, from what I hear, too.
Bill,
How does your W treat you "outside" the bedroom? Does she treat you with respect or speak to you like you are a "sitcom" husband? Sitcom husbands get treated like they are not very smart or capable and because they project a totally "beta" posture there isn't what I call the "healthy fear" that creates balance in a marriage. And I do NOT mean physical fear.
My W knows I am committed. And stable. And and and. She ALSO knows that when I insert some edge in my voice and ask her "Why would you think THAT is ok"? I fully expect either a very solid answer OR a sincere apology. And she knows - based on past experience that it is SO hard to "avoid" doing one or the other that she responds to that question in a fair manner.
But then I am not inclined to get "angry/sullen" as that is just punishing myself for her bad behavior. I just become less accommodating.
Read my post on the "thermostat" and see what you think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill2011
Mem,
I have to agree with your assesment. I was in no way jerky. I was very supportive of my W at the time. I did never pressure her during those times. I saw how much work it was and was very sympathetic. When things began to normalize nothing returned as before. I will take most of the blame for not asking for my needs in a direct way. Instead I used passive agressive comments and what I thought was good behavior to support her, which I now know is a death spirial. The question now is has the death already occurred. I will have to wait until I am where I want to be and then evaluate the situation. I will say one of my biggest frustrations is with my W downplaying my needs and just laughing it off cause all of her friends say the same.
Re: Death spiral 
