This has nothing to do with my other thread. Just curious about something.
I have read quite a few posts here by men whose sexual relationships have become very bad. I noticed that a fair number say that for a long time their W's have either:
- Refused to "kiss" them sexually and/or
- Tell them - lets hurry up, or lets hurry and get this over with
I am just curious, how common is that type behavior? I only ask because there is no way I would have been willing to continue a sexual relationship with my W had she done EITHER of those things. What I mean is that I would have forced a resolution. Either we get to the point where she WANTS me to kiss her and WANTS sex to be a nice, lengthy experience or we just don't have sex anymore.
BTW - the occasional quickie is fine. Female contribution to this post is welcome. I will however have a highly allergic reaction to anyone who says that maybe some of these women are too busy/too tired to spend 30 minutes to an hour having sex a few times a week. This isn't about fatigue. This is about:
- Not really liking the experience and wanting to make it quick as possible
- Wanting your partner to know you don't really like it or
- Wanting your partner to know you really don't care about how they feel
I read a lot of stuff about "sexually degrading" things that men do to their female partners. And as a man I cringe when I read them. That said I would consider it sexually degrading to ME, if my W were to do either of the things described above.
But hey - I also blame any male who tolerates this. Because it sure sounds like this is more of a "jerking off into your partner" than connecting with them type thing.
You frightened me, I thought you were literally being fuuuuked to death. You're OK? Good. I won't make any jokes, just glad you neural circuitry is still working well enough to have cogent thought. Posted via Mobile Device
Luckily I've never experienced this. We've been pretty compatible up until the last year or so (about 20 years together total). And at this point - for whatever reason - I've become the "lower drive" spouse while her drive has increased.
Now - about 10 years ago she went through a phase where she suddenly became "unsure" about giving BJs. May have just been a test. Don't remember it too well, but I don't think it lasted longer than a couple of weeks.
I agree it's not about connecting at all. However what are these men doing to connect with their wives? If a woman feels so unconnected and off put by sex that she is saying those things, she is obviously not feeling any sexual attraction. And you are right MEM men should not put up with it.
It is doormat behaviour which women do not find attractive and which I guess helps repeat the cycle and makes her less attracted to her man.
I find some of these men (not all) when I read about them have been very selfish in many ways, not paying attention to their wives needs, and then wonder how it gets to that. They focus on trying to force their wives to change rather then change themselves. They also act like a door mat in other ways, allowing her to belittle them. This is not sexy.
Women should not belittle men, they don't feel like real men and you don't find them attractive, and men shouldn't allow it to happen.
The "test" of my endurance ended 10 minutes ago. Apparently I "passed". She is back to normal - very loving. Somehow she has concluded "she" was part of the problem. Deep sigh of relief.
She gave me the choice to "opt out" tonight. I did not take it.
I told her the last 5 days have been incredibly educational.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine602
You frightened me, I thought you were literally being fuuuuked to death. You're OK? Good. I won't make any jokes, just glad you neural circuitry is still working well enough to have cogent thought. Posted via Mobile Device
Honestly, there are times in life when a woman is too tired and/or has given so much of herself that she just wants her body for herself. I felt this way when my children were infants--and I've heard others say the same. All of us were breastfeeding. And sometimes (with preemies, for example), the "newborn stage" last MONTHS. It is sooooo exhausting. So, a guy keeps pushing for sex after the magic "medical" 6 weeks is up (the 6 weeks the doc says to wait to have sex after giving birth). So here you are, totally sleep deprived and no end to this in sight--no more than 40 minutes of sleep at a shot, night after night. I think this may be the time that the "turn off" begins to happen. And h pretty much never stirred, never woke up when the baby cried--he could sleep through a tornado (literally, he did once; I had to wake him to get to safety).
I had never had sleep issues until having babies and, my god, is it horrible. Sleep deprivation is a form of torture, after all. But I was so resentful that my h would want to take 1 minute of my precious sleep even after I had explained it. Maybe it was just my age (31 at the time) or the fact that I had preemies. But frankly, it seemed downright cruel to me.
I'd encourage anyone who doesn't get that to start setting an alarm to wake you after 40 minutes, get up for 40, go back to bed for 40, and repeat--for 3 months. See what you feel like. I'm not exaggerating, either. Trust me, I was watching that damn clock every second, trying to see SOME progress in my baby learning to go longer without sleep. For the record, I do NOT watch a clock, ever, when sleeping anymore. Nothing is MORE likely to interfere with my sleep and if I don't know how little I'm getting, it does not seem to bother me as much--but then, we're talking about a difference somewhere between 7.5 to 9 hours now, so maybe it really doesn't matter.
Maybe the resentment from those very difficult weeks doesn't totally go away--what the woman perceives as sheer selfishness on his part. So, the next time she is *not* interested, and he pushes or acts all put out (when sex has otherwise gotten back to normal), it just rings that bell in her--so the resentment grows a bit--and then, the next time. In other words, if he reacts negatively to her occasional refusals, it adds to her resentment which means the refusals will slowly become more frequent. Remember, too, that she may be having sex when she really does not feel like it--again, the infant/small child stage, when women are likely to be losing a LOT of sleep. (I didn't get a full night of uninterrupted sleep more than 1-2 times a week until each of my kids reached 4--that is a lot of nights of poor sleep.) So, between never getting enough sleep, having sex when you really just want to sleep, having your partner act like a spoiled brat about it rather than doing something to help (even though you've asked, b/c remember, he "has to get up and go to work. . .")
I instituted "mom's night o'sleep" with my 2nd child in an attempt to forestall the cycle. I was supposed to sleep in a different room with a loud fan on, 1x/week or every 10 days. My h complained so much about his poor sleep those occasional nights that I gave up. And yep, the cycle repeated itself. Yes, my age and the fact that both our kids were teeny preemies who had extremely high needs were, perhaps, unusual. But, moms lose a LOT of sleep when kids are small. So, please do not write off the "too tired" part--at least if there is a small child in the house. Helping her GET good sleep on a regular basis would be a much better plan.
I had no doubt in my mind that I'd choose sleep over sex, that's how sleep-deprived I was. And again, please don't judge unless you've experienced serious sleep deprivation, or think I didn't love sex. Yes, I did--but sleep became a lot more important. And I'm pretty sure my resentment started growing then. That wasn't the only issue, of course, but it sure as hell didn't HELP anything!
- Refused to "kiss" them sexually and/or
- Tell them - lets hurry up, or lets hurry and get this over with
...she WANTS me to kiss her and WANTS sex to be a nice, lengthy experience or we just don't have sex anymore.
BTW - the occasional quickie is fine.
Not sure about kissing, but, back when I was still talking to my wife, she was "too tired" for anything beyond brief sex during the week... She actually suggested the "let's be quick" thing. On edit I didn't take that offer, which was that we could do quickies on school nights and take our time on the weekend. Not really what I was looking for, but.
This wasn't a "death spiral" because it was more or less true. Frequency didn't decline, the sex didn't get worse, etc.. It is usually very, very easy for her to get off. When she was "too tired" she was--she'd be asleep at 9. Likewise my wife would usually get very sore after more than ten or fifteen minutes, but sometimes it takes a while...
Neither of us was interested in sex more than once or twice a week though. I would 'try' sometimes but it was usually more about boredom or restlessness. She said that with her live-in ex they would have sex once a month.
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I will however have a highly allergic reaction to anyone who says that maybe some of these women are too busy/too tired to spend 30 minutes to an hour having sex a few times a week. This isn't about fatigue. This is about:
- Not really liking the experience and wanting to make it quick as possible
- Wanting your partner to know you don't really like it or
- Wanting your partner to know you really don't care about how they feel
That said I would consider it sexually degrading to ME, if my W were to do either of the things described above.
But hey - I also blame any male who tolerates this. Because it sure sounds like this is more of a "jerking off into your partner" than connecting with them type thing.
I actually feel this way, but there is another side to it. I mean that if my wife can't stay up past 9 P.M. she is "too tired", and if she is having blood sugar issues when she gets home she needs to eat. But that still leaves about ninety minutes or so that *don't* have to be spent watching TV, but to use your metaphors daily stresses from life (not necessarily the marriage), etc., can lead to "too much heat" and brain-dead crap like watching old Law & Order episodes can let some of that stress off.
I want to say I agree that brain dead stress relief isn't as good as sex for getting rid of that stress, but to be honest there are times when I'd rather just lie down for half an hour than have sex.
All that said I still think that it shows a lack of consideration.
On edit "too tired" might mean "too tired" but "too tired hurry up and be quick" sounds like a test.
I would have to say this is a good point, Sister. Sometimes we don't understand what you, as women, are going through during those early child upbringing days. Definitely a point for learning.
Myself, my wife said all those things MEM mentioned. Its true half the blame is on 'us'. In my instance, it was me withdrawing via depression. And as mean as it may sound, who the heck would naturally be attracted to someone in a constant depressed mood. Posted via Mobile Device
1. Sisters describes the children death knell - exhaustion, changing of priorities... For me it was I moved into provider role after being a pretty useless provider in our early years, she moved into the mother role. That didn't help things.
But probably the bigger thing is just lack of self-awareness. Prior to our separations (that have ended up being a bit of reset button) I just figured things would get better when the kids got older. I was just stupid and uninformed about the dynamic between men/women. We were also enmeshed and codependent, which sucks away passion. I'd accept "forever" and so took what I could get because some sex was better than no sex.
It wasn't until I was dating and had actually learn about women, that I adopted a firm position of not being willing to be controlled by sex. Turns out that is a better life strategy. Go figure.
Not sure if that answers things.
2. I don't really know your back story. You're here and very wise and respected. But why are you here? Were you always in control of yourself and relationships, or did something catalyze that?
I don't know if it's just having kids--I wonder if it makes a difference if the babies are easier (learning to sleep 5-6 hours in a row by 2-3 months, for example, a "joy" I never got to experience). I don't know. I posted b/c for me, sleep deprivation is a TOTAL libido killer--and real sleep deprivation is different from being physically tired or an occasional poor night's sleep. Those things won't affect my libido much.
Man, the couple of times I did have "mom's night o'sleep" were heaven! I remember thinking, ah, this time, the infancy stage will be different. One good night of sleep every 7-10 days seemed to really help. But the experiment didn't continue, so I'll never know!
On the sleep deprivation thing, I think a good and decent man will do his share with the kids make sure that you are getting sleep too when he can and make allowances for extra tiredness and less sex when children are very young. Children demand so much time from parents it is exhausting, and while you both may get less sex, you will get more than other men if you are good to your wife and try and make sure her needs are met too.
I have always been a ball of energy, I never expected him to get up either in the middle of the night, back then our energy levels was probably about the same. But generally I have always needed less sleep than my husband. I also could never wait for the 6 week period to resume sex, I always remember feeling I can't wait & we did it weeks earlier, once getting pregnant (had 2 babies within 11 months of each other).
I was not one to "not wake" them or worry about noise during the day either, I recall other parents saying "Sshhhhh you don't want to wake the baby" and I used to think "are you crazy", they got used to the noise & running when Mom needed to run. And they slept better at night too.
I also never did any of this :
- Not really liking the experience and wanting to make it quick as possible
- Wanting your partner to know you don't really like it or
- Wanting your partner to know you really don't care about how they feel
My husband would have loved 3 or more times a week (back then), but he let my books & babies inbetween us (in bed) interfere with aggressively "taking me". He needed some indication I was "wanting" him in return (removing the baby, a kiss, my hand reaching below) or too often he just rolled over-thankfully not always, I do recall some nights he was after me, starting with a back scratch that went well beyond.
A shame really, as once he got me going, I was ALWAYS into it, loving it, most pleasurable moments in our life. By the time we got around to love making, we were both "starving".
Now a days, we don't even let the hunger build. It may not feel as intensely HOT as it did when we were starving, but it sure lasts longer & we love the connection.
Some people see themselves as parents first and spouses second. My wife has always put our marriage at or near the bottom in terms of priorities. Being a Hover-Mom has been at the top. "Children" first even though my youngest is almost 20. Still they need to be mothered and smothered. I will tell you our first was very very colicky and cried about 18 hrs a day for the first 10 months. The next one was a good calm sleepy baby and third was somewhere in the middle. But we were so burned out by then that my wife insisted, that #3 sleep in our bed. And he kind of never left. He was still sleeping there at age 9. Of course I wasn't but he was. In the middle of all of that we lost a fourth child and both of us at various times were cancer patients. So all I can suggest is rest when you can. Bad things can happen.
I agree that that's not the best approach as a woman, and lots of women don't understand the point you're making MEM. I, personally, don't do those things and never have. I see sex as a way to connect, as does my H. So much so, that right now we are about to separate, and I just want some kind of connection, and he'd rather go jerk off.
However, there is a flip side. Lots of women feel connection in other ways. They need to feel connected in order to have sex, but men need to have sex to feel connected. It's a catch 22. Sort of like when we want conversation, and our men say, "Can we make this quick?" or give you barely anything of importance while trying to conversate.
Just saying. It's a two way street. I think there's two sides, but the main explanation being that men and women are very different creatures.
I would not have a problem with "Can we hurry this up" as long as she's not bored and she's reasonably competent at it. Quick is one thing, lackadaisical is another. If she just wanted to be 'serviced' though, then who really cares either way.
Death spiral 
