Halien

Okay, this isn't a really serious question. Just more like a puzzle. I'm new here and frankly puzzled by the nice guy discussions, and the relationship to a wife turning down sex. Please don't think I mean it in a demeaning way.

To get to the point: Wife and I started seeing a new marriage counselor lately. Not really her issues as much as mine with coping with her mild mental illness. It was like the counselor, a woman, was following a script. One of her first questions to get to know us was (to my wife), "Tell me how often your husband wants sex, but you turn him down, or postpone?"

My wife looks at me, puzzled, and we both are puzzled. She tells her that maybe once or twice in twenty five years, but it was probably because I didn't know it was her period. The counselor seemed perplexed.

To give a flavor of our relationship, I remember early in the marriage we went to a counselfor who asked me if I would describe myself as a nice guy, or an alpha male. I said nice guy. My wife burst out laughing, and nearly rolled in the floor. She said that this was the reason she married me. I tried to be a nice guy, but I was too impatient for it.

I wonder if it's our own dymnamics going on, but my question is more or less very naive. I simply never imagined that as long as I was reading the signals, that she would say "no, I'm not in the mood." It certainly wasn't acceptable to her before we married, so how does it become so in such a short time in other cases, assuming that the husband is a decent guy who is trying to connect?

Today, my wife laughed at me and asked if I'm afraid that she'll just start saying no to mess with my mind. Her answer to this was that I just present sex in such a way that doesn't really make saying no an option, and doesn't make her feel that it is 'expected' either. Thoughts?

And if you think I'm bragging, I'm not. In other areas, I make her as mad as a nest of hornets sometimes because I rush into situations like a bull in a china shop.

Deejo

Simple. She has the hots for you ... whether you are getting along or not.

And that is the absolute crux of the whole man-up subject; fostering attraction, passion, excitement.

__________________
"I figured out they were serious eventually but was thinking it was ridiculous. I wanted to kick them in the balls." - Trenton

Conrad

If you could bottle what you have, you'd be a millionaire.

__________________
"Forgive or Re-Live"

-AFEH

Halien

Thanks. The hardest part of the relatonship was, after 20 years, hearing her and her psychiatrist tell me that her feelings of love are more like a dependency thing, and that for her sake we need to focus on the non-sexual aspect of being married (planned abstinence). To this day, I still don't get the logic. Bad things have happend to her over the years (bipolar depression), and because I'll take it, she's transferred the anger to me. So, what did I do, I asked. Or not do? They tell me that it has nothing to do with me. It just is. Outside of our sexual relationship, she mostly just thinks of me in anger.

My point was that we simply don't tolerate letting the things affect the sexual side. It never occurred to us. The same sexual dynamic occurred with previous girlfriends, but I know this breakdown usually occurs after marriage.

I think its more of a midlife thing. Questioning myself. I know she loves me very deeply, and feels so much guilt for the disease, but when I finally confessed that it really hurt me, things started going south, except for the intimacy.

IH8theFriendZone

You gotta give a couple of examples of how you broach the idea of sex to your wife. That is one of my biggest areas of ineptitude. I think my wife finds it EXTRAORDINARILY easy to turn me down and I know my approach sucks. Sometimes it's a question (which I will never do again), and sometimes I just move into her in bed or when she's standing up or something and she'll just say she's not in the mood and usually act annoyed that I have blood pumping through my veins.
So please...you gotta give out at least a couple of examples of how you approach it and how you make it so that it's difficult to turn away. (yes, I've read the marriedmansexlife blog post about this too...I want to learn as much as possible)
THANKS!

Halien

I'm not an expert, and hope I'm not embarrasing myself. It just works for us. Didn't realize that our example wasn't normal. My wife says that I'm dominant without being oppressive. I just know that I never stopped pursuing her like in the early days of the dating in the sexual sense. She says that it feels like I'm still trying to conquer her. So, we should know that sex is going to happen well before we get to the bedroom.

To me, its something I always took very serious. Start early, every day, and even the days I'm not interested in it going all the way. In other words, I try to make sure that she gets more out of it than I do, like caresses in places that are not blatantly sexual. Our family says I'm always caressing. Enjoy catching her while she's cooking, or when she first gets out of the car, and trap her. She says I'm a good kisser.

I love to turn innocent moments into suggestive ones through touches, but avoid the obvious parts of her body until the signs are there that she's given in. In other words, ten or more times an evening, I'll really feel her back when I pass by, then hips... Especially like making her give in when she's frustrated or angry. I used to bet her that she couldn't say no. Ultimately, she never did. She knows I'm sometimes a fool for her. We have strange rituals to prove it. I won't go further.

When we are in a crowd, I usually make sure that I can only see her, no matter where she is. I'll talk to others, but I want her to know that she's my heart. She notices.

She knows I honor her by learning everything I can about what she likes, and will take it slow, but very deliberate, and determined. We expecially enjoy occasionally making this deliberate stage last for days, where she sometimes slips up and goes all the way, but I don't.

Personally, I never pressure her about being the one to initiate. I'm just not going to be whiney about it.

Runs like Dog

Too much work too much negotiation.
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IH8theFriendZone

Thanks Halien. I've read a few places that it's something that should last all day or have a long time building up. I'm going to start that. But before I do, I need to up the alpha a little bit and turn down the thermostat a little as well. Since I feed her oodles of affection and attention anyway, it becomes very easy for her to get annoyed with me for constantly laying it on too thick.
Dial it back and she'll hopefully appreciate it more when she does get anything from an "I love you" to just general bits of affection. She is not a very affectionate person to begin with. She sure as hell could have fooled me before marriage. But I think the key with me is just to be a little more scarce and a little more independent without neglecting the kids or being irresponsible (e.g. she'd probably have a problem if I took all day Saturday to just go off by myself and do something, but she wouldn't have anything to say - whether she liked it or not - if I wasn't home as much from spending more time at the gym). I could go on and on but I'll stop.

Catherine602

When I read your post and I almost thought it was my husband only, he is sitting right here and told me "you know I don't like that sort of thing"

My husband is dominant and he does not ask for sex. My libido is lower than his and I am too inhibited to initiate unfortunately. It hard to explain what he does to initiate but it is seamless. He is an attentive man.

He touches me in non-sexual ways when we are together ie touches my waist to guide me when we are on our walks, holds hands when we are in a crowd, little things - I feel that he knows I around and having sex is not an abrupt change. He has no areas that he actively excludes me, however I think he appreciates that I don't invade his privacy unless invited (ei masturbation, porn).

Your post is the first I have read that seems to show a natural unforced understanding of what it takes to maintain a woman's sexual attachment. The man up formula is takes too much thought and mental sparing.

Maybe the gamesmanship is good for a mostly intellectual and less emotionally engaged men but, men who operate on a more emotional level would find this difficult. What may work better is to simply be careful not to place the wife into a little compartment in your life, only remembering she is there when you open the sex compartment.

The couples that we know who seem happiest are those who appear to have well integrated existences and neither partner is excluded from any of the compartments.

IH8theFriendZone

That's a good way of putting it...not to compartmentalize the spouse. I feel like I don't exclude her, but I do know that one of her turn ons (I don't know if it's a turn on any more but it used to be) was really deep conversation. That's tough to have with someone when they know everything about you. It's obviously exciting when you just meet someone new and you have a deep conversation because you're finding out new things and it's exciting. And it's tough to get deep when you're just talking about your day or the latest situation/news with the kids. I usually grab her butt because she has the perfect ass, but I can stop doing that and replace it with touches that are completely nonsexual. But then again, I think I do that too. There are times where I'll come up behind her and put my arm on her hips and give her kind of a one arm around the hip type hug and kiss her or something. It's tough right now because we just started an upswing and kind of a sexual rebirth (kind of) just in time for me to deploy to the middle east (I'm military) for 6 months. So I don't even know what works and what doesn't any more. I just know I'm using this time over here to truly focus on me, my issues, and come back a better man. That way, if things start to head south, I'll handle them like a better man and hopefully have much greater success. But I'll cross that bridge when/if I get to it.
Sorry if I hijacked this thread.

Halien

I think you get what you put into it. Believe, me, I'm not at all describing the benefits here. I went to a very open college, and many guys just wanted to get laid, but usually just went along very frustrated. I wanted to connect consistently at a deeper level, and just left it at that. I'll just leave it at saying that one of the reasons my wife didn't want to date me was because she was afraid of being compared to all of her friends.

IH8theFriendZone

I'm excited about this...I just hope that I don't annoy her. I'll have to start off gradual and work it up over time...like weeks. I'm just kind of amazed though because I never did this. I think I just got so demoralized after awhile that I'd just ask her for sex and, surprise, she'd get annoyed and say no. My wife is just so damn difficult to approach...or at least she was. We'll see how it goes when I get home in 4 months. Until then, I'm trying to make myself a better man...keep the beta where it is, but cue in the alpha as well.
Someone's signature put it perfectly: If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten.
Time for me to change...for the better!

Runs like Dog

If you have to pretend it's a bridge game at the same time pretending it's completely natural, to me, it's not worth it. Just right up a rule book and a score sheet and be done with it. Every week you can go to therapy and get a grade.

Conrad

Dog,

Have you ever really enjoyed anything you didn't have to work for?

__________________
"Forgive or Re-Live"

-AFEH

Halien

There are many different types of people out there. I can't think of one area that I don't try to compete. When I take a new job supervising a team, I try to find out what was the best the department ever ran, and destroy the record. Twenty years after starting with my company, the longest I've gone without a promotion is eighteen months. Of course, I sucked at sports. Had my leg bummed up really bad as a kid, so my exercise routine has to work around it.

I admire people who are able to take things slow and easy, though. There's a peace to it, I'm sure.

On the relationship side, I don't want to imply that it is one sided. It goes both ways, and follows its ebb and flow. My wife has mental health issues, but we decided early that it wouldn't impact the intimacy.