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Old 04-28-2011, 02:17 PM   #121 (permalink)
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DO NOT LET HIM STAY IN YOUR HOUSE UNTIL HE HAS FULFILLED ALL THE REQUIREMENTS.

And if you're smart, your requirements will take 6 months to complete.

If you let him come home now, you'll be back here again in 2 years. Count on it.
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Old 04-29-2011, 03:10 PM   #122 (permalink)
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If he's still saying he's "not sure" then there is your answer.

I would not get your hopes up. You are making it way too easy for him, Tob.

People who want to be committed to someone ARE committed and don't use the BS line of "Idk what to do/I"m confused/Not sure."
The bold bit- my feelings too. I don't think I realised it before, I was too busy empathising/worrying/trying to know "what it's like for him." Not negative behaviours in and of themselves, but I got so stuck in them that I forgot about ME.

Today was awkward. He felt better. I wanted to talk about things to outline how things were going to be from now- but I didn't want to spoil the day for the little ones so I kept putting it off

Anyhow. What ended up was me and him talking about how we could move forward if he moved back in, what we could change and how. Although it started off quite positive, particularly from him, it spiralled into more of the same on his part.

He had to twist it round to make it about what HE would find acceptable in order to come "home." Whilst I am happy to acknowledge he does have his own issues, I was not having this be about him in order to dampen down his part in this. I called him on it.

I outlined (again) what *I* would need. I was careful to be specific and give examples of what would help me to move forward in trusting him. Nothing outrageous, you understand. Things like him letting me know via a quick call or text each day where he was working (he said he "might not have time/be too busy" or he "might forget.) Also if she DID text, to save said texts (he threw his phone across the room then, said he had saved the last text she sent- there was one the other day.) He said he felt he had been doing these things, said he felt I would carry on with this forever, even though I outlined also that I would only need this for as long as I could see that he WAS the trustworthy person he said he was.

It all crumbled further when he said he would love to come back, but didn't know how he would feel after the older two came back at the start of next week. He said he thought we were already "seeing how it went." I said I didn't want "seeing how it went" or him committing until things got hard, or we fell out- I wanted a full commitment from him to working through the issues with the support of seeing a counsellor. He kept saying he wanted to come back but just didn't know if he would feel differently with the older kids back. I said I am not having this situation and that he needed to live elsewhere.

He wanted to stay tonight as he'd said he would get up with the babies tomorrow morning, and suggested he sleep on the sofa to keep out of the way. No, I said. He asked again. I said no. He said he'd wanted us to take them swimming tomorrow (ie go out together.) I said nothing. He just walked out.

Oh so hard *sigh* It feels like the right thing to do- it doesn't mean it's easy though.
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:10 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Tobio - I haven't responded yet but I've been following your situation. I'm sorry to hear that things are not going well and I've been up and down the rollercoaster that you are currently riding. It's a horrible feeling.

I'm curious what *he* needs in order to return home. The only things I've heard you mention are that he doesn't like having your older children around (which you can't do anything about, he needs to take the initiative to get some counseling about this issue if he truly wants to be with you) and he doesn't like your distrust of him (which he originated by kissing another woman and continues to make worse by not showing remorse and change in attitude).

The issue with the older children is one that he needs to either decide if he can move past it or not. This wishy-washy crap needs to stop. There's nothing you can do about the fact that you have older children and frankly his inability to deal with it is immature. I'm not saying his feelings aren't valid or that it isn't difficult to be a step-parent but he needs to decide if he is willing to try or not. If he is, then he needs to take steps to make it work. If not, then he needs to quit causing more grief for the whole family by going back and forth. Right now, it seems like he wants to be with you but will just keep whining and throwing the older children thing in your face to make you feel guilty or try to get you to overlook his flaws because he's doing you a "favor" by helping out with your older children. This is totally childish. Be a man. Make a decision to support your wife and ALL of her children or not.

The trust issue is one I have more experience with since my ex-h did similar things during our marriage and he always downplayed the seriousness of it and how it made me feel. I looked back on your first post about "the kiss" and it was only slightly over a month ago. He's acting like you have been harping on this one small issue for an unreasonable amount of time which is not the case at all. With trust issues, the more times someone lies or isn't trustworthy, the longer it takes to rebuild the trust and he doesn't seem to understand this. If it was just "the kiss" and he had spent the last few weeks showing remorse, being supportive, being totally transparent and giving you no reason to doubt him, you'd probably be feeling a lot better by now. But instead he lies about texts, "forgets" to tell you he worked with her again, buys treats for the other woman, etc. Everytime he did something like that, even small things, it pretty much doubles the amount of time he needed to build your trust again. Pretty soon, it gets to become a huge problem, but this was HIS problem. He created the problem and did not do the things he should have done to fix it right away. He thinks you are being unreasonable but what about him? He was unreasonable when he kissed another woman. He was unreasonable when he accepted her phone number. He was unreasonable when he texted her and bought things for her. Now he needs to accept that if he wants to be with you, he has to rebuild your trust and that means doing trustworthy things like offering to tell you who he is talking to on the phone rather than taunting you about it.

Stay strong. Keep reminding yourself what YOU need out of a relationship and don't allow him to keep you on the roller coaster. He either needs to stop thinking about his needs and start thinking about yours or move on.
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:13 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Ok so in the end he isn't sure about things (again) and on top of that isn't sure how he'll feel when your kids come back?

Um, your kids come first, Tob.

He is still trying to Jedi Mind-TRick you into thinking it's you that has the problems: it willonly work if YOU do what he wants and it will only work if YOU placate him and live up to his double standards and oh by the way, your kids may be the problem.

This makes me violent:

He had to twist it round to make it about what HE would find acceptable in order to come "home."

Cut him loose. He isn't worth the doormat you wipe your feet on when you walk in your house.
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:13 PM   #125 (permalink)
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I am glad that you came to the realization that you were being too empathetic but getting no consideration in return. I included some links on the subject of woman who give too much in a relationship. I think you will recognize him and yourself. Knowledge is power.

A man who is happy to take and not give back is immature and cannot give in a relationship. That is why he may have never been in a long-term relationship and was living at home with his mom who gave to him with no expectation of return.

A mature man who find it hard to be in a relationship with a woman who gives too much. These types of men thrive on what they can do for the woman and gets back from her in return.

Giving too much attracts weak, immature men who take but cannot not give. Relationship with them are ultimately draining and the woman ends up not feeling good about her self because she can not manage to get back what she gives. The relationship is only possible if you continue to cater to him and he has to give nothing.

If you leave him for good, he may get with this girl and if she is like you and will cater too him, she may be able to stay with him for a shot time, but eventually she will burn out and find someone else.

Maybe after many failed relationships he will finally realize that he is too selfish and may go about improving himself. I really don't think he will change by you showing him more understanding.

He needs to hit rock bottom, to feel the emptiness and discover that he does not treat woman with respect and that is why he can't keep the woman he is so proud of attracting.

You must stop giving him any support, no conversation about the relationship, no coming to you when he is sick, tell him you have decided that you will no longer give without first receiving, thats how relationships work.

No more outings with you and the kids he can see them alone. Have him come pick them up and leave, don't talk about anything but your kids.

If he cant give to you to win you back without you giving too much to him you may have a slim chance. I just don't think he is ready for a relationship and may not be until he gets out in the world and has to fend for himself.

I can imagine how hard this will be but, I think if you take this difficult journey you will be rewarded with a much happier life and in a relationship with a man who cherishes you and can give to you.

Do You Give TOO Much? | Soul-Filled Life

Women Who Give Too Much in Relationships and Why It Doesn't Work

Women Who Love Too Much - Google Books
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:21 PM   #126 (permalink)
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A man who is happy to take and not give back is immature and cannot give in a relationship. That is why he may have never been in a long-term relationship and was living at home with his mom who gave to him with no expectation of return.

If you leave him for good, he may get with this girl and if she is like you and will cater too him, she may be able to stay with him for a shot time, but eventually she will burn out and find someone else.

Maybe after many failed relationships he will finally realize that he is too selfish and may go about improving himself.
ITA. My bet is his pattern won't change until he realizes nobody is going to put up with this kind of treatment, of him doing whatever the flip he wants and not ever returning or reciprocating the same amount of respect/love his partner does.

he won't change overnight so my bet is the new chick will find out the same thing in time.

It's ALL about him.
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:43 PM   #127 (permalink)
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BTW the issue is NOT the older children is is the psychological problem that he has. Any man who would even hint that the existence of two children are a problem when he knew you had them is a self-centered immature, mean man.

Where are they going to go? they are children. He is in essence asking you to somehow get rid of your children and he will come back. Do you really want such a child-man.

It is about him, everything he does is for himself, he never considered how these children would feel with a man hostile to their existence in their own house. Yes it is their house they were there before he got there. They should decide if the want him in their house. Do you see that.

Right now I think you are in a sort of fog. You are not thinking clearly because you love a selfish man and in so doing you empathize with him.

So much so that you never ask a critical question - how, as a man, he can pit himself against two children. He does not understand a mothers love. You give him empathy to him you can at lest expect him to be compassionate to your children.

He wants all of your mommy attention and resents you giving any to your two kids. That's seems to be his problem. Maybe he never got enough love growing up. If that is the case then he is a very troubled man.
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:50 PM   #128 (permalink)
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Thanks for the links C. Just been looking through them.

He texted a little while ago. Asked if I could put the baby in the creche at the gym whilst I went to the gym tomorrow so he could go there to take the toddler swimming at the same time. I initially said ok thinking we wouldn't need to spend time together, but realised we'd have to drive there and back together. So texted back saying to scrap it and for him to just pick the babies up in the morning. Of course, he's just replied asking why scrap it? Not sure what to say, if anything- I don't want to be sniping or angry or rude, just straightforward and to the point.

I wish I intuitively knew the answers to stuff like this.
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Old 04-29-2011, 05:09 PM   #129 (permalink)
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I think your intuition already knows the answer...

and I agree with Cat again... it's not like your children materialized out of thin air one night. He knew you had them. It's not like this is new information. Him using them as an excuse is not only selfish... it's sick.
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Old 04-29-2011, 05:25 PM   #130 (permalink)
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Thanks for the links C. Just been looking through them.

He texted a little while ago. Asked if I could put the baby in the creche at the gym whilst I went to the gym tomorrow so he could go there to take the toddler swimming at the same time. I initially said ok thinking we wouldn't need to spend time together, but realised we'd have to drive there and back together. So texted back saying to scrap it and for him to just pick the babies up in the morning. Of course, he's just replied asking why scrap it? Not sure what to say, if anything- I don't want to be sniping or angry or rude, just straightforward and to the point.

I wish I intuitively knew the answers to stuff like this.
Tell him you want to spend time at the gym without the children because you need the time alone. In that way, You're asking him to step up and do something for you. If he responds badly. Tell him that you just took care of him when he was sick and he cannot give this one thing to you now.

Ask him why does he have a problem giving when you do so much for him? Ask him if he thinks of himself as a selfish man, tell him he better put that as his identity because that what he is.

Then Tobio, be as selfish as he is, give him a little bit less than he gives you. Don't make anything convenient don't be there for him. See if he responds by perusing you or if he gets angry like a child.

Let's see if he goes out of his way to bring you a box of special chocolates or any small gift of thanks for taking care of him when he was sick.

If he has not thanked you profusely for you attention to him, then you have your answer. You took care of him and he can not even reassure you about that girl.
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Old 04-29-2011, 05:36 PM   #131 (permalink)
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He had to twist it round to make it about what HE would find acceptable in order to come "home."
Let me pick my jaw back up off the floor.

What HE wants?

Hon, he is NOT READY.

When he comes to you and says "I screwed up. What can I do to make it up to you?" - THEN you can talk about him coming home.

Until then you are moving on with your life - alone.
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Old 04-29-2011, 05:38 PM   #132 (permalink)
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I just said, "just not good." I didn't want to be elaborate or wordy but wanted to just respond straightforwardly. I did already mention going to the gym but that shouldn't be a problem as he will be having the little ones tomorrow anyway.

I know what he will do. He will pursue. Enough for company but not enough to talk about reconciling.
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Old 04-29-2011, 05:45 PM   #133 (permalink)
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Thanks for the links C. Just been looking through them.

He texted a little while ago. Asked if I could put the baby in the creche at the gym whilst I went to the gym tomorrow so he could go there to take the toddler swimming at the same time. I initially said ok thinking we wouldn't need to spend time together, but realised we'd have to drive there and back together. So texted back saying to scrap it and for him to just pick the babies up in the morning. Of course, he's just replied asking why scrap it? Not sure what to say, if anything- I don't want to be sniping or angry or rude, just straightforward and to the point.

I wish I intuitively knew the answers to stuff like this.
tobio, I'm sorry but you need to grow a spine. He is using you. He is completely selfish and he just rolled all over your heart again, and he EXPECTS you to play kissy face with him?

When are you going to see him for the user he is?

Show him that you deserve better than this.
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Old 04-29-2011, 05:49 PM   #134 (permalink)
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I know what he will do. He will pursue. Enough for company but not enough to talk about reconciling.
What does this tell you?

That he is USING you so he doesn't have to be alone, but he couldn't care less about whether you are happy.

That is what Users do. They USE. For THEMSELVES.

You don't owe him anything, ok? He has harmed you beyond belief - HE owes YOU.

Don't do one thing for him any more.

If nothing else, look at it like you are HELPING him learn how to be a decent human being, by giving him the consequence of not spending time with him.

If you end up spending time with him, I'm going to be mad at you!
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Old 04-29-2011, 06:21 PM   #135 (permalink)
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He texted again asking why?

I replied:

The only time I want contact apart from you picking up and dropping off the boys is if you are prepared to put 100% into our relationship. Until then there is no purpose for talk.

I fully expect to receive no reply to that!
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