Yes, we do indeed agree on the overall picture with the difference being I disagree that biology is a valid excuse. This was further proven by Brennan pointing out that although women might biologically feel an urge to have babies during their baby years, they are fully capable of ignoring or overcoming these urges. This would suggest that we are capable of overcoming our biology. When society indulges and makes excuses based upon biology, you have a problem because there is no accountability of self.
In other words, we are intelligent and capable of responsibility so should not need such excuses. It's not as if men are the first to excuse emotional outbursts that women blame on PMS (biology) are they? I don't think women should blame their behaviors on that either.
In this day and age women can date a man without thinking it's a 9 month biological commitment. In fact, many do indeed date simply for fun without thinking that they will settle down with the man.
Finally to your finally, I am a woman and did not have any interest in a man that was of higher-status than me. Am I an exception? Maybe, but I am surrounded by women that are like minded. Perhaps this is why I find the type of men you describe in your last paragraph to be of little value.
Post Script:
I honestly do not have this problem with my husband in any way shape or form. He compliments me and has never shown me that he objectifies women. If he did, you're right, I'd most likely leave.
Umm, it wasn't me that brought up the parallel of shoplifting to a biological urge toward gathering. But I was pointing out that ogling is to cheating as looking at shoes is to stealing them. Logic is not a woman's strong suit, I know. I make allowances for these biological issues and explain again.
Biological urges was brought up by men here, I brought up a woman's biological urge have babies and to gather and that we control it otherwise we would all have 14 children and crime would be on the rise. We control ours, men don't.
As for your last comment, being insulting and condescending must be your strong suit. You attacked Catherine and now me. I don't appreciate it. We all have our own opinions, there is no need to stoop to that behavior.
Biological urges was brought up by men here, I brought up a woman's biological urge have babies and to gather and that we control it otherwise we would all have 14 children and crime would be on the rise. We control ours, men don't.
I know this discussion has traveled to another thread, but I wanted to respond to this.
I don't see how on earth a comparison can be made between a woman's "urge" to steal and get herself knocked up and a man having a passing thought about an attractive woman.
They don't even seem to be in the same category to me.
As for women having the ability to control their urges and men having no self-control? That is a generalization.
I believe that a man's natural response is to notice attractive women around him. You probably disagree with me. That's okay. But can we agree that he has a biological "urge" to act on that attraction response? If we want to talk about control, rather than comparing apples to oranges, let's compare apples to apples. I'll use cheating as an example of a biological urge, something both sexes struggle to control. I feel like that's a fair comparison, rather than putting having a dozen children up against having a brief thought.
There are dozens of men on these forums whose wives have cheated on them with other men. Did those women control their biological urges? They sure didn't.
There are dozens of men on here who are living in sexless marriages, who are frustrated and would love to go out and fulfill their urges with other women, but they don't. Do they control their biological urges? They sure do.
There are those on both sides of the gender gap who give into their urges. Let's not make it one-sided.
Maybe I'm way off here, but that's the way I see it.
I know this discussion has traveled to another thread, but I wanted to respond to this.
I don't see how on earth a comparison can be made between a woman's "urge" to steal and get herself knocked up and a man having a passing thought about an attractive woman.
They don't even seem to be in the same category to me.
As for women having the ability to control their urges and men having no self-control? That is a generalization.
I believe that a man's natural response is to notice attractive women around him. You probably disagree with me. That's okay. But can we agree that he has a biological "urge" to act on that attraction response? If we want to talk about control, rather than comparing apples to oranges, let's compare apples to apples. I'll use cheating as an example of a biological urge, something both sexes struggle to control. I feel like that's a fair comparison, rather than putting having a dozen children up against having a brief thought.
There are dozens of men on these forums whose wives have cheated on them with other men. Did those women control their biological urges? They sure didn't.
There are dozens of men on here who are living in sexless marriages, who are frustrated and would love to go out and fulfill their urges with other women, but they don't. Do they control their biological urges? They sure do.
There are those on both sides of the gender gap who give into their urges. Let's not make it one-sided.
Maybe I'm way off here, but that's the way I see it.
To your first point, a man having sexual thoughts/creating a list/logging in for further masturbatory exploration about random women has been explained here by men as biological. They say they cannot help it. It's in their DNA. What I was saying is that if we are using biology as a reason for poor behavior then women should have every right to have as many children as she wants. That is OUR biology. We want multiple children to ensure that at least one of our children grows to adulthood. So if biology is being used by men, then they should welcome us women using it as well. That was my point.
To your second point, cheating. I am not qualified to go there. I have never cheated but I have thought about it. When I was totally ignored by my husband you can bet I thought about how easy it would be. I decided it wasn't worth it. My integrity kept me on an even path. It wasn't biology.
To your third point, men living in a sexless marriage. I am going to catch hell here but no healthy woman is truly sexless. I am talking about a vibrant woman who suddenly doesn't want sex. Guess what? She does, just not with you. Something is amiss.
As for them controlling their biological urges? I haven't read a single man's post here who does. They all look at porn, some get happy endings from a "massage therapist" and some flat out cheat. They aren't controlling anything.
I never implied or suggested anything was one sided. What I was saying is that men rely on biology. Women should be allowed the same luxury. If we are going to lean on biology to excuse our behavior, let's make it universal.
Women have to invest carefully in the mate they choose because it's 9 months - 18 years commitment; men can afford biologically to spread their seed far and wide. Thus, because of biological factors involved we do think differently. How we act is the thing on which we should be judged.
Finally, throwing a twist into the mess, because women want a man who is higher-status than she is, men have to continue to act in ways that demonstrate this status and are rewarded for it. One of those ways is to ogle other women. Only a high-status male could get away with that. Another is to cheat prodigiously. Only a super-high-status man could get away with that. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it explains the proclivity to think/act this way, and women are to "blame" just as much as men.
This is so full of illogical assumptions and unsubstantiated assertion that it is pretty much a worthless argument.
No woman is to "blame" if a man acts like a pig and ogles or worse. Ogling isn't biology; it's bad manners and a complete disrespect for others he is with. But we can all be aware of an attractive person--and yet without ogling or behaving rudely.
And if you think women aren't noticing, you are not reading carefully. Status has nothing to do with appreciating (discretely) a handsome guy. The main reason women don't ogle more is because we've been taught not to.
Brennan, I like you, but that is about as grotesque a mischaracterization and over-generalization as I've come across on these boards.
Words written in anger warrant a do-over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brennan
True. Please explain though.
I think you wrote some indefensible things things regarding gender and biology that reflect your anger at a specific person. You've extrapolated to entire gender the wounding you've experienced.
You can't cite some obnoxious postings by a few and refer to them as a general way of all men.
If I did that towards women I'd be called on it.
I'm kind of disappointed since I don't believe you truly think this way. It's a way for you to vent your anger.
You have had a number of men in this thread try to explicitly explain what goes through their mind. Speaking for myself, I didn't do so to be smug. I'm not offering biology as an excuse for misbehavior, primarily because I have never remotely considered it as misbehaving or disrespectful. Staring at a woman or indulging in protracted sexual fantasy about her while staring at her? Very inappropriate, classless ... but that is isn't what I do ... and the apparent problem is that you and others believe it is.
Pornography is completely outside of the context of this topic. In this instance, porn is apples and q-tips. But attraction keeps being lumped in with pornography
In a nutshell, my point was a man that notices a woman, in a fraction of a second knows whether or not he is attracted to her. Women know it too. If you want to assure having a neutral to negative 'notice' ratio, then I'd suggest start wearing baggy, colorless clothes all the time, stop wearing makeup and doing your hair. Point being, women DO often dress and make themselves up to be noticed. I don't think because a woman is wearing a blouse with a plunging neckline that she is inviting or should be subjected to some dude's rape fantasy ... but she knows damn well what the response from men will be by choosing to wear something that makes her 'stand out'.
Seriously, what is it that you would like to see? If this is about the anger you have for your husband, I can understand, but it is still misplaced.
Do you want men to NOT have a strong desire to pursue women?
Testosterone performs very specific roles ... most of them sexual, geared towards biological desire, and generating biological changes in male physiology to make them more desirable to women. That isn't an excuse or a cop-out. It's nature. But it does not mean that we by default abandon choice, excuse or condone bad behavior.
Take that hormone out of the equation, and you get your wish. No more oggling. No more 'checklist'. Actually if the research is right, that may happen. Base T levels in men have been dropping for the last few decades
I think what bugged me is that regarding the men in sexless marriages piece, that you take a shot at the very kind of guy that it sounds like you wish there were more of (accomodating, kind, positive, well mannered) by pointing out that they are sexless because their wives don't want to have sex with them.
You are painting with extraordinarily broad strokes. Are there men out there that have utter disregard for women, and only objectifies them? Without a doubt. There are very few if any of those men on these forums.
SA: How can this be! I scored 'filthy!' told ya i've been deprived too long!!
This doesn’t surprise me too much, I think it works this way if you are starving In the desert. Got to hand it to you Stumblealong, you sure know how to ask a question & set it ON FIRE, look at all these pages, this may break a record here at TAM !
Yes, we do indeed agree on the overall picture with the difference being I disagree that biology is a valid excuse. This was further proven by Brennan pointing out that although women might biologically feel an urge to have babies during their baby years, they are fully capable of ignoring or overcoming these urges. This would suggest that we are capable of overcoming our biology. When society indulges and makes excuses based upon biology, you have a problem because there is no accountability of self.
In other words, we are intelligent and capable of responsibility so should not need such excuses. It's not as if men are the first to excuse emotional outbursts that women blame on PMS (biology) are they? I don't think women should blame their behaviors on that either.
In this day and age women can date a man without thinking it's a 9 month biological commitment. In fact, many do indeed date simply for fun without thinking that they will settle down with the man.
Finally to your finally, I am a woman and did not have any interest in a man that was of higher-status than me. Am I an exception? Maybe, but I am surrounded by women that are like minded. Perhaps this is why I find the type of men you describe in your last paragraph to be of little value.
Post Script:
I honestly do not have this problem with my husband in any way shape or form. He compliments me and has never shown me that he objectifies women. If he did, you're right, I'd most likely leave.
5Likes
Re: Is this the way men really think...? 
