I get tired of members telling new members to man up or put their big girl panties on. I want to start by saying that I totally agree with setting boundaries, doing a 180 and sticking to those points with the WS. None of these are "manning up", they are just good practices. In my own case, when my WS was still in contact, I told her it was either NC or a separation with her moving out. I also told her separation meant she still paid 1/2 of the mortgage, house expenses and child support and it did not mean I was paying for apartment - not even 1/2. ALl income and accounts like Credit cards and banks and online accounts would be separated. It also meant all extracirricular activities for our daughter had to cease because neither of us could afford to fix the house up for eventual sale and deal with all of the additional expenses of separation while maintain the same lifestyle and extracirricular costs. I put a time limit of 3-6 months dependent on her continued behavior before I would file for D. Once she saw the paper work for separation and we had hard discussions about D, she decided to try and work things out and started NC. This is not manning up, it's a practical approach to dragging the WS out of the fog. I have maintained those boundaries and we are working through the pain of the A very well.
Now to the part I dislike about the "manning up" crowd. Your wayward spouse did something terrible. They need to confront why they did it, understand it and help the BS work through his pain. They should not be thrown out, kicked to the curb, punished, made to feel inhuman or threatened. They should also not be made to feel in prison under security cmaeras and microphones. Full disclosure must be voluntary or the WS will withdraw to where they are comfortable - back to the A. All of those are abusive. While the WS may react to those behaviors by starting to change, it will most likely be out of fear which will eventually turn into resentment when they begin to do their version of manning up to regain their self esteem. In the case of my WS, those behaviors only served to galvanize her to leave to get away from me thinking I would NEVER heal or deal with the emotions I had. It also convinced her I would remain abusive and threatening forever.
Unless you are the sole owner of your house before marriage and your wife has contributed nothing in terms of support by caring for your kids and you or in the form of income, no police department or court is going to allow throwing her out or changing the locks to stand. The WS has every bit as much right to be in the house as you. Separation has to be mutually agreed upon and fair conditions laid down around it. By pushing the WS out, you are also reducing the chances of R and increasing the chances the A activity will increase. Still the boundaries and requirements for not separating must be firm and not deviated from.
Last but not least, if you yell, scream and get angry you are driving the WS away as well as setting yourself up for spousal abuse charges. Abuse can be verbal, it doesn't have to get physical. Assault is the threat, battery is the act.
So when a new member comes on the forum looking for guidance and support, I feel it completely opposite the goals of this forum to challenge their manhood or determination to get through it or reconciling by saying man up. If someone asks if reconcilliation is possible, they are looking for hope. Most are in shock and in no position to make major decisions. Yes set boundaries and requirements to stay together in the same house. If the new member is so bitter that they just want to end it and D, the longer term members need to suggest calming down and setting a strategy plan in place before they make that major jump. Is the WS wrong, hell yes. And well thought out responses and boundaries and action are needed.
Once the A is stopped recovery for both the LS and WS should begin if R is to work. Both spouses need to work.
In terms of the LS recovering form the pain and dealing with a form of PTSD, yes the WS needs to help and answer questions. An inquisition it should not be. Down to the color of the underwear or the acts performed only creates additional triggers. The LS needs to begin to confront their triggers and start dealing with their anxiety and anger. The WS spouse should be there to help them reduce anxiety and fears by the right actions and loving contact like holding the LS or calling them as soon as the word fear or anger is used. Question are OK so long as they are not from and anger and attacking tone or behavior. Those cause the WS to shut down and avoid future questions.
SO, don't challenge their manhood or call them weak. Don't blow out what little self esteem they have left. DO listen to what they want to do and make suggestions and guidance. Do encourage a cooling down period before making long term decisions. Do encourage thinking of the WS feelings.
My rule is do no harm, even if I'm being harmed. DOn't stoop to their level. If they aren't coming back and you D, doing harm will make the D spiteful and not amicable and probably drain all of the money into a lawyers pocket. If I am faced with a police officer at my door to charge me with spousal abuse, which tact will be more likely to keep me out of jail and show my WS true colors.
OK have at me here - not hijacking others threads and I will try to do the same.
I find it ironic that everything you say that "should" be done in the treatment of a WS is EXACTLY the same guidance given for when we need to MAN up.
It's also ironic that your WS decided to work on the marriage AFTER you decided to MAN up and show your boundaries.
No where on this forum have I seen the definition of Manning Up to be synonymous with abuse. Keep in mind that a 180 and sticking to your boundaries is next to impossible or a Nice Guy, until they realize that in order for them to do this (which in my opinion is so counter intuitive for a nice guy to do) is that first they need o Man up and realize the power of boundaries and the 180.
I am still wondering if his post is irony in and of itself or just an ironic situation. Does he know that everything he described is manning up in regards to how he is saving his relationship and is looking for stupid reactions or does he not realise it so is unaware of the irony in the post thereby making it an ironic situation and not true irony.
In closing its ironic that the most common use of the word irony is its misuse.
Ahh a fan of true Irony I <3 you for that Alpha so many people lose what irony is about and think coincidences etc is irony. Thank you sir for restoring more of my faith in wit and humor. Now if we could only get people to realize comedies aren't all laughs and fart jokes... owell somethings will enver come back.
If it's abuse it is NOT manning up. As for demanding transparency, that is a judgement call. My view is simply that the WS has betrayed their partner and the betrayed spouse has the right to insist on transparency/monitoring as a condition of moving forward. If the WS "resents" being monitored more than they feel "remorse" for cheating, that right there tells you where they really stand. Which is they feel bad they got "caught" more so than feeling bad for injuring their partner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8yearscheating
I get tired of members telling new members to man up or put their big girl panties on. I want to start by saying that I totally agree with setting boundaries, doing a 180 and sticking to those points with the WS. None of these are "manning up", they are just good practices. In my own case, when my WS was still in contact, I told her it was either NC or a separation with her moving out. I also told her separation meant she still paid 1/2 of the mortgage, house expenses and child support and it did not mean I was paying for apartment - not even 1/2. ALl income and accounts like Credit cards and banks and online accounts would be separated. It also meant all extracirricular activities for our daughter had to cease because neither of us could afford to fix the house up for eventual sale and deal with all of the additional expenses of separation while maintain the same lifestyle and extracirricular costs. I put a time limit of 3-6 months dependent on her continued behavior before I would file for D. Once she saw the paper work for separation and we had hard discussions about D, she decided to try and work things out and started NC. This is not manning up, it's a practical approach to dragging the WS out of the fog. I have maintained those boundaries and we are working through the pain of the A very well.
Now to the part I dislike about the "manning up" crowd. Your wayward spouse did something terrible. They need to confront why they did it, understand it and help the BS work through his pain. They should not be thrown out, kicked to the curb, punished, made to feel inhuman or threatened. They should also not be made to feel in prison under security cmaeras and microphones. Full disclosure must be voluntary or the WS will withdraw to where they are comfortable - back to the A. All of those are abusive. While the WS may react to those behaviors by starting to change, it will most likely be out of fear which will eventually turn into resentment when they begin to do their version of manning up to regain their self esteem. In the case of my WS, those behaviors only served to galvanize her to leave to get away from me thinking I would NEVER heal or deal with the emotions I had. It also convinced her I would remain abusive and threatening forever.
Unless you are the sole owner of your house before marriage and your wife has contributed nothing in terms of support by caring for your kids and you or in the form of income, no police department or court is going to allow throwing her out or changing the locks to stand. The WS has every bit as much right to be in the house as you. Separation has to be mutually agreed upon and fair conditions laid down around it. By pushing the WS out, you are also reducing the chances of R and increasing the chances the A activity will increase. Still the boundaries and requirements for not separating must be firm and not deviated from.
Last but not least, if you yell, scream and get angry you are driving the WS away as well as setting yourself up for spousal abuse charges. Abuse can be verbal, it doesn't have to get physical. Assault is the threat, battery is the act.
So when a new member comes on the forum looking for guidance and support, I feel it completely opposite the goals of this forum to challenge their manhood or determination to get through it or reconciling by saying man up. If someone asks if reconcilliation is possible, they are looking for hope. Most are in shock and in no position to make major decisions. Yes set boundaries and requirements to stay together in the same house. If the new member is so bitter that they just want to end it and D, the longer term members need to suggest calming down and setting a strategy plan in place before they make that major jump. Is the WS wrong, hell yes. And well thought out responses and boundaries and action are needed.
Once the A is stopped recovery for both the LS and WS should begin if R is to work. Both spouses need to work.
In terms of the LS recovering form the pain and dealing with a form of PTSD, yes the WS needs to help and answer questions. An inquisition it should not be. Down to the color of the underwear or the acts performed only creates additional triggers. The LS needs to begin to confront their triggers and start dealing with their anxiety and anger. The WS spouse should be there to help them reduce anxiety and fears by the right actions and loving contact like holding the LS or calling them as soon as the word fear or anger is used. Question are OK so long as they are not from and anger and attacking tone or behavior. Those cause the WS to shut down and avoid future questions.
SO, don't challenge their manhood or call them weak. Don't blow out what little self esteem they have left. DO listen to what they want to do and make suggestions and guidance. Do encourage a cooling down period before making long term decisions. Do encourage thinking of the WS feelings.
My rule is do no harm, even if I'm being harmed. DOn't stoop to their level. If they aren't coming back and you D, doing harm will make the D spiteful and not amicable and probably drain all of the money into a lawyers pocket. If I am faced with a police officer at my door to charge me with spousal abuse, which tact will be more likely to keep me out of jail and show my WS true colors.
OK have at me here - not hijacking others threads and I will try to do the same.
If I was that far out of step/synch with a group of men I’m somewhat involved with as you are here I’d take a very good, long hard look at myself.
8yearscheating, I put the 180 and Boundaries on TAM. I put them here because they greatly helped me and I hoped they’d help others. Now nobody but nobody would tell me I’m “not a man”. But still I consider those two things “manning up”. And if you think some of the men on here are being “tough” you have not seen anything at all.
Sometimes people need “TOUGH LOVE” as all the mothering, mollycoddling, pampering, cosseting, indulging in the world never gets a man to take a good look at himself and undertake the changes he needs to make to himself.
Just as a partner will "steamroll" you if she finds you are unwilling to enforce personal boundaries, she will ALSO withdraw to see "how much you will do".
Many guys make the huge mistake (I've made it) of taking on this, that and the other thing as a way of showing how committed they are.
Subconsciously - this spells d-o-o-r-m-a-t.
Seriously - how much "time" does a stay at home spouse spend "working" during the day, between naps, phone calls, texting, computer time, and driving the kids around?
Doesn't such a spouse need to have an idea of the "other half" of what's being done to make their day possible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFEH
If I was that far out of step/synch with a group of men I’m somewhat involved with as you are here I’d take a very good, long hard look at myself.
8yearscheating, I put the 180 and Boundaries on TAM. I put them here because they greatly helped me and I hoped they’d help others. Now nobody but nobody would tell me I’m “not a man”. But still I consider those two things “manning up”. And if you think some of the men on here are being “tough” you have not seen anything at all.
Sometimes people need “TOUGH LOVE” as all the mothering, mollycoddling, pampering, cosseting, indulging in the world never gets a man to take a good look at himself and undertake the changes he needs to make to himself.
Just as a partner will "steamroll" you if she finds you are unwilling to enforce personal boundaries, she will ALSO withdraw to see "how much you will do".
Many guys make the huge mistake (I've made it) of taking on this, that and the other thing as a way of showing how committed they are.
Subconsciously - this spells d-o-o-r-m-a-t.
Seriously - how much "time" does a stay at home spouse spend "working" during the day, between naps, phone calls, texting, computer time, and driving the kids around?
Doesn't such a spouse need to have an idea of the "other half" of what's being done to make their day possible?
I don’t think it’s possible in all cases for the non essential earner to know and understand the world of the partner who earns the essentials.
Take my wife. She went from her parent’s home to our marriage home. She was a young mother at age 20 and my goodness she had so much to learn and did so very well what with looking after two sons, taking care of the home and looking after me. She had mountains to climb and she got to the top. I on the other hand in the beginning had two jobs just to try and make ends meet and they never did for a long while.
My wife never had to earn to pay the rent or mortgage, any of the utility bills, holidays, cars etc. etc. When she did go to work what she earned was her money to do what she liked with and to be honest I liked it that way.
So not once until she was in her late 50s did she ever have to worry about “who” was going to pay the rent, utilities etc. But she’s in that world now and I knew until she was right in it she was never ever going to “get it”. I think she’s swimming and I’m quite proud of her.
You can call your approach to new members tough love if you want to. To someone who is already self destructing and who has less self esteem than is healthy, challenging their manhood could push them deeper in the hole. In my own case it made me ignore everything that crowd said to me which I'm sure is not the desired effect. In others it might inflame an already raging person and cause them to become abusive achieving exactly the wrong attitude to success. I guess I didn't need to be manned up, I was already man enough for the right actions and behavior. Bravado wasn't necessary. I was already confident and self assured without shouting I was a MAN. In fact, I needs to be careful not to be too strong and overpower and push my wife away. Posted via Mobile Device
You can call your approach to new members tough love if you want to. To someone who is already self destructing and who has less self esteem than is healthy, challenging their manhood could push them deeper in the hole. In my own case it made me ignore everything that crowd said to me which I'm sure is not the desired effect. In others it might inflame an already raging person and cause them to become abusive achieving exactly the wrong attitude to success. I guess I didn't need to be manned up, I was already man enough for the right actions and behavior. Bravado wasn't necessary. I was already confident and self assured without shouting I was a MAN. In fact, I needs to be careful not to be too strong and overpower and push my wife away. Posted via Mobile Device
Different people give different advice. Surely that is part of the beauty of TAM. It is entirely up to you how you respond to that advice. Your response is totally your responsibility. As is the way others respond totally their responsibility.
Manning up should not be abuse! 
