Bob,
Thank you for your kind words. I learn and benefit from your posts.
I am going to make a general comment about Wolf. He has been very helpful to me over time. In fact more than any other poster Wolf helped me realize that I needed to shift gears and use more body language and tone of voice and fewer words.
That single change in style may have helped my marriage more than any other thing I have done. And ummm, it isn't just me. In a marriage the "ancient" language works far better than the "modern" communication style of words and logic and reason.
Wolf, this is my very belated thanks to you for opening my eyes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFEH
Don’t know about anybody else Trenton but I’ve gotten rather tired of your constant knocking of BBW. What is it you have such a desperate need to prove? Why do you consistently and constantly knock BBW? Aren’t you even just a little bit concerned with being seen as a troll as far as BBW is concerned?
As far as my marriage is concerned if I’d heard MEMs and BBWs messages long ago the dark times in my marriage wouldn’t have been so dark when my wife poked me. In fact I think we’d have soon come out of them laughing, together.
There is something you are missing Trenton and you’re missing it big time. It seems almost deliberate.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if my husband had heard the message of the three mentioned, I wouldn't be here 17 years later about to pull the plug. Also, Bob is correct about his description of passive aggressive behavior. That describes my husband to a tee. That isn't temperature cooling, it is a deliberate action designed to hurt. Temperature cooling on the other hand is using your internal barometer to gauge the relationship. Come on too strong and somebody backs away. Come on too subtle and somebody looks to somebody else. It is a delicate balance to say the least but it is not manipulation or pass/agg behavior. This behavior is designed to improve the health of the relationship where as pass/agg behavior is designed to destroy it.
Having said all that, I sometimes think that too much thought is put in to relationships. If you are checking the temperature of your relationship hourly/daily, perhaps there are other things going on. Sometimes a woman is just moody. Sometimes a guy is just moody. It doesn't always have to be seen as some sort of test. All kinds of daily activities can cause a person to be edgy. Idiot drivers, rude people, waiting in long lines at the grocery store, co-workers. It doesn't always mean the relationship is being tested. Don't we all have days like this?
Bob, Trenton is not a troll and is entitled to her opinion. I can see where BBW's message would rub some the wrong way. It did me for a very long time. After much soul searching I realize I was wrong and I do want aspects of what he is saying. Trenton does not. That doesn't mean she is wrong, it just means for her, this approach wouldn't work. She is very good at pointing out the other side when a blanket statement is made. She doesn't pick on BBW or anybody else here. She doesn't like blanket statements and stands steadfast for both sexes that diversity occurs between all of us.
T,
Deep sigh. I like the sex analogy so we will stick with that. My behavior
Is simply the equivalent of letting your spouse initiate sex. And when
They do you respond very positively. So let's do the full analog
Here. Let's say the W simply knows that her H strongly prefers
To initiate. And allowed to do so he happily and frequently does so.
And while he is ok if she Initiates every once in a while, he responds
Badly to her doing so frequently.
You are combining "rejection" with letting the other person "set the
Pace". I think the idea of "restraint" does not come naturally to
You.
I'm confused by your post. I'm talking about a woman doing a set of behaviors (having sex frequently, being complimentary, etc.) to satisfy the man in the beginning but quickly changing this shortly after being married because she feels comfortable that her man will stay by her side and her desire dwindles.
In the above scenario (and it's quite simplistic, almost uncomfortably so), the woman is doing only what she has to in order to get this man to get with her. It's manipulative because she is not being herself, she is behaving a certain way temporarily in order to gain what she wants.
If we take man up and the man in the scenario feels miserable, sexually deprived and duped so he does a 180 and works on his own happiness. If the changes he makes are surface and contrived with only the idea that these behaviors will gain back his wife, it's manipulation.
If he's doing it because he wants to improve himself and recognizes that what he's become is not who he is at all, if he's learning and growing in knowledge, and becoming a better partner because who he is, is not who he's been then, viola, it's emotional and personal growth and all good.
Again, the problem is not with the method it's in recognizing that in order to truly help someone you've got to really be willing to dig, learn and listen as well. Generalizations are helpful in that they give us insights into ourselves and others but they are not the makers of perfect solutions for individuals.
Do I have a problem with restraint? I'm not sure I understood the context of your words because I didn't understand your post very well, but regardless, it depends. I'm very capable of self control. I feel no need to sugar coat my words or agree when I disagree. Will I do so in a volatile way that is disrespectful? No.
Bob, you are entitled to your perception as I am mine. I can assure you that everything I do is deliberate. I don't randomly post things without reason or care. I mean what I say. Sometimes I change my opinion. With BBW I sometimes agree and will say so when I do. If I don't or I get an impression, I will share that as well. I didn't even address BBW directly in this thread so I'm confused by your post.
T,
From your earlier post:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If a man controls and withholds specific behaviors or attitudes that actually do come naturally to him in order to prompt a specific behavior from his wife, it's a similar selfish behavior. I'm just saying, let's call a spade a spade.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1. I AM CONTROLLING AND WITHHOLDING SPECIFIC BEHAVIORS from my W.
2. Those behaviors - being more loving DO COME NATURALLY TO ME
3. Those behaviors - ME BEING HOTTER - are MAJOR LOVEBUSTERS to her.
4. Me consciously choosing to show restraint in this area is completely intentional. The INTENT is to create an environment where my W doesn't feel emotionally crowded or anxious. In this "lower temperature" environment she feels comfortable loving me for all the "core" stuff I do that makes a marriage great.
If this does not make sense to you I accept that in this area your frame of reference is so different than mine that we are simply to able to communicate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trenton
I'm confused by your post. I'm talking about a woman doing a set of behaviors (having sex frequently, being complimentary, etc.) to satisfy the man in the beginning but quickly changing this shortly after being married because she feels comfortable that her man will stay by her side and her desire dwindles.
In the above scenario (and it's quite simplistic, almost uncomfortably so), the woman is doing only what she has to in order to get this man to get with her. It's manipulative because she is not being herself, she is behaving a certain way temporarily in order to gain what she wants.
If we take man up and the man in the scenario feels miserable, sexually deprived and duped so he does a 180 and works on his own happiness. If the changes he makes are surface and contrived with only the idea that these behaviors will gain back his wife, it's manipulation.
If he's doing it because he wants to improve himself and recognizes that what he's become is not who he is at all, if he's learning and growing in knowledge, and becoming a better partner because who he is, is not who he's been then, viola, it's emotional and personal growth and all good.
Again, the problem is not with the method it's in recognizing that in order to truly help someone you've got to really be willing to dig, learn and listen as well. Generalizations are helpful in that they give us insights into ourselves and others but they are not the makers of perfect solutions for individuals.
Do I have a problem with restraint? I'm not sure I understood the context of your words because I didn't understand your post very well, but regardless, it depends. I'm very capable of self control. I feel no need to sugar coat my words or agree when I disagree. Will I do so in a volatile way that is disrespectful? No.
Bob, you are entitled to your perception as I am mine. I can assure you that everything I do is deliberate. I don't randomly post things without reason or care. I mean what I say. Sometimes I change my opinion. With BBW I sometimes agree and will say so when I do. If I don't or I get an impression, I will share that as well. I didn't even address BBW directly in this thread so I'm confused by your post.
Trenton - I think you are making a valuable point. If I am correct what you are saying is that to be truly intimate with a loved one you must be authentic, reveal the true you. I agree fully with that. If you present a false self, a spouse falls in love with what they think you are. The real person invariably emerges and the deception is detected. I believe that and I think we all have problems revealing ourselves in new relationships but in time maybe 2 yrs it all comes out. that why i beleive that the decision to marry should not be considered before 2 yrs.
So where does changing behaviors come in to maintain sexual tension? Is it manipulation to grt what one wants or to main a mutually satisfying relationship. I'll use my relationship as an example - I would not be sexually attracted to my husband if he was p***y- wiped. Another words if he was not a little cool and independent and not able to show me anger when I do or say something or he acted in any way like he was fearful of losing me.
That for some reason keeps me attracted. Is he really like this? Maybe not, when we first became friends at 16 yo, he let me get away with a lot, I had the upper hand for a long time because he was very much in love, I was too but he was the one who worried about losing me because I got a lot of male attension.
We went though a period of conflict and he just changed from a loved besotted boy to a confident man. And I took notice and started to cater to him I did not want to lose him, I wanted no one else. He is still him but he knows what we need to keep things going. I know he did not change because he knew it would work - it was really by accident- he got weary of dealing with my s**t and withdrew probably to rest his emotions and noticed how I responsed. He was smart enough to do what was needed to keep me and I him.
I don't think I was manipulated I got what I wanted and needed - a dominant man who is confident in his drawing power. That would not work for all women, so each couple has to adjust to give the other what they needs to be confident and happy in the relationship. You reveal your real basic self of course but that self is not just the way you interact with your spouse. You action are manipulative but not to hide what you are but to be what you need to be.
If ones basic nature makes it impossible to ajust there interactions to keep the proper tension, then there may be an incompatibility. Posted via Mobile Device
T,
From your earlier post:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If a man controls and withholds specific behaviors or attitudes that actually do come naturally to him in order to prompt a specific behavior from his wife, it's a similar selfish behavior. I'm just saying, let's call a spade a spade.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1. I AM CONTROLLING AND WITHHOLDING SPECIFIC BEHAVIORS from my W.
2. Those behaviors - being more loving DO COME NATURALLY TO ME
3. Those behaviors - ME BEING HOTTER - are MAJOR LOVEBUSTERS to her.
4. Me consciously choosing to show restraint in this area is completely intentional. The INTENT is to create an environment where my W doesn't feel emotionally crowded or anxious. In this "lower temperature" environment she feels comfortable loving me for all the "core" stuff I do that makes a marriage great.
If this does not make sense to you I accept that in this area your frame of reference is so different than mine that we are simply to able to communicate.
Mem, what you are changing is positive for the relationship and is obviously well in your range of normal behaviors as it comes naturally. You very well may attribute all your success to the helpful advice of Man Up philosophies but I believe focusing on the individual story and working to figure out the issues, with the person asking for help, provides quicker and more effective advice.
Let me try a different example. Husband is told to turn down the thermostat because he is doing a lot of household chores in the relationship as well as working and the men of these great forums have decided that this is too much for a man to do and the wife is taking advantage. Post after post reiterates..., "You are a doormat. Please check out the Man Up thread <insert link>. Then a small debate ensues about whether or not it's natural for men to become doormats. Isn't it natural for men to be providers? Is it the feminization of men that lead to this? <insert cliche about wanting and eating cake> <insert argument about feminists> Yadda Yadda.
Let's say Claire (the wife) really is having a hard time with her husband because she tells him how she feels but he doesn't listen to her. Her real anger and resentment comes from getting home each evening and sitting down to express herself but Buddy (husband) is always distracted by sports news and his love of carpentry that just so happens to coincide with the time Claire is unwinding and wanting to talk. He won't allow her time to talk and express herself but is ignorant that he even does this. As a result, even when Claire spells out the actual problem she has in the relationship that has created resentment and disconnect, Buddy can't hear the message and neither can we, because we think it's just another classic case of man up syndrome.
Buddy gets support in these forums and instantly begins thinking...I do everything for this woman and she is still shutting me out, unresponsive in the bedroom and unappreciative of all I provide for her. It's time to work on my happiness, what I want and turn the thermostat down so that my wife will want to have sex with me.
Claire has had it. She wants a divorce and has begun confiding in a male friend at work who is indeed very interested in what she has to say. She doesn't even notice Buddy turning the thermostat down because she could care less. An EA is forming with the man at work and Buddy is still at home confused as to why Claire isn't responding.
In this case, if we as forum listeners can't do anything but provide support that creates entitlement and adds fuel to Buddy's already burning fire, what help do we really offer? Perhaps Man Up would work and it might eventually lead to the reconnection of the Claire and Buddy but at what cost? Wouldn't asking Buddy the right questions, considering all factors and getting opinions of both men and women with varying perspectives help Buddy more?...and with more speed?
OK, so this is long. It outlines clearly my problem with generic offerings of help or the idea specifically that we are not snowflakes and that all relationships between men and women are the same. This is what I can't fathom.
So I'm in the minority. I get that. I don't think this means I should lose the chance to address it.
T,
The scenario you describe is a very real fear I have. Meaning that the person lowering the temperature was getting a bad result NOT because of excess warmth, but because they are not meeting their partners needs.
In my situation - my W routinely volunteers: You treat me like gold
If your sex life is screwed up my take on this is you start with all the basics. If you believe you really are a good, loving and considerate partner then you start asking yourself some questions:
1. does my partner seem "overall" happy
2. do they have "overall" reasonable expectations for life
3. how do they treat ME, compared to the way they treat others
4. do THEY seem motivated to be a good partner for ME
If not you have a sincere conversation. You ask why they aren't prioritizing you. IF you get a bunch of lip service you turn the thermostat down. And down again. Because the brutal reality is that when someone doesn't respect your needs - AND FULLY EXPECTS YOU TO KEEP MEETING THEIRS - getting angry is futile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trenton
Mem, what you are changing is positive for the relationship and is obviously well in your range of normal behaviors as it comes naturally. You very well may attribute all your success to the helpful advice of Man Up philosophies but I believe focusing on the individual story and working to figure out the issues, with the person asking for help, provides quicker and more effective advice.
Let me try a different example. Husband is told to turn down the thermostat because he is doing a lot of household chores in the relationship as well as working and the men of these great forums have decided that this is too much for a man to do and the wife is taking advantage. Post after post reiterates..., "You are a doormat. Please check out the Man Up thread <insert link>. Then a small debate ensues about whether or not it's natural for men to become doormats. Isn't it natural for men to be providers? Is it the feminization of men that lead to this? <insert cliche about wanting and eating cake> <insert argument about feminists> Yadda Yadda.
Let's say Claire (the wife) really is having a hard time with her husband because she tells him how she feels but he doesn't listen to her. Her real anger and resentment comes from getting home each evening and sitting down to express herself but Buddy (husband) is always distracted by sports news and his love of carpentry that just so happens to coincide with the time Claire is unwinding and wanting to talk. He won't allow her time to talk and express herself but is ignorant that he even does this. As a result, even when Claire spells out the actual problem she has in the relationship that has created resentment and disconnect, Buddy can't hear the message and neither can we, because we think it's just another classic case of man up syndrome.
Buddy gets support in these forums and instantly begins thinking...I do everything for this woman and she is still shutting me out, unresponsive in the bedroom and unappreciative of all I provide for her. It's time to work on my happiness, what I want and turn the thermostat down so that my wife will want to have sex with me.
Claire has had it. She wants a divorce and has begun confiding in a male friend at work who is indeed very interested in what she has to say. She doesn't even notice Buddy turning the thermostat down because she could care less. An EA is forming with the man at work and Buddy is still at home confused as to why Claire isn't responding.
In this case, if we as forum listeners can't do anything but provide support and add fuel to Buddy's already burning fire. Perhaps Man Up would work and it might eventually lead to the reconnection of the Claire and Buddy but at what cost? Wouldn't asking Buddy the right questions, considering all factors and getting opinions of both men and women with varying perspectives help Buddy more?...and with more speed?
OK, so this is long. It outlines clearly my problem with generic offerings of help or the idea specifically that we are not snowflakes and that all relationships between men and women are the same. This is what I can't fathom.
So I'm in the minority. I get that. I don't think this means I should lose the chance to address it.
Trenton - I think you are making a valuable point. If I am correct what you are saying is that to be truly intimate with a loved one you must be authentic, reveal the true you. I agree fully with that. If you present a false self, a spouse falls in love with what they think you are. The real person invariably emerges and the deception is detected. I believe that and I think we all have problems revealing ourselves in new relationships but in time maybe 2 yrs it all comes out. that why i beleive that the decision to marry should not be considered before 2 yrs.
So where does changing behaviors come in to maintain sexual tension? Is it manipulation to grt what one wants or to main a mutually satisfying relationship. I'll use my relationship as an example - I would not be sexually attracted to my husband if he was p***y- wiped. Another words if he was not a little cool and independent and not able to show me anger when I do or say something or he acted in any way like he was fearful of losing me.
That for some reason keeps me attracted. Is he really like this? Maybe not, when we first became friends at 16 yo, he let me get away with a lot, I had the upper hand for a long time because he was very much in love, I was too but he was the one who worried about losing me because I got a lot of male attension.
We went though a period of conflict and he just changed from a loved besotted boy to a confident man. And I took notice and started to cater to him I did not want to lose him, I wanted no one else. He is still him but he knows what we need to keep things going. I know he did not change because he knew it would work - it was really by accident- he got weary of dealing with my s**t and withdrew probably to rest his emotions and noticed how I responsed. He was smart enough to do what was needed to keep me and I him.
I don't think I was manipulated I got what I wanted and needed - a dominant man who is confident in his drawing power. That would not work for all women, so each couple has to adjust to give the other what they needs to be confident and happy in the relationship. You reveal your real basic self of course but that self is not just the way you interact with your spouse. You action are manipulative but not to hide what you are but to be what you need to be.
If ones basic nature makes it impossible to ajust there interactions to keep the proper tension, then there may be an incompatibility. Posted via Mobile Device
Catherine, I get it. I just don't want it and I don't believe for a moment that because I am a woman I don't know what I want. My sense of deep connection in the bedroom with my husband comes from the fact that he knows every single aspect of me and when I lay down and look into his eyes our shared (known) insecurities slip away and there we are accepting one another and feeling pleasure that I've never felt with another. This authentic connection is exactly what I want.
So, if I get advice in these forums and I take it to heart I discuss it flat out with him and listen to what he thinks about it. If I am thinking about butt sex but I worry about pooping on him, I discuss it with him. Truth can't take away from shared intimacy if shared intimacy is authentic. I don't want to play a game.
T,
Let me give you two completely valid examples of the "authentic" me.
1. My W does something wrong. Not "I think it is wrong". Something that when it is calmly pointed out to her later she says "Oh - I am really, really, really sorry".
2. I feel like saying "I am SO in love with you"
If scenario 1 happens in a bad context (I am really tired, stressed, etc) I feel fury. Real - genuine - fury. This is "authentically" me with my bad temper. The actual words that flow through my head in the moment are not printable.
Externally it is a whole different world. What you would perceive is a brief flicker of anger on my face. If you aren't paying close attention you wouldn't even see it. And if you listen carefully you will hear me take one deep slow breath and let it out.
Later when I am calm - truly calm I will ask a question "Why did you do ....."? And quickly and easily we get to resolution. I will likely say "I didn't like that - next time it would be better if..."
Because that fury was not even close to "proportional" to the situation. So basically the "authentic" me in that situation without restraint is like a large 2 year old. Why should my W have to deal with that?
And if she asked me - were you "furious" in the moment. I would laugh and say "yep. I was already tense/edgy and that had a huge multiplier effect".
As for item number 2. My W KNOWS I love her. She knows I really, really love her. If she wants to hear it - she merely needs to say it - or ask it. Me saying it whenever I "feel" like it, is no different than me saying the crazy, ugly crap in my head when I "internally" lose my temper. Pure, childish self indulgence. And every bit as destructive as 1. Maybe more so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trenton
Catherine, I get it. I just don't want it and I don't believe for a moment that because I am a woman I don't know what I want. My sense of deep connection in the bedroom with my husband comes from the fact that he knows every single aspect of me and when I lay down and look into his eyes our shared (known) insecurities slip away and there we are accepting one another and feeling pleasure that I've never felt with another. This authentic connection is exactly what I want.
So, if I get advice in these forums and I take it to heart I discuss it flat out with him and listen to what he thinks about it. If I am thinking about butt sex but I worry about pooping on him, I discuss it with him. Truth can't take away from shared intimacy if shared intimacy is authentic. I don't want to play a game.
I like you Trenton....you seem to say what I want to say but, I don't have the cajones to post. Posted via Mobile Device
I wish you would post when you read something you diagree with. I have learned more from people who disagree with me on this forum. One persons view of things is so tied up in their limited experience especially when an experience has been painful. It really helps to hear differing points of view not once or by a few posters but many times from many posters.
Who cares who writes a post in disagreement, I'll bet there are 10 people who don't post who feel the same as you. Posted via Mobile Device
One persons view of things is so tied up in their limited experience especially when an experience has been painful. It really helps to hear differing points of view not once or by a few posters but many times from many posters.
Who cares who writes a post in disagreement, I'll bet there are 10 people who don't post who feel the same as you. Posted via Mobile Device
If the changes he makes are surface and contrived with only the idea that these behaviors will gain back his wife, it's manipulation.
And importantly ... it's dumb and won't work.
That man you describe? He isn't kidding his wife ... he's kidding himself.
C'mon Trenton ... virtually every interpersonal exchange between two parties is about manipulation. We only label it as such, when one party feels taken advantage of ...
Mem, what you are changing is positive for the relationship and is obviously well in your range of normal behaviors as it comes naturally. You very well may attribute all your success to the helpful advice of Man Up philosophies but I believe focusing on the individual story and working to figure out the issues, with the person asking for help, provides quicker and more effective advice.
Let me try a different example. Husband is told to turn down the thermostat because he is doing a lot of household chores in the relationship as well as working and the men of these great forums have decided that this is too much for a man to do and the wife is taking advantage. Post after post reiterates..., "You are a doormat. Please check out the Man Up thread <insert link>. Then a small debate ensues about whether or not it's natural for men to become doormats. Isn't it natural for men to be providers? Is it the feminization of men that lead to this? <insert cliche about wanting and eating cake> <insert argument about feminists> Yadda Yadda.
Let's say Claire (the wife) really is having a hard time with her husband because she tells him how she feels but he doesn't listen to her. Her real anger and resentment comes from getting home each evening and sitting down to express herself but Buddy (husband) is always distracted by sports news and his love of carpentry that just so happens to coincide with the time Claire is unwinding and wanting to talk. He won't allow her time to talk and express herself but is ignorant that he even does this. As a result, even when Claire spells out the actual problem she has in the relationship that has created resentment and disconnect, Buddy can't hear the message and neither can we, because we think it's just another classic case of man up syndrome.
Buddy gets support in these forums and instantly begins thinking...I do everything for this woman and she is still shutting me out, unresponsive in the bedroom and unappreciative of all I provide for her. It's time to work on my happiness, what I want and turn the thermostat down so that my wife will want to have sex with me.
Claire has had it. She wants a divorce and has begun confiding in a male friend at work who is indeed very interested in what she has to say. She doesn't even notice Buddy turning the thermostat down because she could care less. An EA is forming with the man at work and Buddy is still at home confused as to why Claire isn't responding.
In this case, if we as forum listeners can't do anything but provide support that creates entitlement and adds fuel to Buddy's already burning fire, what help do we really offer? Perhaps Man Up would work and it might eventually lead to the reconnection of the Claire and Buddy but at what cost? Wouldn't asking Buddy the right questions, considering all factors and getting opinions of both men and women with varying perspectives help Buddy more?...and with more speed?
OK, so this is long. It outlines clearly my problem with generic offerings of help or the idea specifically that we are not snowflakes and that all relationships between men and women are the same. This is what I can't fathom.
So I'm in the minority. I get that. I don't think this means I should lose the chance to address it.
First off, there's no cliche about cake eating. It happens. I know. Why would me SO think it was ok to have her affair, but get irate with me when I want a divorce? Why would she continuously rub her affair in my face, but the instant we separate and I go for coffee with another woman, she freaks on me, saying I don't care about her anymore. Then, when she really understands that I don care about her anymore, she wants back in. Then when she gets back in, she starts up her affair again, but keeps talking to me about things we need to do to the house, what we need to buy, what trips we should go on next. Hmmm, feels like cake eating to me.
Second, doing chores isn't about manning up. I did all the chores. I just didn't do them for sex. If I did, then THAT makes me a Pu$$y, and THAT is what is being told to men about manning up.
There's a reason this advice works 95 percent of the time. Because 95 percent of the time these affairs are all textbook behavior. How many posts have you read about...wife having an EA? Etc.etc.etc. And they ALL sound exactly the same? I think about 95 percent of the ones I have read follow the same script. Posted via Mobile Device
Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right 
