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The Men's Clubhouse Talk about life's dilemmas.

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Old 05-23-2011, 11:08 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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Obviously not as I understand what an idiom is but I find pleasure in the irony.
There is no irony. You assume that everyone is motivate like you. Why would you want a cake if you cannot eat it is a pretty simplistic view of the expression. I can imagine a situation very, very easily in which I would be challenged by two opposing choices.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:10 AM   #77 (permalink)
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No worries. I appreciate you feel a desire to defend me out of friendship but it doesn't bother me. I know the difference between thoughtful conversation and personal attacks that make no sense and don't apply so I can easily disregard them.
Not out of friendship, out of principal. This is a forum where people express their thoughts and feelings and what applies to them and should not be ridiculed for doing so.

Still interested to here from Mem or Deejo about if when did the same behavior as what is being talked about here, would it be viewed in such favorable light?
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:16 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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Good question. So here I am the domineering one married to a PA man. I've had to cool off and tone down my personality to get more love and attention from my husband. Does that make me manipulative? Controlling? Selfish?
I would say yes. Do you know anyone who is not selfish, controlling and manipulative? No need to pretend we're selfless people because I don't think that's even possible. I think you know I've done the same.

The difference for me (and no idea if this is the case for you) is that my husband knows each and every thing I'm doing and why I'm doing it. It's for us and our happiness together as partners and I expect the same from him. This is how one can be who they are and manipulate their world but do so while being completely with a partner and remain truly connected with their partner. Hence I keep talking about motive.

It's about motive and connection. I think it is strange to think that one can change their behaviors or learn a new skill that is intended to build a partnership/connection with another while leaving the other completely in the dark.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:17 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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It's about motive and connection. I think it is strange to think that one can change their behaviors or learn a new skill that is intended to build a partnership/connection with another while leaving the other completely in the dark.
I missed the part where leaving their partner in the dark was a necessary component. I cannot remember which person said it, but SOMEONE clearly stated that they TELL their wife what it is about.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:18 AM   #80 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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Good question. So here I am the domineering one married to a PA man. I've had to cool off and tone down my personality to get more love and attention from my husband. Does that make me manipulative? Controlling? Selfish?
Yup. Exactly like you were being for those years leading up to where you are now.

The difference is expectation and outcome.

'Manipulate' is about context. It isn't a negative word by default. The first reference from dictionary.com is the manner in which I use it:
1. Handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner.

We are simply referring to 'handling' a situation to garner positive outcomes for both parties.
I have no problem with Trenton's use of the word ... but the examples she references deal in winners and losers. 'Man Up' in relationship terms is intended to yield balance and desire.

Previously you were doing what felt 'right' ... and getting poor results in terms of the intimacy that you 'selfishly' desire. That's not a knock ... it's something we should all be selfish about. So now you are exerting a different type method of 'handling and controlling' how you respond. Nothing wrong with that.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:21 AM   #81 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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Yup. Exactly like you were being for those years leading up to where you are now.

The difference is expectation and outcome.

'Manipulate' is about context. It isn't a negative word by default. The first reference from dictionary.com is the manner in which I use it:
1. Handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner.
The definition you just used is the one for the use of the PHYSICAL, hand tool, automobile...

The definition that refers to behavior is decidedly negative.

Which brings us to ...

Quote:
We are simply referring to 'handling' a situation to garner positive outcomes for both parties.
While I am DO prefer the use of precise language, this is the bigger point.

Quote:
I have no problem with Trenton's use of the word ... but the examples she references deal in winners and losers. 'Man Up' in relationship terms is intended to yield balance and desire.
That is where I feel she misses the boat as well.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:22 AM   #82 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

I don't intentionally do ANYTHING to my W that I would not want done to me. And I start from that frame. I start from - what is a fair and constructive response to a situation I don't like.




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She wasn't calling you anything. She was saying that this behavior to HER is manipulative and pointed out that if women were to do this, it would be viewed as manipulative and not some other fancy word. Wouldn't it? Would the guys here like to have this happen to them or would they view it as domineering and controlling behavior?
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:23 AM   #83 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

All of the things discussed in this forum, e.g. the thermostat, fitness testing, manning up, etc, are simply useful metaphors for trying to understand the complexities of married life. They are not, IMO, definitive models for male-female interaction. They are, however, good tools to be applied to improve oneself, one's marriage, or to try to get a marriage back on track.

I don't really think I see that as manipulation. If I told my wife that some particular thing she did irritated me, and she stopped, would that be manipulation? She's changing her natural, personal behavior to illicit a particular response from me. That's not manipulation, not by my definition anyway.

If my wife told me that she had made changes to herself and how she interacts with me in order to take our marriage in a certain direction, would I feel manipulated? Of course not. I would honestly be very pleased. Pleased that my wife was working on improving herself, pleased that she understands that marriage is something that must be worked at and doesn't magically happen, and pleased that she's taking the time to give it so much thought and personal effort. I really *hate* people who b!tch about sh!t not improving yet never make any personal changes to get the reality they want. I would honestly see it as a huge sign of maturity.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:24 AM   #84 (permalink)
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I don't intentionally do ANYTHING to my W that I would not want done to me. And I start from that frame. I start from - what is a fair and constructive response to a situation I don't like.
That is part of the integrity part I was speaking of.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:24 AM   #85 (permalink)
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Tell me this. What does the word manipulation mean to you? If manipulation is manipulation, then there can be NO setting of personal boundaries at all.



Because you don't understand the word manipulation? I have described it in another post. Manipulation is different than setting personal boundaries on 2 specific ways

- motivation: the motivation to bring loving, peaceful, enriching change. Not motivated to punish or hurt
- integrity: Does not violate the integrity of either party.

The dictionary definition supports me somewhat

"to manage or influence skillfully, especially in an unfair manner: to manipulate people's feelings. "

Especially in an unfair manner.

Another one

1: exerting shrewd or devious influence especially for one's own advantage; "his manipulation of his friends was scandalous" [syn: {use}]

Shrewd or devious influence.

So manipulate does not mean to influence another. That is where the violation of integrity comes in.


Actually I find being precise about language is not semantics. I think it is useful to understanding.



You feel you have proven "the obvious". It sure is not obvious to me. Why would you expect someone to "admit" something that was far from obvious? Simply because your mind has made many logical leaps to get there is seems obvious to you?
I'm confused. What is your argument? Please explain to me why my conclusion is flawed and not obvious? How my use of manipulation used as defined is wrong in this case?

Arguing over the meaning of a word and its use is semantics. Is that not what we're doing?
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:24 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

My husband isn't completely in the dark. He knows I'm in therapy, knows I'm on this board, knows full well what I'm trying to accomplish and he supports that. Scratch that it's beyond support it's more like when is your next therapy appointment and encouraging me to get on the internet more.

He sees all of this as nothing but beneficial to HIM. So who is selfish again? LOL!!
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:25 AM   #87 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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It's about motive and connection. I think it is strange to think that one can change their behaviors or learn a new skill that is intended to build a partnership/connection with another while leaving the other completely in the dark.
You don't have to tell me that you intend to lose weight if I see that you are changing your diet, making time for the gym, and need to buy a new wardrobe.

Seeing you doing those things, having success, feeling better, and consequently, I feel better because you feel better ... do you think it appropriate that I call you disconnected, selfish and manipulative?

I like trying to understand you. I'm not trying to 'beat' you.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:25 AM   #88 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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I'm confused. What is your argument? Please explain to me why my conclusion is flawed and not obvious? How my use of manipulation used as defined is wrong in this case?

Arguing over the meaning of a word and its use is semantics. Is that not what we're doing?
It seems to me that you are likening unlike things. Then using the word to obfuscate and confuse yourself. You are saying that they are advocating manipulation when they are not. Actually understanding the meaning of the word is useful to conclude otherwise. You are seeing a male/female double standard that they are not advocating.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:28 AM   #89 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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I missed the part where leaving their partner in the dark was a necessary component. I cannot remember which person said it, but SOMEONE clearly stated that they TELL their wife what it is about.
Full disclosure is certainly not interwoven as part of the process. Someone clearly stated? I think it would be great if it was part of the process and this idea that women do not know what they want was erased entirely. I think you're purposely and unknowingly misleading yourself.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:31 AM   #90 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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Originally Posted by Mom6547 View Post
It seems to me that you are likening unlike things. Then using the word to obfuscate and confuse yourself. You are saying that they are advocating manipulation when they are not. Actually understanding the meaning of the word is useful to conclude otherwise. You are seeing a male/female double standard that they are not advocating.
Actually, that's not at all what I said. Re-read the thread where I bold a sentence so that you can talk to me without jumping to so many conclusions. It seems to me that you are defining me as is convenient for you and only want to argue with me for argument's sake.
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