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Old 05-23-2011, 10:33 AM   #91 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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Actually, that's not at all what I said. Re-read the thread where I bold a sentence so that you can talk to me without jumping to so many conclusions. It seems to me that you are defining me as is convenient for you and only want to argue with me for argument's sake.
That is actually a charge I would level at you. But not just me.
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:37 AM   #92 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

Mom,
OK - hmmm - I will make a distinction here because it is an important one.

When dealing with specific behaviors that I dislike I ALWAYS briefly point to the behavior. Being angry/cold/distant when your partner doesn't know why is abusive.

As for showing restraint in terms of how loving I am. Not having that conversation. WAY to weird. How do you tell someone that at your "natural" temperature they: feel anxious, take you for granted. Oh - and on top of that they lose their desire for you. I promised my father in law I would take good care of his daughter. She claims I have done an exceptional job.

If you had told me 22 years ago how important "restraint" was I would have nodded and told you that I struggle with my temper. I never, ever would have thought that the same restraint was just as important on the love front.


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I missed the part where leaving their partner in the dark was a necessary component. I cannot remember which person said it, but SOMEONE clearly stated that they TELL their wife what it is about.
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:38 AM   #93 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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You don't have to tell me that you intend to lose weight if I see that you are changing your diet, making time for the gym, and need to buy a new wardrobe.

Seeing you doing those things, having success, feeling better, and consequently, I feel better because you feel better ... do you think it appropriate that I call you disconnected, selfish and manipulative?

I like trying to understand you. I'm not trying to 'beat' you.
How do you know that would be the spouse's perception of a woman/man getting in shape? Might they not think that the spouse is getting in shape because they're having an affair or thinking about it? The point is, you don't know because their is a communication disconnect.
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:41 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

I've got nothing wrong with the idea of expressing likes, dislikes, and even boundaries.

What I have a problem with, is in attempts to manipulate by either gender. Once someone realizes they're being manipulated, resentment enters the picture.

Honest communication is far preferable to me.

Last edited by michzz; 05-23-2011 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:43 AM   #95 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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I've got nothing wrong with the idea of expressing likes, dislikes, and even boundaries.

What I have a problem with, is in attempts to manipulate by either gender. Once someone realizes they're being manipulated, resentment inters the picture.
I think THAT is half the definition of manipulation. THAT is the very crux of the difference between personal boundary setting and manipulation. You violate the others' integrity, they feel resentment.


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Honest communication is far preferable to me.
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:44 AM   #96 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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That is actually a charge I would level at you. But not just me.
Well, I would agree that I'm arguing for argument's sake. I find the different POV's interesting.
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:46 AM   #97 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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How do you know that would be the spouse's perception of a woman/man getting in shape? Might they not think that the spouse is getting in shape because they're having an affair or thinking about it? The point is, you don't know because their is a communication disconnect.
Ah ... so you DO just want to fight.

I used that analogy on purpose. Guess I manipulated you to see if you would give the response I thought you would. And you did ...
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:47 AM   #98 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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Ah ... so you DO just want to fight.

I used that analogy on purpose. Guess I manipulated you to see if you would give the response I thought you would. And you did ...
Rat bastard!
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:50 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

I will add, that I have a point even if no one is willing to read it. I do not like to think this is all fruitless. I really do think adding full disclosure and open communication would be important.
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:54 AM   #100 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

Mich,
Can you give us some examples of "bad" manipulation?




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Originally Posted by michzz View Post
I've got nothing wrong with the idea of expressing likes, dislikes, and even boundaries.

What I have a problem with, is in attempts to manipulate by either gender. Once someone realizes they're being manipulated, resentment enters the picture.

Honest communication is far preferable to me.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:00 AM   #101 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

I think my husband manipulates me by telling me clothes budget is unlimited if I wear size s!

He also manipulates me by telling me my cooking is delicious!


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Old 05-23-2011, 11:00 AM   #102 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

I've been guilty of bad manipulation. It goes like this I do A expecting B in response. If it works I become the controller and if it doesn't I get angry.

A healthy version is I'm changing my behavior because I want to and my goal is for my marriage to flourish not because I'm trying to control. I also have my spouses best interest at heart. In bad manipulation I'm only thinking of myself.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:01 AM   #103 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

Good conversation. I agree with the men and Trenton.

I think it all comes down to motives. If your main reason for "manning up" is to get your wife to have more sex with you, then you are manipulating her to get what you want. If you just want to be a better person and hope that in doing so your wife will have more sex with you, then it's not manipulation and more sex is just a happy byproduct of being a better person.

The bottom line is though, if you want more respect you have to act more respectable. If you want more sex, then you have to become sexier. I think that is the crux of what the men are saying here.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:04 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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I will add, that I have a point even if no one is willing to read it. I do not like to think this is all fruitless. I really do think adding full disclosure and open communication would be important.
Ok. Try it this way....

Your SO does something that you find extremely upsetting. You get upset. Go into a deep deep explanation of why your upset. BUT, your SO doesn't "get it". What do you do? You stay upset. Your temp goes down. Not through any "manipulation", but because your upset. Your SO sees this, because you've been walking around all day like this. So they start to reflect upon themselves, "maybe she/he is right? Maybe I WAS being an Ahole". A little more self reflection by the SO, and BINGO! "yes. I can see the point. I was being an a hole". Then they apologize. Big hugs and kisses. And the thermometer goes back up.

Why is this any different. Well, in fact, it's exactly the same thing. The only difference is with "manning up", you don't let it become personal..you keep your cool...and you don't walk around all day with a serious hate on. Why! Because your man enough to control your own behaviors.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:06 AM   #105 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why Deejo, MEM, and Wolf are right

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Mich,
Can you give us some examples of "bad" manipulation?
Any covert actions designed to change another's behavior.

For example, let's say one person in the marriage has gained some weight that the other finds unattractive and also disconcerting because of health risks.

Covert: Buys a gym membership for the other and tells them it is for the both of them, when in reality it is not.

Overt: Sits their spouse down and and tells them about their concerns and proposes a way to change (i.e., gym membership). Lends support.
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