I am on my manning up journey and want to tackle my biggest barrier in the marriage - hoping for some guidance on how to go about this. The pertinent background is this: we are in our early 40s, 2 kids in early grade school. When I met my wife, I was a different person, still recovering from an abusive childhood where I felt comfortable (in a sense) being yelled at and told what to do. The last couple years, I have been recovering, but it seems the more I recover, the worse my marriage gets.
My wife by her own admission is very controlling. This has been the one constant in the marriage. Unlike some other controlling folks, though, hers seems to be drawn from fear. I remember a time when I playfully took a very flimsy scarf and started to tie it around her wrist - she gave me a look that wasn't anger, but fear - almost like I would expect if I was threatening to stab her or something. It was weird and scary to see that reaction.
Anyway, we had a conversation the other day which sums up our control issues. (For background, when we were married, she insisted that she take control of the finances, because I was late with one payment somewhere along the line. Our credit scores are both optimal.) It went something like this:
Her: I just don't have time to do the things you seem to need me to do, and I want to see my family and friends more and I can't even do that.
Me: I do not understand - I offered to pay the checks every month so you could have time to invest in me and your family and friends.
Her: Last time you did the checks, there was a late payment.
Me: And when you took over, you had late payments. I still trust you.
Her: Yes, but those were because (blah blah blah excuse here). I don't know if I can trust you to do the checks.
Me: You are putting me in an impossible position. You are blaming me for your lack of free time but you are preventing me from assisting you so you have more free time.
Her: Well, you can do the checks then, but if there is even one late payment, there will be consequences. My credit rating is at stake. I'll decide what the consequences are tomorrow.
I muttered something like "forget that" and walked away.
There must be some way I can handle these conversations better, and help her to see the underlying problem that she has serious control/trust issues. Help!
Her: I just don't have time to do the things you seem to need me to do, and I want to see my family and friends more and I can't even do that.
You: Hmm... I don't want to give you so many things to do that you can't see your family and friends. In fact I didn't realize I was "giving you things to do". But anyway, how do you think we can fix this?
Please, forget the concept of logically "arguing" with your wife.
Her statement was not an invitation to logically solve her problem. It was an invitation to feel her momentary emotional pain and help her get out of it.
Her: Well, you can do the checks then, but if there is even one late payment, there will be consequences. My credit rating is at stake. I'll decide what the consequences are tomorrow.
You: Dear, I am going to do the bills. I am going to do my best and guess what I may miss a payment. You are not my mother and are not going to "give me a consequence". Am I clear?
You are not going to convince her that she has control issues. She has to come to this conclusion herself. What you have to do is not allow yourself to be controlled. Stand-up for yourself. If you have an opinion, express it. When she trys to argue with her, listen to her, repeat what she says, but don't let it get to you.
When she gives in, like letting you take care of the checks in your example. Just simply say, "Thank you," in a respectful manner. Don't let her controlling attitude allow you to be completely submissive to her every demand.
She is merely acting like a woman will act when her insecurities are not calmed.
Your example is full of "Fitness tests".
First step, learn to recognize them, then learn to master them.
Fitness tests are not logical, not rational, only emotional, so these tings that make no sense to you logically, and only irrational and beyound reason, that is merely fitness tests.
No sense in arguing or debating them (such as your checking account paying discussion), only need is to recognize them and maintain your calm, confidence, and humor.
Want to address the "real" issue?
Your woman WANTS to see you demonstrate rock solid confidence, such as insisting to handle the checking account (or whatever is the situation), and confidence is standing up TO her, and standing up FOR your self.
Do this over time, and you will see her respect and trust for you increase, and you will see her controlling and insecurity behaviors decrease.
Respect and insecurity, in a relationship they are inversely related.
Her: Well, you can do the checks then, but if there is even one late payment, there will be consequences. My credit rating is at stake. I'll decide what the consequences are tomorrow.
I muttered something like "forget that" and walked away.
There must be some way I can handle these conversations better, and help her to see the underlying problem that she has serious control/trust issues. Help!
Acorn, I can see from your posts that you have a very solid grasp of fairness and discernment, so recognize that my response to the section above is a bit of a gut reaction. Maybe its in the place where I go from just being a very determined sort to being pigheaded.
Honestly, I can't imagine myself responding differently, so I'll just say it. I would come back to her later and tell her that when she feels comfortable laying down consequences, she is effectively laying down punishment. Say "Our marriage covenent was a vow of partnership, and respect. I'll tell you what you really need to decide, instead of my punishment, or whether you deem me to be worthy of handling our finances. I want you to decide once and for all that this will be the last time you feel entitled to judge or punish me. I think we both knew that punishment was not a part of our marriage vows, so I hope this can be the last time we have this discussion. "
Recognize that the manning up journey is about recapturing your manhood, but not pushing her downward into a subservient role. She has, in a sense, elevated her role for a long time, so the process of recapturing might be painful.
Thanks for the replies, I have been thinking a lot about them.
I think I've been going about this all wrong. I have been trying to fix things, but in the complete wrong way. For instance, my wife gets on me when I am late, even when I have a very good reason. She is late a lot for things, and up until a couple years ago, I just shrugged it off and tried to just be happy she was home... but lately I've been trying to call her on it. Seemed the "fair" thing to do, but really I'm just trying to control her the same way she tries to control me. I don't really like that part of my new self, maybe this is the way out of that trap. Don't try to match her control, but de-escalate it; don't sweat it when she's late with reason, but if she gets on me, just convey I'm not interested in her efforts to control me and walk away.
I guess it begs the question, why do I want to live in an environment with all this testing and controlling going on? Maybe that's the advanced class... Thanks for the help.
Thanks for the replies, I have been thinking a lot about them.
I think I've been going about this all wrong. I have been trying to fix things, but in the complete wrong way. For instance, my wife gets on me when I am late, even when I have a very good reason. She is late a lot for things, and up until a couple years ago, I just shrugged it off and tried to just be happy she was home... but lately I've been trying to call her on it. Seemed the "fair" thing to do, but really I'm just trying to control her the same way she tries to control me. I don't really like that part of my new self, maybe this is the way out of that trap.
If you are forcing yourself too much, it will not be sincere. Matching a fitness test tit for tat, is much the same as trying to negotiate or reason with logic, it usually won't work, as you are still by some accord being provoked into a reaction, which is by defintion "failing" the tests.
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Don't try to match her control, but de-escalate it; don't sweat it when she's late with reason, but if she gets on me, just convey I'm not interested in her efforts to control me and walk away.
This is exactly correct 100 percent!
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I guess it begs the question, why do I want to live in an environment with all this testing and controlling going on? Maybe that's the advanced class... Thanks for the help.
Good question.
Wherever you find a man and woman in a sexual relatoinship, there will be testing of some sort.
The trick is, perhaps your point of "advanced class", is the tests in fact decrease a great deal once you communicate exactly like you said, you are not "interested in her efforts to control" you, and walk away.
And they REALLY decrease once you put into place the well honed skill of initiated your own displays of dominance, your own challenges TO her, instead of merely reacting to the ones FROM her.
I guess it begs the question, why do I want to live in an environment with all this testing and controlling going on? Maybe that's the advanced class... Thanks for the help.
Because then the tests will decrease very fast over time... once you will be a man, she will be a woman - right now you are acting like a woman yourself, scared of her and just say yes for whatever she is commanding you...
The secret to man up is to be happy with yourself, show that you are very secure about what you believe and do.
THIS IS what every woman is yearning for! A confident man! Not someone who will do what she is asking!
I have been trying to play the game and ace any fitness tests I have seen the last couple weeks. Seems like right now, I recognize them after they happen, but I have passed a few. I have also been working on being more assertive and she has said things like, "oooh decisive!" and "I like when you take charge." in a playful but honest manner.
My question is this... many times the fitness tests go a lot differently than what I read in the Clubhouse, and I don't know if I'm recognizing them wrong. For instance:
Wife: So, we'll have to rake these leaves, put them in bags, rent a pickup truck and take them away.
Me: I have a better idea, I'm going to rake the leaves into the woods.
Wife: I don't know if I can go for that. I like to walk in the woods and there are so many leaves, sometimes they really bother me.
Me: Leaves are going to fall in the woods whether we rake them in there or not...if you would like me to help rake, I'm raking them into the woods.
Wife: I guess I'll do it myself.
Me: Ok, fine.
or
Wife: Your (distant) nephew's birthday party is today. We'll have to leave by noon and we'll leave around 8pm.
Me: We've talked about this... spending 8 hours on an in-law trip for me is too long for my taste. How about we leave at 5pm as a compromise?
Wife: I hate leaving early. I'll just take the kids and go myself. Or you can take a separate car and come if you want.
So... while I have upgraded from accepting blind orders like "Don't put leaves in the woods" and such, the net result is that I'm still not generating the togetherness I'm looking for. It's great not to have to rake, nor have to go to these in-law visits, but now we are drifting further apart than before, and she seemingly is just fine with this. What am I doing wrong?
You are caught up in bargaining. Presuming that you want to be rational, in what you described, it sounds like all of your offers are compromises ... and she then simply gets to ignore your compromise.
Everything needn't be important to you. You don't have to bump back on everything. But you do need to bump back hard on what is important to you. No compromise. You set the limit, and that's it.
Which begs the next step. Decide what is important to you.
Learn to mirror. It gives you time to process what she is saying, and correspondingly, decide if you want to buy in, or burn it down.
For example:
Wife: So, we'll have to rake these leaves, put them in bags, rent a pickup truck and take them away.
You: So you are suggesting that 'we' need to rake, bag, and rent a vehicle in order to get rid of the leaves in the yard? Really? How about we rake the leaves into the woods, and then use the money you wanted to blow on renting a truck to go out to dinner?
Then take it from there. Her reason for not wanting to rake into the woods is not only selfish ... it's plain friggin silly.
As for the party? That one you should have bumped back on hard, presuming you had previously discussed it. Only reason she consistently challenges you, is because she knows she consistently wins. You need to get comfortable with throwing down with her. She needs to get as comfortable with 'No' as she has trained you to be.
Wife: Your (distant) nephew's birthday party is today. We'll have to leave by noon and we'll leave around 8pm.
You: We've talked about this... spending 8 hours on an in-law trip for me is too long for my taste. How about we leave at 5pm as a compromise?
Wife: I hate leaving early. I'll just take the kids and go myself. Or you can take a separate car and come if you want.
You: We'll take one car. We'll be leaving at 5. Up to you if you want to be part of that plan.
What are you doing wrong?
You are looking at the entire process backwards. She doesn't respect you right now. She is going to respect you LESS as you bump back in an effort to become the man she can respect. One of the possibilities is that she is only interested in you as an 'employee' and NOT a partner or lover. The only way you make that discovery is by taking these steps.
I'm not sure if this is the best approach, but I too had trouble figuring out the fitness tests until after the fact. Like anything, it takes practice.
However, since I was a rookie, I just got into the habit of the "eye roll".
Wife: so....we have to rake these leaves, bag them, rent a truck, and get them out of here.
Me: look at her with a subtle "are you fkn crazy?" look. Roll eyes. Turn. Leave house. Grab rake. Rake leaves into forest.
Maybe a marginal pass, at best. But until I got more experience, it was the safe bet.
After a while, I got a bit better. But found adding humor a bit tricky still during every incident....
Her: I hate leaving early. Take a separate car if you want.
Me: sure! Then I can blast the stereo! Hey kids? Want to drive up with dad? It will be way more fun in my car! And moms paying for gas!
Deejo has it spot on. It just takes practice. Especially with the humor aspect. Posted via Mobile Device
I don't think it was a fitness test, unless she was speaking to you in a condescending tone. She was expressing a need. Women do have a need for certain order around the house, and things like leaves on the ground, messes inside, garbage not going out weigh on their mind. And that weight blocks her mind from going to a sexual place. The true answer to this is for you to be "in charge" of taking care of the manly aspects of the home in such a way that it is done to a high standard, on time, and there is no need for her to tell you how to do it or remind you about it.
Now, when you look at how she responded to you about the party:
Wife: I hate leaving early. I'll just take the kids and go myself. Or you can take a separate car and come if you want.
This is a manned up answer. She states her reasoning and her solution. When you said "I have a better idea, I will rake the leaves into the woods", that is a bad answer as you did not state your reason and made you look weak, childish and lazy.
Without allowing yourself to get ordered around by your wife I will say that it's quite biologically based that wives want their home environment a certain way, and it's important that you are delivering that to her.
And, when you look at leaving early from the party.... Where is that coming from? She will be embarrassed to leave early and risk disapproval from the "pack" of women in the family.
I believe in manning up, but it's important to understand and deliver on the needs of your woman. It is good for her to express needs, but the way she does it has to be managed by you.
You are caught up in bargaining. Presuming that you want to be rational, in what you described, it sounds like all of your offers are compromises ... and she then simply gets to ignore your compromise.
I definitely see this.
Her: I want the leaves raked and I want them raked my way.
Me: Well how about I'll rake the leaves, but my way?
Her: No.
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Originally Posted by Deejo
Wife: I hate leaving early. I'll just take the kids and go myself. Or you can take a separate car and come if you want.
You: We'll take one car. We'll be leaving at 5. Up to you if you want to be part of that plan.
I will try this, but I don't have high hopes tbh. She has demonstrated that she would rather go without me than leave early.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deejo
What are you doing wrong? You are looking at the entire process backwards. She doesn't respect you right now. She is going to respect you LESS as you bump back in an effort to become the man she can respect. One of the possibilities is that she is only interested in you as an 'employee' and NOT a partner or lover. The only way you make that discovery is by taking these steps.
I think I understand this. My goal is to destabilize the current mechanics and try to build new ones. And your end comment really rings true. The more I have been stepping up my efforts around the house, the more I feel like we are a terrific team on all things chores, and it is making her very happy, but I still feel pretty empty as we just seem like a business relationship 90% of the time and parents the other 10%. Maybe that's the point of this.
Please help me focus (manning up) 
Thanks for the help.
