i just cannot believe that any married person who basically creates the sexless scenario would be so stupid as to not know what the potential consequences are. do people who go off sex really believe that their partner is ok with that and can adjust from what was to what is? is it a game, i think in many cases it is, has to be.
You'd be surprised how many withholding wives have tunnel vision around this. I've known friends in this situation: when the wife doesn't feel it's her problem, it's like talking to a wall. No acknowledgement of his need at all. At that point, all the guy can do is work on himself and hope. Or get out.
Athol has an excellent post at his blog today about the dilemma of choosing between morality and misery.
I agree with this also when a spouse emotionally neglects their spouse.
Excellent summary!
ITA. This sums up my marriage. I had an affair. He was gone emotionally. I felt like I was in a relationship all by myself. I hated coming home from work, I'd delay as much as I could. He refused MC the 100x I offered it, he refused to talk about problems "talking isn't going to help," he refused me the human basic decency of speaking words to me for sometimes, days/weeks at time. I would literally be crying in front of him, and he'd walk right by me. That is no way to live. Was it right to have an affair? No. Was I starved for any sort of affection/emotional connection? Yes. The day I moved out, he had not spoken a word to be in 1.5 month. Imagine a house full of silence. The silence was defeaning.
I will always regret my A. And I am not perfect either. I could have been a better wife. I could done a lot of things differently. I was always willing to meet him halfway. He was not. He cheated as well. But to this day, nothing he did hurt me more than his deliberate stonewalling/silence. It cut me like a knife in the middle of my heart.
Whoa. I just got really dramatic. LOL.
Yes Some People have no conscience no heart . Goes back to where they started in life ,a famly that also had no conscience
or abuse . This is why i say Children are always Colladeral Damage. They have Damage their whole life unless they realize what their doing and try and change it.Geo
your opinion about this subject is very narrow minded techinacaly you are correct in your statement that the cheater is responsible for their actions.
but if you go over to the coping with infadility board theres an awsome thread about why people cheat.
if you talk to a marriage counsler they will also tell you that the neglector/ignorer dose indead bare some of the responsibility for the events that lead up to someone cheating.
I've bolded for emphasis, but that's exactly what I've been saying all along, chilly. We're fully on the same page here. That doesn't equate to the neglectful spouse being responsible for the cheating spouse's decision to cheat, however.
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is it wrong to cheat because your spouce is neglecting/ignoring your pleas to make a better effort to their spouces needs. sure it is but you would be foolish to think that it can't happen to you.a lot of the people who cheat never in a million years thought they would.
Nothing I've sai is at odds with this, either. In fact, I've specifically stated that, undoubtedly, some who've cheated didn't set out specifically looking fir an affair. EA's, in particular, can have a slow build, but the very moment that someone makes a conscious decision to keep something from their spouse, that's a decision that's their responsibility, and theirs alone. And when we move into a realm of a PA, there's no way that any variation of "it just kinda happened" can stick, as all of the acts of a PA require a conscious decision on the cheater's part.
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you never know how your going to act until your in the situation yourself.
That's a fair statement. Wouldn't you also agree that it's a fair statement to say that how you CHOOSE to act in that situation is your responsibility and yours alone? Someone else may have contributed to an environment that leads you to that turning point, but choosing how to react is on you, not anyone else.
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its very easy to take the stance that the cheater is always the bad guy. but in my opinion the neglector/ignorer really has there head up their a$$ for not paying attention and realising the it takes 2 for a marriage to work.
Please note that I've never ascribed roles remotely like "bad guy" or "good guy" to either party in this discussion. No one is being absolved of responsibility for their own actions that contribute to the state of the relationship. Quite the opposite, in fact, as I'm holding individuals responsible for their own choices. I'd hoped that was clear when I said specifically that the most neglectful spouse on the planet is responsible for that neglect...but is not, resultantly, responsible for their partner's choice to respond to that neglect through cheating.
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its just the way it is and to burry your head in the sand and say they should have divorced first is just not realistic thinking satisticaly.
Of course, people make had decisions all the time. That's what we're talking about right now, after all. Because many people make a bad decision, it doesn't stop being a bad decision...it's just a sadly all too common bad decision.
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but hey if it works for you then great I'm more of a realist and know that it happens and will keep that in the back of my mind as a reminder to try my best to comunicate my needs and to listen to my wifes needs to try to insulate something like this happening in my marriage.
Did I say or even imply that such things don't happen? No. I merely disagreed with the notion that, if Spouse A is neglectful, which leads Spouse B to cheat, that Spouse A is directly responsible for Spouse B's decision. Spouse A is definitely responsible (to varying degrees, based on the specifics of the relationship in question) for the state of the marriage. Spouse A made his/her choices in that regard, and Spouse B is not responsible for those choices. Likewise, when Spouse B chooses to get those needs met by someone else, that's not Spouse A's decision, and thus, not Spouse A's responsibility. They both have to own their own individual actions. Posted via Mobile Device
Yes Some People have no conscience no heart . Goes back to where they started in life ,a famly that also had no conscience
or abuse . This is why i say Children are always Colladeral Damage. They have Damage their whole life unless they realize what their doing and try and change it.Geo
I don't understand who you are talking about? The ones without a conscience? Explain.
Just got back from visiting with the family, I haven't seen them for about three months. when we were together it felt great going about our lives like its just normal. because were in the same place and the need for her to choice to be with me here is removed. Now im back and before I went back home I felt like I had a better hold on things. I bought some new clothes started working out a little. Even started to spoon feed myself a little more confidence. While I was there I casually brought up being forced to cheat, and she said no one is forced its a choice. The same as all of you are saying. Its hard to for me to swallow another year of telephone conversations. while I watch all my friends have relationships and while I want a relationship. Its hard to have to rely on friends to help me when I married someone who should be able to help me with something other then a good pep talk. It makes me feel like a doormat honestly because I cant make things go in the direction that I want them to go in. I told her I love her, I like her and I want to be with her, but I don't want this relationship any more. If you have ever gone thru this when you got to the point where you couldn't take being alone any more but you didn't want a divorce what did you do.
There is alot of talk about the Cheating not being known, it is the HIDING, the cheated on spouse's being "in the dark", unable to make a choice- the unfairness of this. I agree! Secrets OF THIS TYPE have NO place in a marital union, even if it is in the gutter at the time. When one starts sliding down the secrecy slide in a marriage, only TROUBLE comes from it.
Even if being brutally honest causes terribly HURT feelings and Emotional FIGHTS to overcome with the need of heart wrenching forgiveness, it is more commendable & should be used. I would point to MEM's example, I have no problem with how he handles his marriage & sex life & what he says to his wife- after her words to him. They put it out there -they allow each other to make thier own decisions ....
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Sexual deceit is likely the most common type of blatant chronic deception/lying in modern American marriages.
I really had no idea exactly where my W was mentally/emotionally the night she said to me "out of the blue", that and this is a direct quote: "she could not imagine having to have sex with me for another 15-20 years".
I thought she liked having sex with me. Really. And we have always had what "for me" was a good/great sex life. So I was astonished by her remarks. I slept on it for a night and then in the interest of fairness I was totally honest with her. Told her celibacy was a non-starter for me. Preserving the marriage was my primary goal. Pressuring her for sex was not acceptable to me either. So I told her I would find a playmate and remove all pressure for her to have sex with me.
I have a whole long thread on this. The summary of this "event" was that she realized her desire for me to NOT have sexual contact with another woman was FAR greater than her desire NOT to have sex with me. But that was her decision to make, not mine.
This was neither easy nor painless for either of us. Then again I have a very simple view of this. It is not acceptable for either person to say "I don't want you but no one else can have you".
Tough but HONORABLE none the less.
But really, when you get down to it , are these unknowing unwilling to open the legs spouses that stupid-- I am with OkeyDokie when he said this
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I just cannot believe that any married person who basically creates the sexless scenario would be so stupid as to not know what the potential consequences are. do people who go off sex really believe that their partner is ok with that
Yes, they are stupid, foolish and blind if they think so. I will teach my daughter this well -long before she gets married. To please her man or if she takes this for granted --to NOT be freaked when he is looking elsewhere, cause IT HAPPENS, and she is NOT immune -no matter how beautiful she is or a good mother-- to be repulsed by his touch is to destroy her marraige. Too many, unfortunetely, fall into hiding/affairs fearing what will be lost in a divorce.
We need to all be taught outright before we marry how utterly devestating, emotionally crushing it is to withhold, reject, trample our Lovers desires, never showing we need them, want them, if we start treating affection like a plague.....
.....and what THIS does to the others psyche whom they vowed to love & cherish till death..... how it infact renders these men (& women) near hopeless, WEAK, depressive, left only to fantasize what once was -or could be, lonliness grows to such a degree, some would welcome ending it all -would be easier, others become NUMB to life...
left yearning desperately for touch, it will get to the point of anyone's touch, a man thirsting in the desert, in need of some validation he is worth something-cause he isn't worth sh** at home, then throw in the allure of the opposite sex hottie at work showing some kindness, listening to his pain , attention that brightens his day, something he has been missing in months , 2 cravers meet, hanging by a thread - after all we ARE only HUMAN .........Ok so you resist, you are above human, more saintly than the rest...
BUT....
One thing you will not be is a happy Saint......you will be angry at home, likely take it out on the kids, angry at work, grow to hate your spouse, bitter, what is self esteem , resentment filled , envious of others who are gettin' some --to the detriment of your own selves. So being faithful in the face of THAT -how worthy is it , just to say you are better than the next guy who fell ?
So sometimes being faithful = utterly miserable. Meanwhile your spouse doesn't give a da** how faithful you have been!! But yet, they still ain't giving it up - what a sacrifice it has become. All for integrity. This is where I think ANYONE is crazy to stay. Insane infact.
The only thing I would personally fault a cheater for (under those circumstances) - is the hiding, the lying, the secrecy of it. I would terribly sympathize with his or her plight.
As for me, I will honestly say, if I found myself in this type of marriage, I would likley fall --the only thing that saves me is this...lying & hiding is NOT something I do .... I would cause so much VERBAL HELL about my needs not being met-when this started to happen, HE would undoubably KNOW where I was headed - no secrets there! I'd spell it out -just like MEM.
And clearly , he would have a CHOICE to leave me, divorce me, throw me out, if he was not willing to step it up & we work it out to where we was both happy. I would not reduce myself to a miserable celibate saint.
But Yeah, everyone thinks it can't happen to them, what a joke, preach it to the choir. IF they have no sex drive -SURE -hell that would be EASY! ... I agree with Chilly Morn terribly here :
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but if you go over to the coping with infadility board theres an awsome thread about why people cheat.
if you talk to a marriage counsler they will also tell you that the neglector/ignorer dose indead bare some of the responsibility for the events that lead up to someone cheating.
is it wrong to cheat because your spouce is neglecting/ignoring your pleas to make a better effort to their spouces needs. sure it is but you would be foolish to think that it can't happen to you.a lot of the people who cheat never in a million years thought they would.
you never know how your going to act until your in the situation yourself.
and each situation is different. how many kids do you have,how old are they ,how much money are you going to loss,who get the dog and house ,
its very easy to take the stance that the cheater is always the bad guy. but in my opinion the neglector/ignorer really has there head up their a$$ for not paying attention and realising the it takes 2 for a marriage to work.
some people just ani't strong enough or their fed up enough or at some point they even might hope to get caught so it finally ends their marriage but a wise person would want to know that this happens a lot and to portect yourself from it you should be a good partner or this might happen to you.
its just the way it is and to burry your head in the sand and say they should have divorced first is just not realistic thinking statistically.
Who is really worse off, the ones who fall or the ones who stay in a miserable existence wasting their best years ? At least if you fall, you may hit the jackpot & fall with someone who might be a GOOD MATCH (it happens) -so you can leave the loveless ungiving, unintimate, cold as ice ass you are with and have wasted X amount of years of your life.
Again, I don't feel cheating is right, but I can still have sympathy for those who fall into it, given their particular circumstances, they are simply NOT all the same - 2 sides to every story, always.
SA,
Thank you for your kind words. I do believe it is better to be straight with each other. I also think you can be direct with someone and at the same time project that you care and love them and want to work it out.
I ABSOLUTELY believe that it is more and more common for the LD spouse to evade, lie and deny. And sometimes the only way the HD spouse can get the truth is to discuss consequences.
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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous
There is alot of talk about the Cheating not being known, it is the HIDING, the cheated on spouse's being "in the dark", unable to make a choice- the unfairness of this. I agree! Secrets OF THIS TYPE have NO place in a marital union, even if it is in the gutter at the time. When one starts sliding down the secrecy slide in a marriage, only TROUBLE comes from it.
Even if being brutally honest causes terribly HURT feelings and Emotional FIGHTS to overcome with the need of heart wrenching forgiveness, it is more commendable & should be used. I would point to MEM's example, I have no problem with how he handles his marriage & sex life & what he says to his wife- after her words to him. They put it out there -they allow each other to make thier own decisions ....
Tough but HONORABLE none the less.
But really, when you get down to it , are these unknowing unwilling to open the legs spouses that stupid-- I am with OkeyDokie when he said this
Yes, they are stupid, foolish and blind if they think so. I will teach my daughter this well -long before she gets married. To please her man or if she takes this for granted --to NOT be freaked when he is looking elsewhere, cause IT HAPPENS, and she is NOT immune -no matter how beautiful she is or a good mother-- to be repulsed by his touch is to destroy her marraige. Too many, unfortunetely, fall into hiding/affairs fearing what will be lost in a divorce.
We need to all be taught outright before we marry how utterly devestating, emotionally crushing it is to withhold, reject, trample our Lovers desires, never showing we need them, want them, if we start treating affection like a plague.....
.....and what THIS does to the others psyche whom they vowed to love & cherish till death..... how it infact renders these men (& women) near hopeless, WEAK, depressive, left only to fantasize what once was -or could be, lonliness grows to such a degree, some would welcome ending it all -would be easier, others become NUMB to life...
left yearning desperately for touch, it will get to the point of anyone's touch, a man thirsting in the desert, in need of some validation he is worth something-cause he isn't worth sh** at home, then throw in the allure of the opposite sex hottie at work showing some kindness, listening to his pain , attention that brightens his day, something he has been missing in months , 2 cravers meet, hanging by a thread - after all we ARE only HUMAN .........Ok so you resist, you are above human, more saintly than the rest...
BUT....
One thing you will not be is a happy Saint......you will be angry at home, likely take it out on the kids, angry at work, grow to hate your spouse, bitter, what is self esteem , resentment filled , envious of others who are gettin' some --to the detriment of your own selves. So being faithful in the face of THAT -how worthy is it , just to say you are better than the next guy who fell ?
So sometimes being faithful = utterly miserable. Meanwhile your spouse doesn't give a da** how faithful you have been!! But yet, they still ain't giving it up - what a sacrifice it has become. All for integrity. This is where I think ANYONE is crazy to stay. Insane infact.
The only thing I would personally fault a cheater for (under those circumstances) - is the hiding, the lying, the secrecy of it. I would terribly sympathize with his or her plight.
As for me, I will honestly say, if I found myself in this type of marriage, I would likley fall --the only thing that saves me is this...lying & hiding is NOT something I do .... I would cause so much VERBAL HELL about my needs not being met-when this started to happen, HE would undoubably KNOW where I was headed - no secrets there! I'd spell it out -just like MEM.
And clearly , he would have a CHOICE to leave me, divorce me, throw me out, if he was not willing to step it up & we work it out to where we was both happy. I would not reduce myself to a miserable saint.
But Yeah, everyone thinks it can't happen to them, what a joke, preach it to the choir. IF they have no sex drive -SURE -hell that would be EASY! ... I agree with Chilly Morn terribly here :
Who is really worse off, the ones who fall or the ones who stay in a miserable existence wasting their best years ? At least if you fall, you may hit the jackpot & fall with someone who might be a GOOD MATCH (it happens) -so you can leave the loveless ungiving, unintimate, cold as ice ass you are with and have wasted X amount of years of your life.
Again, I don't feel cheating is right, but I can still have sympathy for those who fall into it, given their particular circumstances, they are simply NOT all the same - 2 sides to every story, always.
People who cheat DO NOT HAVE A CONSCIENCE. When children are involved especially . Better find an alternative way of getting your jollies for the childrens sake. This is what i mean.
If I beat my wife with a ball bat, I'm not forcing her to call the police but that would be the logical and predictable consequence of my actions. It would presumptuous bordering on insanity for me to believe I could daily beat her but never face any adverse consequences.
If I beat my wife with a ball bat, I'm not forcing her to call the police but that would be the logical and predictable consequence of my actions. It would presumptuous bordering on insanity for me to believe I could daily beat her but never face any adverse consequences.
theres an analogy that drives my point home quite nicely
If I beat my wife with a ball bat, I'm not forcing her to call the police but that would be the logical and predictable consequence of my actions. It would presumptuous bordering on insanity for me to believe I could daily beat her but never face any adverse consequences.
To proceed with this analogy, her calling the police would be equivalent to separation/divorce...it's the above-board means of addressing the issue. Now, if, instead, she got someone to beat the tar out of you with a baseball bat, that's a little more equivalent to an affair. While it may not be an unexpected or surprising outcome, you're not responsible for her choice to respond by taking the low road instead of the high road. Posted via Mobile Device
A guy beating me with a ball bat would damage me. Someone else getting something I clearly didn't want doesn't harm me. If I toss something in the trash repeatedly, it's clear it's not mine. I don't want it. I have no interest in it. I have surrendered all claims. I have no right to gripe if someone else thinks my trash is their treasure.
Re: do you think some women force a man to cheat 
