Since joining this site, I've avoided bringing up a topic of interest about Nice Guys, largely because it is more of a speculation than anything. A recent humorous thread about unmanly fears finally helped me to put it out there. When AFEH replied to this thread with his approach to facing fears, I bet he never imagined that it fit into a popular native american story. It will not hurt my feelings at all if others disagree.
My grandmother was native american. I lived with her off and on throughout my childhood, and she was very concerned about us grandkids because we were mixed ancestry, because she married outside of her people. She wanted us to respect the ways of her ancestors. She was Creek, but some of you may know that many Creek were absorbed into Cherokee, so she often told a Cherokee story about being a man.
According to the story, every man has two wolf spirits living within. One, a black wolf, represents fear, jealousy and pride, while the other, a healthy gray wolf, represents purity of spirit and wisdom. The two fight for control of the man. The one that wins is the one we feed. It defines us.
My grandmother's point was that the way to be a man was to only feed the good wolf spirit within. If we fear something enough that it causes us to become passive, then we feed the other wolf, and become less of a man.
The whole point of this is a focus on self-examination, building confidence in ourself, and facing our fears.
She probably had no concept of an alpha guy versus beta guy. A real man, to her, was just one who faced the issues before him with courage. He is always watchful of feeding the fear spirit within, and avoids this.
How does it relate to being a nice guy?
I think its easy to ask why being a nice guy can be such a bad thing. They are nice. Compassionate, and full of empathy. Much better than the alpha jerks who care only about sex. But is this the primary driver for most nice guys? I don't think that this is how some nice guys actually live. Some pretend to demonstrate such virtues. For example, it is a Nice-Guy trait to appear respectful when he refuses to argue with his wife. But maybe he’s just afraid of potential conflict. A married Nice Guy may keep his sexual desires to himself, appearing to be considerate to his wife’s fatigue at the end of the day. But realistically, it isn’t about niceness at all - it is because he fears her potential rejection. He may do the bulk of the chores, thinking that this will prevent any conflict that may come from other areas.
Nice Guys aren’t really nice, in many instances. What motivates them isn’t virtue but fear and the passivity it creates. If an marital issue comes up, the spirit of fear is fed, and delaying tactics set in. Fear creates passivity in other areas of their life, like finances, issues with children, etc.
This creates problems for Nice Guy marriages. Mainly, they aren’t truthful with what they think, feel, or do. You see the resentment over the wife's lack of desire for sex, or lack of respect.
If the wife cheats, fear of being alone possibly even drives some to claim to the world that their love is so great, pure, that they just want her to come home and put the issue behind them.
My only point with this is to tie it into the marriage. I don't think women want an alpha guy. Maybe they just want a guy who rarely feeds the wolf spirit of fear. Someone who boldly adresses their fears, with confidence. Maybe this is why some women wonder why they find their 'nice guy' husbands to be very attractive. Looking into the heart of their husband, they see that he starves the wolf spirit of fear, but just doesn't make a big deal about it. He's neither alpha or beta.
Hey, at the very least, it is a different perspective. The intention is not to offend. I'm just hoping that others might offer their own perspective to the idea that fear may be a primary driver for some nice guys.
In many of the photos of my son, my wife and I made it a point to have the photographer insert an image of a lone wolf in the background, strong and well fed. No black wolves allowed.
Nice Guys aren’t really nice, in many instances. What motivates them isn’t virtue but fear and the passivity it creates. If an marital issue comes up, the spirit of fear is fed, and delaying tactics set in. Fear creates passivity in other areas of their life, like finances, issues with children, etc.
This creates problems for Nice Guy marriages. Mainly, they aren’t truthful with what they think, feel, or do. You see the resentment over the wife's lack of desire for sex, or lack of respect.
If the wife cheats, fear of being alone possibly even drives some to claim to the world that their love is so great, pure, that they just want her to come home and put the issue behind them.
My only point with this is to tie it into the marriage. I don't think women want an alpha guy. Maybe they just want a guy who rarely feeds the wolf spirit of fear. Someone who boldly adresses their fears, with confidence. Maybe this is why some women wonder why they find their 'nice guy' husbands to be very attractive. Looking into the heart of their husband, they see that he starves the wolf spirit of fear, but just doesn't make a big deal about it. He's neither alpha or beta.
Hey, at the very least, it is a different perspective. The intention is not to offend. I'm just hoping that others might offer their own perspective to the idea that fear may be a primary driver for some nice guys.
In many of the photos of my son, my wife and I made it a point to have the photographer insert an image of a lone wolf in the background, strong and well fed. No black wolves allowed.
Your observation that 'Nice Guys' aren't actually nice, is right on the money.
The book 'No More Mr. Nice Guy' basically says the same thing.
The story of the wolf spirits is a concise and elegant summary of what the book outlines in several hundred pages.
I truly thought that I was behaving in a manner that would make my partner love me more ... therefore it was difficult to see past the entirely contradictory world view that what I was doing was actually detrimental to myself and the relationship.
There are guys out there with very big hearts. Nothing wrong with that. But ... constantly making that big heart available for anyone to take advantage of, or stomp all over, is neither admirable, smart, nor practical.
Yeah. But I bet that grey wolf didn't see any big a$$ beetles in his journey. If he did, he'd invite the black wolf out for a beer and say....'Holy fk! I can totally see your point now! Those things are just wrong!" Posted via Mobile Device
Maybe this is why some women wonder why they find their 'nice guy' husbands to be very attractive. Looking into the heart of their husband, they see that he starves the wolf spirit of fear, but just doesn't make a big deal about it. He's neither alpha or beta.
What an indepth perspective! And yes, FEAR is huge in the role of the "classic " nice guy who is led to believe his being nice, compliant, a good boy, will get him more of what he wants from women, but in the meantime he appears wish washy, Boring with no lead, no edge, no real direction, where did our leader go?
Even the more aggressive temperement men can fall into these Nice Guy tendencies -and all kinds of unwholesome things can result from that. Blustering Anger hidden, possible explosion waiting to happen, and resentment building.
My husband has always been more of the genuine NICER passive NICE guys-never the aggressive type. He too fell into a decent amount of these things -he was definitely led by fear of rejection from me. Which from my perscective -was so silly.
I was very easy to be had- when he showed any REAL driving effort. His effort was like a "weak hand shake" to me back then, not the most attractive thing going. I would just as soon pick up a book to read in comparison.
Now that we have talked & talked & talked about our past mistakes in these things, he no longer worries at all about how I may react, what I may think, being vulnerable with me, we are well beyond this. I DO see him more confident now with who he is before me. I was very angry at him when I learned all this "hiding" he was doing.
Being assertive and speaking up about our wants & needs, oh the importance!!
The black wolf has been starved for some time now -with me, He is also the type who would NEVER make a big deal -or ego out of anything, he would throw Alpha to the wind, he has no care about it at all, doesn't evaluate himself on these terms. I think his SHEER uncaring about it -is somehow Alpha in it's own way . He has no desire to change who he is, Happy in his own skin.
What an indepth perspective! And yes, FEAR is huge in the role of the "classic " nice guy who is led to believe his being nice, compliant, a good boy, will get him more of what he wants from women, but in the meantime he appears wish washy, Boring with no lead, no edge, no real direction, where did our leader go?
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Thanks, SA. Frankly, I'm glad that a few see what I was trying to convey. From my own perspective, having participated in a local professor's study on alpha types outside the stereotypical views on dating, it just seemed that many people make broad assumptions of both types of men, alpha and nice guys. In many cases, I think its more about how we face fear and passivity that really should distinguish us.
Its hard not to be around the culture of my grandmother without being at least a little affected. She scolded me for being a kid who walked with one foot in each world, yet it seems that whenever I go through a crisis in my life, I aways dream of her homestead, where things were simpler, yet more profound. Where we believed that our bravery, integrity, compassion, and respect for others were the only tools that we took with us when we died.
I think your Grandmother's culture sounds pretty damn cool and I think it would be a darn shame to NOT walk half in it and relay these types of stories & beliefs as you go through life. Good for you and for you kids that hopefully will carry on this tradition of values -explained just as you did here.
I also thought that was pretty cool how you & your wife always would have a lone wolf (but not black) in the background of all of your son's photo's - a story to live on for generations. Some day his grandson will be asking "why all those wolfs Grandpa?" and he will sit & share YOUR stories handed down..... makes me think of the "Lion King" somehow.
It’s a timely post as I’m to start my divorce proceedings this month but I am in a dilemma. The black wolf in me wants to betray and hurt my stbxw and younger son to the same extent that they’ve hurt and betrayed me. The grey wolf says no don’t do that. The grey wolf says you had very many very good years with your wife, think on those good years. He also says yes your son has betrayed you and is lost to you. But he is still your son. You watched his birth and helped his mother. You did your very best with him but things went very wrong somewhere (I’m pretty certain the wacky bacci has something to do with it). Years ago you knew what was happening and why it was happening but you didn’t have it within your power or knowledge to prevent what has come to pass no matter how hard you tried.
The black wolf whispers in my ear get the b*stards, they think you are going to anyway so you may just as well do it. And the grey wolf replys why change now, why change your lifetime values, beliefs and behaviour and after all this time become like they have become. Stay strong and stay true to yourself.
The black wolf says do unto others as they do unto you and the grey wolf replys do unto others as you would have done unto you.
I know the grey wolf is going to win but the black wolf he’s always there.
Listen to the grey wolf; be an example to your son of what a good man is. He won't thank you now, but in the future he will tell you that he appreciated your courage in the face of negative emotions.
It’s a timely post as I’m to start my divorce proceedings this month but I am in a dilemma. The black wolf in me wants to betray and hurt my stbxw and younger son to the same extent that they’ve hurt and betrayed me. The grey wolf says no don’t do that. The grey wolf says you had very many very good years with your wife, think on those good years. He also says yes your son has betrayed you and is lost to you. But he is still your son. You watched his birth and helped his mother. You did your very best with him but things went very wrong somewhere (I’m pretty certain the wacky bacci has something to do with it). Years ago you knew what was happening and why it was happening but you didn’t have it within your power or knowledge to prevent what has come to pass no matter how hard you tried.
The black wolf whispers in my ear get the b*stards, they think you are going to anyway so you may just as well do it. And the grey wolf replys why change now, why change your lifetime values, beliefs and behaviour and after all this time become like they have become. Stay strong and stay true to yourself.
The black wolf says do unto others as they do unto you and the grey wolf replys do unto others as you would have done unto you.
I know the grey wolf is going to win but the black wolf he’s always there.
Sadly, the children's tale won't really help much here, because the inner wolves will consume each other. But she did tell us that when we allow others to define our actions through the hurt they have inflicted, we carry the blackness of their spirit within ours. I'm rapidly running out of wise proverbs she taught us because most of them were mundane things about foolish boys who played in the rain instead of doing their chores, and got struck by lightening. Or foolish boys who gorged themselves on the figs in the pantry, never realizing that the things that go down with joy often come out with pain and the squirts.
Listen to the grey wolf; be an example to your son of what a good man is. He won't thank you now, but in the future he will tell you that he appreciated your courage in the face of negative emotions.
Thanks for your kind thoughts but he doesn’t know what I know about his betrayal, same for my wife. I snooped. I will more than likely tell them both what I know in the hope that they will “see themselves” and just how despicable they both became. I wont tell them they’re despicable, it jumps out from the communications between the two of them. My wife after 42 years with me and my son at the age of 35. It really is quite unbelievable. Thing is I can’t for the life of me see what lessons these things are trying to teach me. Good husband, good father and after nearly half a century I get crap. But why?
Sadly, the children's tale won't really help much here, because the inner wolves will consume each other. But she did tell us that when we allow others to define our actions through the hurt they have inflicted, we carry the blackness of their spirit within ours. I'm rapidly running out of wise proverbs she taught us because most of them were mundane things about foolish boys who played in the rain instead of doing their chores, and got struck by lightening. Or foolish boys who gorged themselves on the figs in the pantry, never realizing that the things that go down with joy often come out with pain and the squirts.
Don’t know if I agree with the inner wolves consuming each other or not. That would mean there’s just stability, no growth, no regression. No conflict. No movement. It’s what being dead is like I imagine. That sort of thing only happens when a person is fully individuated, but nobody is ever fully individuated. People will always have a Shadow, a Shadow they can’t see but others can. The only time the shadow no longer exists is when the person is dead. But even then our memory of them lingers on and so they still live on, like your Grandmother.
But she did tell us that when we allow others to define our actions through the hurt they have inflicted, we carry the blackness of their spirit within ours.
That is so very true. If we let that happen we “become them”.
My grandmother was native american. I lived with her off and on throughout my childhood, and she was very concerned about us grandkids because we were mixed ancestry, because she married outside of her people.
This bit resonates very strongly. My dad's family are Romani, and he was the first to "marry out". My granpa and nanna were very concerned about me and my brother, being mixed bloods. They always reckoned that as Didikoi we were going to get hit from both sides!
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She wanted us to respect the ways of her ancestors. She was Creek, but some of you may know that many Creek were absorbed into Cherokee, so she often told a Cherokee story about being a man.
I don't know much about Native Americans - was that when loads of tribes got stuffed into the "Indian Territories"? My old granpa had a wealth of stories - nothing really like yours, but lots about "being a man", and what being a Romani man meant. I can't really recall a lot of details, being as he died when I was a little kid, but there was a lot about being straight up, and about not letting fear rule you.
Well, lets face it - there ain't much more alpha than a Romani Rye, is there?
This bit resonates very strongly. My dad's family are Romani, and he was the first to "marry out". My granpa and nanna were very concerned about me and my brother, being mixed bloods. They always reckoned that as Didikoi we were going to get hit from both sides!
I don't know much about Native Americans - was that when loads of tribes got stuffed into the "Indian Territories"? My old granpa had a wealth of stories - nothing really like yours, but lots about "being a man", and what being a Romani man meant. I can't really recall a lot of details, being as he died when I was a little kid, but there was a lot about being straight up, and about not letting fear rule you.
Well, lets face it - there ain't much more alpha than a Romani Rye, is there?
Its great to hear that the story resonates with some others. Since Creek, named so by the settlers due to the proximity to the olcmulgee River, were in the location or the original colonies, they were some of the first to be relocated. I'm hesitant to speak too much because I do not want to offend those who actually lived within the communities. My grandmother's mother married an Irish decendent after she was born and her father died, so she lived within the same area as her ancestors, which now has almost no memory of the previous people who once lived there.
Fear and Nice Guys 
