Well-it's difficult when you learn that someone has resented you for stuff in the past that you don't remember or even didn't know about. How can you correct something if you don't know about it?
I said to my WS, in regards to communication one time, that I didn't understand why she seemed to think that I was some kind of insensitive ogre that she couldn't share with. Her deadpan reponse was that one time, years ago, she brought to me a problem at work, and I snapped at her about it.
We're all human, and we make mistakes... I instantly apologized but I happened to remember the incident she brought up and calmly pointed out that the reason that she got snapped at in that particular instance is that SHE was the one that was being very, very insensitive; she didn't realize (I guess) that the problem she had come to complain to me about was something where she didn't have enough to do at her job (we worked at the same place, in different departments, and she had been recently transferred/semi-promoted out of my dep't), while I was swamped over doing the work that she herself had used to do (picking up the slack in her absence, in other words). Since we didn't hash it out initially, the festering problem laid there dormant for both of us.
What if I were to ask her to share with me the things that I have done in the past that were hurtful. Once she tells me what it is I can ask her if she would be willing to forgive. If she says yes then I will gladly apologies, if she says no, I don't really see the point.
Does that seem fair? Is it manipulative or controlling?
There's a question here about whether she (and you) want to live in the past or move onto the future (I think we know your answer). Discussing the past as a means to come to terms with it, understand it, apologize/forgive is important to moving forward. Resentment stems from holding onto past wrongs. Is she willing to move forward?
With my wife, I have taken the tact of asking if past issues will continue to be held over my head like a threatening ax or if we can move past them. I told her that if I have to keep hearing about what I did XX years ago, with no movement toward resolution but rather to continue to rub my nose in it, AND she takes no responsibility for The Event in question, I have no interest in the discussion. It's hers to deal with on her own and as she sees fit. This may seem callous but so is holding tightly to resentments.
Balance,
As a wife who recognizes some of your wife's reluctance to let those past things go, I can only add my own personal opinion.
I too have the 'laundry list' of things my husband has done, and the resentment and anger are still there. I would not think of having sex with him at this point.
Yes he has apologized, and done more than many others to show he is truly sorry.
But my practical brain says "he will do it again" and I wonder if your wife is looking for more than just an apology, but a sign that you can modify your behavior so it doesn't happen again? There is also the time factor. Space and time to get over it.
I will also add here that MY anger is $hit and I need to deal with it. No one should carry this stuff around, it's not healthy nor is it fair.
People make mistakes. I'm working on it. Very hard.
But just wanted to say I can sorta relate.. it can be like layers of clothing. One layer at a time, until it seems like too much to bear and you want to throw it all off.
Life is easier when you deal with one lone sock at a time.
Good luck,
Balance,
As a wife who recognizes some of your wife's reluctance to let those past things go, I can only add my own personal opinion.
I too have the 'laundry list' of things my husband has done, and the resentment and anger are still there. I would not think of having sex with him at this point.
Yes he has apologized, and done more than many others to show he is truly sorry.
But my practical brain says "he will do it again" and I wonder if your wife is looking for more than just an apology, but a sign that you can modify your behavior so it doesn't happen again? There is also the time factor. Space and time to get over it.
I will also add here that MY anger is $hit and I need to deal with it. No one should carry this stuff around, it's not healthy nor is it fair.
People make mistakes. I'm working on it. Very hard.
But just wanted to say I can sorta relate.. it can be like layers of clothing. One layer at a time, until it seems like too much to bear and you want to throw it all off.
Life is easier when you deal with one lone sock at a time.
Good luck,
Thank you for your input. It's always good to get some perspective from the other side of things.
We had been taking the whole, "give it time and space" approach but it just feels never-ending. That was part of why we did the sex "break." To give her time to heal without the pressure of having sex.
I have tried to modify my behavior. And she has said that things really are much better, but when does she have to start modifying her behavior? It doesn't seem fair to expect me to reach/satisfy her needs for change before she even starts making changes.
Yes he has apologized, and done more than many others to show he is truly sorry.
But my practical brain says "he will do it again" and I wonder if your wife is looking for more than just an apology, but a sign that you can modify your behavior so it doesn't happen again? There is also the time factor. Space and time to get over it.
Is the goal to never be hurt again? Do you have habits/behaviors that are hurtful to him? Is your standard for yourself to get to a point where you will, literally, never do/say those things ever again? That seems unattainable for both you and your husband.
No matter how much I change, grow or mature I will almost surely hurt my wife again somewhere down the road. I don't want to, but let's be realistic. She will also hurt me.
The beautiful thing about a marriage is that it's two people being open and vulnerable with each other. Sometimes somebody will get hurt because of it, but it can also be a wonderful connection.
For me on my end, it's MY job to learn to get over it. To walk away and not be angry for more than 5 minutes about something. To let it go, and treat him like I want to be treated.
But something happens in the brain when you constantly hear I'm sorry and the behavior is just repeated again.
That begins a process of "boundaries" and not being with someone who does not respect you or appreciate you. Can you see how that can happen? The expression --- it's easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission. The idea that marriage gives a person free rein to do whatever they want... as long as they apologize for it later?
Once things get to this point, it becomes a matter of using that LIST as fodder to explain why you are checked out of the marriage.
Yes, I see that you say you are modifying behavior. Which is good for YOU, and should help you in the long run. But should you expect anything in return? Not really. It's to make you a better person. If you are only doing it because she asked, then ask yourself if she is asking you to change as a person, fundamentally, who you are.
Or is it personal growth? If it's personal growth, you shouldn't need a reward for it. You should just want to be that way, with her or anyone else. Is she looking for validation of this?
I don't know your whole story... but my story is just simply that I am seeking help with being bitter about that darn "list". Not because I want my husband to like me more or to save my marriage. But because I don't want to be bitter, period. It's holding me back from being truly happy in my life. And that doesn't make me a good spouse, friend, co-worker, or anything.
Whether or not I stay with my husband depends on how I feel when I get "happy" with me. Fundamentally... I don't want someone to pretend to be someone they are not. I want the real person. And if their true values come out, and it doesn't fit with mine, I won't stay.
In other words, if he is only pretending to be the person I've asked him to be, I'd rather be alone.
Your wife is punishing you for your past offences. The more you tolerate her punishment, the longer it will go on. I’ve seen wives in their 80s still punishing their husbands for things they did decades previously. It is a merciless, heartless persecution.
I think it is also immoral. On the one hand the wife punishes and in the other she takes all the things you do for her. Her punishment of you is by way of withholding. This can be anything from withholding sex all the way through to not baking you cakes.
The more you apologise to her and the more you try and make things up to her the longer her persecution and punishment of you will go on. Why is that you may well ask. It is simply that (a) Her persecution and punishment of you is deeply habitual and is a way of life for her and (b) Because you continue to be “good” to her even in the face of being punished she has absolutely no fear of loss. Not only of the things you do for her but you as a person. She simply does not fear losing you so does nothing to keep you!
Your wife is punishing you for your past offences. The more you tolerate her punishment, the longer it will go on. I’ve seen wives in their 80s still punishing their husbands for things they did decades previously. It is a merciless, heartless persecution.
I think it is also immoral. On the one hand the wife punishes and in the other she takes all the things you do for her. Her punishment of you is by way of withholding. This can be anything from withholding sex all the way through to not baking you cakes.
The more you apologise to her and the more you try and make things up to her the longer her persecution and punishment of you will go on. Why is that you may well ask. It is simply that (a) Her persecution and punishment of you is deeply habitual and is a way of life for her and (b) Because you continue to be “good” to her even in the face of being punished she has absolutely no fear of loss. Not only of the things you do for her but you as a person. She simply does not fear losing you so does nothing to keep you!
Do you think it was unwise to let her share some of her resentments and apologies for them? I really would like to just move on and start building a better relationship. A lot of the things feel like she just wants me to finally admit that I was wrong about something. Should I stop letting bring all that stuff back up with me?
I think the opposite. In that I think it very wise to let her share her resentments with you. These things really do need to be in the open and cleared up wherever possible. If they are not cleared up they eventually kill the marriage simply because while they are there love cannot blossom and grow. In fact love very much takes a back seat in the marriage.
Some really are traumatised, emotionally traumatised and it may take professional intervention to heal the trauma. Emotional trauma is best healed with forgiveness and by applying wisdom.
The problems you may face are your responses to what your wife tells you. For example with a given offence you may have absolutely no recollection of it and may well feel your wife is deluded, and she may well be. While on the other hand your wife may well feel that you are the deluded one. And so it goes on and on. This is a symptom of not confronting the issues/offences as they occur. Overtime what actually happened becomes lost and at the same time gets embellished, very much like false memory syndrome.
And of course you may well minimise the “affect” of one of your offences because you wouldn’t have responded in the same way to the same offence. And if you were to minimise you are shouting out that your wife’s feelings are of no significance to you.
I’m not saying you will respond as above, just that the path of forgiveness and reconciliation is littered with minefields for the inexperienced and that’s why it needs professional help. It is a massive problem and not one to ever be underestimated.
1. I expect her to share her needs with me openly and honestly.
2. Our relationship has to be a priority. We need to make efforts to heal, reconnect and move forward. This included spending more time together, and generally making it more of an urgent need.
3. Respect. This included some specifics about not lying to me, not mocking me in public and not devaluing my ideas and needs (I can't tell you how many times she has rolled her eyes at me and told me nobody cared about xyz).
4. Love. This included telling each other that we love each other and show love through physical affection. I did tell her that I need sex 2-3 times a week but realize we can't just jump right into that so I could negotiate the amount of times, but it did need to happen.
Her response:
1. Wanted to make sure I knew that making the relationship a priority was also my responsibility.
2. Although I was asking her to stop she wanted me to know that I spent a lot of time "teasing" and making fun of her early on in our marriage.
3. She does not want to say "I love you" and I need to understand that the relationship doesn't have to have that. She does not want to have sex and at most she could see us doing it once a month. She asked that if these were none negotiable than she would like to talk to the MC before giving a "real" answer. She also said that my "need" to have sex was not a real need but more of a desire.
So let's review your basic expectations!
1) Your wife is now sharing her resentment and dislike with you. You are having to apologize for things you said and did in the beginning of the relationship, years ago. Terrible, hurtful things, like suggesting that you only visit her parents twice a year. Not to be confused with terrible, hurtful things like only actually visiting her parents twice a year.......
2) In response to your needing to spend more time together, you two are "taking time and cooling off."
3) You want more respect. And a big first step will come right after you kiss her backside enough that she will make your life complete by saying those 3 magic words, "I love you." She is almost there- just a little bit more effort on your part, and you will experience the satisfaction of hearing your wife tell you she loves you. Once.
4) Love. You want it, she plays with herself twice a week, and says you are confusing "want" with "need."
Gee, BALANCE, it looks like you have done a swell job of figuring out your basic expectations. At least as long as you define "expectation" as "just words that don't mean anything."
You seem like a really nice guy, and your wife sounds like she is determined to make you pay for that. Perhaps I am missing something. Has she actually put any effort into meeting your "expectations" that you might have accidentally not written about in your posts?
By the end she shared a number of times where I hurt her and she did not feel like I acknowledged it or did not apologize for it. I apologized for those things and told her I was glad she could share them with me. She also told me that the level of tenderness in the relationship was so far below what she needed that she didn't see how I could ever meet her need there.
This is the crux of the problem with your wife. Until she feels like she is emotionally safe in the relationship, things will not get better. Some of that is up to you and some of that is up to her.
What I mean by that is this - your wife has certain needs that she obviously feels you are not meeting. She has a responsibility to figure out what needs SHE needs to be meeting for herself and which needs are reasonable for her to expect you to meet. The same goes for you. This is not a black and white issue. You both have a part to play in your own well-being and in the success of the marriage.
I would suggest NOT doing MC but each doing IC to get at the issues that are impacting your lives in a negative way.
Please pay attention to what your wife has told you about your past unwillingness to acknowledge or apologize for things you have done to hurt her. This has a HUGE negative impact on a marriage.
On the other hand, her rolling her eyes at you and mocking you is also destructive and is probably "payback" for all the hurt you have caused her.
The trick is to STOP the mutual hurting and to take FULL responsibility for the marriage - each of you. Tit for tat is a marriage killer and two wrongs don't make a right.
What if I were to ask her to share with me the things that I have done in the past that were hurtful. Once she tells me what it is I can ask her if she would be willing to forgive. If she says yes then I will gladly apologies, if she says no, I don't really see the point.
Does that seem fair? Is it manipulative or controlling?
See, now this seems like really scary thinking. So you only give her an apology if she will forgive you? So unless you get forgiveness you are not sorry for hurting her? I don't get it.
Either you are sorry for hurting someone you love or you aren't. What you "get" out of it is irrelevant.
This indicates some "tit for tat" and keeping score dynamics in your marriage. This is a marriage killer.
See, now this seems like really scary thinking. So you only give her an apology if she will forgive you? So unless you get forgiveness you are not sorry for hurting her? I don't get it.
Either you are sorry for hurting someone you love or you aren't. What you "get" out of it is irrelevant.
This indicates some "tit for tat" and keeping score dynamics in your marriage. This is a marriage killer.
Unfortunately it’s very much his wife is the one who is keeping score. Most especially the tit-for-tat. Men typically don't do that stuff. “You hurt me, I’ll never forgive you. I’ll make you pay for it”.
His wife is the one who must be motivated to forgive and move on towards a better relationship. Without that the guy hasn’t a hope in hell, he’ll just be spinning his wheels. But with that motivation then what he does will either help or sabotage the process.
There’s actually a new disorder trying to get recognition. Post Embitterment Stress Disorder. It’s reasonably controversial at the moment but my personal experience speaks the truth of it.
There are some who will never ever forgive no matter what the person their persecution and punishment is aimed at does. If Balance’s wife is one of those the sooner he finds out the better for him. And making a deal about if he apologises will she forgive is one sure way of finding out very quickly. At the very least he’ll know the size of the mountain he’ll have to climb.
A wife’s embitterment is one massive fitness test for a husband and its fraught with minefields.
His wife is the one who is killing the marriage through her need for persecution, revenge and punishment. I actually think it's quite wicked and sometimes evil. If she really feels that way about him she should leave.
Gee, BALANCE, it looks like you have done a swell job of figuring out your basic expectations. At least as long as you define "expectation" as "just words that don't mean anything."
What do you mean here? Are the expectations to vague? Are you saying my wife doesn't think they mean anything?
Re: My Basic Expectations 
