It did seem to have a healing affect for her. Overall I'm not sure she really wants to have a whole list of things to throw at me. I think if we can get to the point where she feels safe and cared for she will let the past go. One big questions would be whether she can get there on her own, as in the marriage is on hold and I back off until she feels safe, or I try to be involved and work through this stuff with her.
In my opinion, I really thing you need to get involved and work through it with her. You said communicating her resentments seemed to start the healing process. It sounds like she didn't think you were listening before and that have started to do that. So don't stop now!!!!
Most women need to feel emotionally connected and supported before they will desire sex with their husband. My marriage is proof of this. I went from sex a dozen times a year. I saw messages to her friends and EA partner that she was not physically attracted to me at all.
After the affair, now that we are extremely close emotionally, we have more sex then when we were first married, and sometimes she'll jump on me and tell me how she can't resist how sexy and hot I am.
It's not that she was lying to her friends or that she's lying to me now. Women have an emotional connection to their sexual attraction. If she doesn't feel loved, she's not going to find you attractive. Fortunately, the flip is also true, you can be an ugly fat-body and if you keep her love tank full she's going to find you irresistible.
I'm speaking in generalities but I think this holds true for most women. If you're wife used to have sex with you more frequently but now doesn't, that's a good sign that she's not connected to you anymore (assuming nothing medical is wrong).
Balance, you keep saying you apologize for hurting her, however I have this feeling that you are saying it like a child would say to a parent...meaning "I'm sorry and I promise never to do it again"... kind of thing that you know as a parent is just pure and simple BS and they are just saying it to say it. I'm in NO WAY saying that is how you feel, but I'm saying that that might be the way she is taking it. Especially if she give you a laundry list and you just say sorry dear didn't mean to hurt you.
Coming from the resenting wife side, I will admit that I will bring up past incidents to show that there is still the on going patterns that started the resentment to begin with. Women have memories like elephants, we remember just about everything that has hurt us in the past and some of us will instinctively tried to protect ourselves from being hurt again in that manner. Therefore, if you even seem to be going down the path that leads to that hurt she's going to bulk. Not saying that that is the correct thing to do all the time, just that it does happen.
Again NOT putting all the blame on you, she has a bunch of it on her side. I was just solely responding to your question about you apologizing for hurting her.
I think it's possible that my apologies do not carry the emotional weight that her hurt does (does that make sense?) Some of these things are so long ago, some I don't even remember so it's hard to feel "in the moment" again. However, I have broken down and cried and very emotionally apologized for the hurt that I have caused her.
I think it's possible that my apologies do not carry the emotional weight that her hurt does (does that make sense?) Some of these things are so long ago, some I don't even remember so it's hard to feel "in the moment" again. However, I have broken down and cried and very emotionally apologized for the hurt that I have caused her.
Please don't cry it makes you look weak! Best thing is apologize sincerely once and move on.
If she brings it up again say "I already apologized what do you want my blood too?" throw it back at her and be consistent in your now improved behaviors.
Make the past the past! I even told my wife "We are done talking about he past I did this at the two years mark from ILYNILWY" so she is no longer able to bring it up. Right now its all about either moving closer or apart to divorce.
Makes it simple. She can pick A or B. So far its A.
Look strong and determined in your wife's eyes...NOT WEAK.
So tonight we are going to have another talk. She's spent the week writing up some of her expectations to share with me.
There is one thing I'm not sure how to handle (I say as if I have everything else all figured out) I know she wants me to stop doubting her love for me. She wants me not to say, "you don't love me" and instead say, "I feel unloved." Trouble is I have said that and I have told her what would make me feel loved (this is based on the LL book) but she refuses to do those things, i.e. saying, "I love you" and sex.
How can I not doubt her love when she knows how to demonstrate love to me in a way that will make me feel loved but refused to do it?
Please don't cry it makes you look weak! Best thing is apologize sincerely once and move on.
If she brings it up again say "I already apologized what do you want my blood too?" throw it back at her and be consistent in your now improved behaviors.
Make the past the past! I even told my wife "We are done talking about he past I did this at the two years mark from ILYNILWY" so she is no longer able to bring it up. Right now its all about either moving closer or apart to divorce.
Makes it simple. She can pick A or B. So far its A.
Look strong and determined in your wife's eyes...NOT WEAK.
OK, maybe that sounded like I was crying and begging for forgiveness or something.
I'm not sure I agree with the idea that crying=weakness. I don't cry a lot, but I'm not ashamed to if I am truly moved.
I think it's possible that my apologies do not carry the emotional weight that her hurt does (does that make sense?) Some of these things are so long ago, some I don't even remember so it's hard to feel "in the moment" again. However, I have broken down and cried and very emotionally apologized for the hurt that I have caused her.
Yes that makes complete sense!! It makes even more sense if you repeat the actions again. If you have not repeated the hurtful behavior then to be honest, not much more for you to do...NOT saying it's all over, just saying it's on her...and yes even if it's on her, you can try and talk it out with her. Try to get her to express how she's feeling and what you did that hurt you...because frankly, she may actually be hurt by something completely different than what you are apologizing for.
I have to say again I truly admire that you are trying so hard ...as Dr. Phil says every relationship needs a hero...someone that steps forward and takes action first...I just hope that she will join you because it takes two to make a marriage last!!!
So tonight we are going to have another talk. She's spent the week writing up some of her expectations to share with me.
There is one thing I'm not sure how to handle (I say as if I have everything else all figured out) I know she wants me to stop doubting her love for me. She wants me not to say, "you don't love me" and instead say, "I feel unloved." Trouble is I have said that and I have told her what would make me feel loved (this is based on the LL book) but she refuses to do those things, i.e. saying, "I love you" and sex.
How can I not doubt her love when she knows how to demonstrate love to me in a way that will make me feel loved but refused to do it?
Quit telling her what you need her to do... she will always refuse. Suggest instead...over and over suggest.
I'd start with sex (basic marriage expectation) then the ILY's will come.
Say to her "I don't doubt your love for me" We need to get to the point of having sex x times per Y to feel me to feel closest to you emotionally. I'm a man I need to see you orgasm and then cum inside you that makes me feel close to you.
Say that over and over in different ways it'll finally sink in. No ultimatums just suggestions over and over.
Sooner or later she will see that it's easier just to have sex and then she'll realize she was stupid holding out.
Quit telling her what you need her to do... she will always refuse. Suggest instead...over and over suggest.
I'd start with sex (basic marriage expectation) then the ILY's will come.
Say to her "I don't doubt your love for me" We need to get to the point of having sex x times per Y to feel me to feel closest to you emotionally. I'm a man I need to see you orgasm and then cum inside you that makes me feel close to you.
Say that over and over in different ways it'll finally sink in. No ultimatums just suggestions over and over.
Sooner or later she will see that it's easier just to have sex and then she'll realize she was stupid holding out.
So tonight we are going to have another talk. She's spent the week writing up some of her expectations to share with me.
There is one thing I'm not sure how to handle (I say as if I have everything else all figured out) I know she wants me to stop doubting her love for me. She wants me not to say, "you don't love me" and instead say, "I feel unloved." Trouble is I have said that and I have told her what would make me feel loved (this is based on the LL book) but she refuses to do those things, i.e. saying, "I love you" and sex.
How can I not doubt her love when she knows how to demonstrate love to me in a way that will make me feel loved but refused to do it?
You're doing the right thing. Be willing and open and honest with yourself. Be willing to meet her needs, listen as intently as you can not to what she is saying, but to the emotions of what she is conveying. If you really get to the root of what she wants and needs, and you start meeting those needs, if you approach your wife from a position of love and respect, then she will start to turn around.
I have a lot of hope for you, because obviously your wife has not given up on you. She's being open and honest and that means she still cares about the marriage. Meet her true needs, continue working on stopping the behaviors that hurt her, and she'll start to turn around. It will take some time, but trust takes time to rebuild. If you consistently give her new experiences that show you care about her and love her and support her, she will begin to realize you have changed.
I think there's a time and place for standing up and claiming you're not happy and you need XYZ for a solid marriage, I'm not sure if you're in that boat. If you are doing what you're doing and get no response after a few months, then I'd think about switching up the game plan, but I really think your wife just needs a little time. Your wife is hurt, she's been feeling neglected for years, you making demands of her is not going to show that you understand her pain.
Just like you don't FEEL loved by her even though you probably know she does love you, throughout your marriage, that's how she felt about you. She KNEW you loved her, but she didn't FEEL loved. For whatever reason you didn't do the things to her that she needed to FEEL loved, so she doubted that love. After a long enough time, she grew to believe that maybe you didn't love her.
To put the shoe on the other foot, if you're wife gives you no sex and doesn't say she loves you for a few years, you're going to be just as bitter and resentful as she was. Even if she started giving it to you every day and saying I love you every 5 seconds, you're going to wonder if she's going to slip back into old patterns. Maybe one day of no sex and you'd start to get worried that you're cut off again. It would take some time, a few weeks, maybe months, before you truly believed that she was changed and the new patterns were the "new normal".
I'm not trying to say you've been a bad husband or person, just that whatever you've been doing hasn't made her FEEL loved. And if it doesn't make her FEEL loved, then it's almost as if you did nothing. This is what I really had to understand before I had a breakthrough in my marriage. As a guy I rationalized that I was a good husband and that my wife was lucky, but I rationalized my way out of a happy wife. You sound like you're in the same boat. You ARE a good husband, many women would find your actions extremely sexy and be lucky to have you. But you have a wife that you're committed to and that you love living in your house and she's telling you she's not happy. Give that woman what she needs and I promise with some time she'll jump your bones.
So tonight we are going to have another talk. She's spent the week writing up some of her expectations to share with me.
And I hope your list will be included too!!!! You are just as important!
BTW IMO crying (not whining and acting like a baby) is a sign of manliness because you aren't afraid to show your feelings. (that said blubbering... not cool)
After reading COguys thread I have to modify mine!! That is beyond reasonable and rational advice. I still say bring your issues to the table, but not as a demand list... just as a point of opening up and sharing with her your feelings and emotions.
I have to respectfully disagree wholeheartedly with Trying.
There may be a time and place for that, but now is not it, at least in my opinion.
I would guarantee that there is not a way you could say anything remotely close to that while giving your wife the impression that you care about what she has been saying and are understanding.
I'm all for manning up, but do it in the right way. The last thing a bitter wife wants to hear is how she should have sex with you. Even if you say it from a place of love and respect, she's going to take it as obligation and it's going to tack on the resentment.
I shared your story with my wife, we've been having crazy teenager sex for a few weeks and she knows I have absolutely no complaints in that department right now. I discussed with her how that subject could be approached and essentially the response was, no matter how you phrase it, she's going to feel obligated into it and it's going to turn her off. About the only way to say it where she didn't get discouraged was something like, "I really love you and really want to connect with you, this is how I feel connected. Just like I want to show you how much I love you and am working really hard on making you feel special, making love to you is what makes me feel special and connected." Now your wife knows what you need and doesn't feel obligated to have sex. If she has sex with you, you just got validation that she is looking to meet your needs.
I have related sex with my wife to doing the dishes (her love language is acts of service, you can sub this out for any activity your wife enjoys but you're not good at). I will not, under any circumstances, fantasize about doing dishes. I will not go into the shower and think about how awesome clean dishes are. I will not go online and look at websites for dishwashers. When my wife nagged me about how the dishes were always dirty and how I should help her out more by doing the dishes, I completely loathed doing them. I hated dishes. I wanted to use paper plates and silverware so I'd never have to do them.
When I figured out that my wife gets actual, real, pleasure out of having clean dishes. When that lightbulb went off for me and I realized that the feeling I get after screwing my wife is a similar feeling to what she gets when she comes home and the dishes are done and I'm helping her with the kids, I COULD NOT STOP DOING DISHES IF I TRIED. I love doing the dishes now!! That sounds so gay but I don't care, there is a rare moment in my house where there is a stray dish in the sink. If a big dinner is made, you will find me HAPPILY doing the dishes with a big crap-eating grin on my face like I'm getting a BJ. It's not just about running the heavy cycle and hearing the water noises, it's because I know that my wife is taking immense pleasure from what I'm doing. It's like I'm giving my wife a mind orgasm.
My wife (and probably yours) is the same way about sex. My wife doesn't fantasize about sex (or didn't at least). She won't go online and look at people screwing, she's not touching herself in the shower thinking of some big dildo inside of her. When I told my wife I wanted to have sex, she took as resentment and loathed it. She did stuff purposely to avoid sex, like not letting me touch or kiss her or hug her.
When my wife realized that I cared about her and wanted to please her, and she realized how sex made me feel, the lightbulb went off. She is like a sex-crazed monster now. She sends me dirty pictures and texts, she lets me do forbidden dangerous things to her in public places. She's jumping me around the house. It's not because she turned into a ****, it's because she figured out that it's how she meets my needs. We are both on the same page now, we both are 100% committed to meeting eachother's needs and that means that I WANT to help her around the house and with the kids, and she WANTS to have crazy end of world sex with me.
We got to that point though because we had a marriage-ending event to take us there. It was either we turned around and focused 100% or we were going to get divorced. You don't have that event, so it's going to take time and dedication for her to believe it. Stick with it, your time will come.
i have to respectfully disagree wholeheartedly with trying.
There may be a time and place for that, but now is not it, at least in my opinion.
I would guarantee that there is not a way you could say anything remotely close to that while giving your wife the impression that you care about what she has been saying and are understanding.
I'm all for manning up, but do it in the right way. The last thing a bitter wife wants to hear is how she should have sex with you. Even if you say it from a place of love and respect, she's going to take it as obligation and it's going to tack on the resentment.
I shared your story with my wife, we've been having crazy teenager sex for a few weeks and she knows i have absolutely no complaints in that department right now. I discussed with her how that subject could be approached and essentially the response was, no matter how you phrase it, she's going to feel obligated into it and it's going to turn her off. About the only way to say it where she didn't get discouraged was something like, "i really love you and really want to connect with you, this is how i feel connected. Just like i want to show you how much i love you and am working really hard on making you feel special, making love to you is what makes me feel special and connected." now your wife knows what you need and doesn't feel obligated to have sex. If she has sex with you, you just got validation that she is looking to meet your needs.
I have related sex with my wife to doing the dishes (her love language is acts of service, you can sub this out for any activity your wife enjoys but you're not good at). I will not, under any circumstances, fantasize about doing dishes. I will not go into the shower and think about how awesome clean dishes are. I will not go online and look at websites for dishwashers. When my wife nagged me about how the dishes were always dirty and how i should help her out more by doing the dishes, i completely loathed doing them. I hated dishes. I wanted to use paper plates and silverware so i'd never have to do them.
When i figured out that my wife gets actual, real, pleasure out of having clean dishes. When that lightbulb went off for me and i realized that the feeling i get after screwing my wife is a similar feeling to what she gets when she comes home and the dishes are done and i'm helping her with the kids, i could not stop doing dishes if i tried. I love doing the dishes now!! That sounds so gay but i don't care, there is a rare moment in my house where there is a stray dish in the sink. If a big dinner is made, you will find me happily doing the dishes with a big crap-eating grin on my face like i'm getting a bj. It's not just about running the heavy cycle and hearing the water noises, it's because i know that my wife is taking immense pleasure from what i'm doing. It's like i'm giving my wife a mind orgasm.
My wife (and probably yours) is the same way about sex. My wife doesn't fantasize about sex (or didn't at least). She won't go online and look at people screwing, she's not touching herself in the shower thinking of some big dildo inside of her. When i told my wife i wanted to have sex, she took as resentment and loathed it. She did stuff purposely to avoid sex, like not letting me touch or kiss her or hug her.
When my wife realized that i cared about her and wanted to please her, and she realized how sex made me feel, the lightbulb went off. She is like a sex-crazed monster now. She sends me dirty pictures and texts, she lets me do forbidden dangerous things to her in public places. She's jumping me around the house. It's not because she turned into a ****, it's because she figured out that it's how she meets my needs. We are both on the same page now, we both are 100% committed to meeting eachother's needs and that means that i want to help her around the house and with the kids, and she wants to have crazy end of world sex with me.
We got to that point though because we had a marriage-ending event to take us there. It was either we turned around and focused 100% or we were going to get divorced. You don't have that event, so it's going to take time and dedication for her to believe it. Stick with it, your time will come.
When my wife realized that I cared about her and wanted to please her, and she realized how sex made me feel, the lightbulb went off. She is like a sex-crazed monster now. She sends me dirty pictures and texts, she lets me do forbidden dangerous things to her in public places. She's jumping me around the house. It's not because she turned into a ****, it's because she figured out that it's how she meets my needs. We are both on the same page now, we both are 100% committed to meeting eachother's needs and that means that I WANT to help her around the house and with the kids, and she WANTS to have crazy end of world sex with me.
I appreciate the encouragement.
What you described there is what I am trying to work towards. That has been my strategy. We are both good people, we both love each other we are just missing opportunities to meet each others needs. We both used control and manipulation to try and get our needs met but now I want us just to be open about them.
The struggle for me is when I lay out my needs clearly, i.e. sex. And she flat out refuses. And I have done it almost exactly like your wife described. I said, "for me to feel emotionally connected and loved I need to have sex." She said it wasn't a real need and she couldn't do it. So then what do I do? Just try and meet her needs as best I can and hope for change (basically what I have been trying to do the last year)? What would have happened in your marriage if you had flat out refused to do the dishes?
How I described it to her was we were missing something important and now we can finally see clearly. Our mindset should be, "Oh my gosh I had no idea you needed me to do xyz." There should be an urgency, there should be running. Running to meet the neglected need. But she seems apathetic and resistant. It just hurts me more and I end up feeling even more rejected.
What you described there is what I am trying to work towards. That has been my strategy. We are both good people, we both love each other we are just missing opportunities to meet each others needs. We both used control and manipulation to try and get our needs met but now I want us just to be open about them.
The struggle for me is when I lay out my needs clearly, i.e. sex. And she flat out refuses. And I have done it almost exactly like your wife described. I said, "for me to feel emotionally connected and loved I need to have sex." She said it wasn't a real need and she couldn't do it. So then what do I do? Just try and meet her needs as best I can and hope for change (basically what I have been trying to do the last year)? What would have happened in your marriage if you had flat out refused to do the dishes?
How I described it to her was we were missing something important and now we can finally see clearly. Our mindset should be, "Oh my gosh I had no idea you needed me to do xyz." There should be an urgency, there should be running. Running to meet the neglected need. But she seems apathetic and resistant. It just hurts me more and I end up feeling even more rejected.
I think you need to call her on this statement. Ask her why she gets to define what your needs are. Ask how she would feel if she told you about a need and you said it was not a real need. She gets to chose whether she wants to try and meet one of your needs or not, but she does not get to define what your needs are.
In addition, saying this allows her to ignore her responsibility in the marriage. Since sex isn't a need, she does not need to address this area of the marriage and does not have to focus at least on that choice she has made.
Re: My Basic Expectations 
I will admit that I will bring up past incidents to show that there is still the on going patterns that started the resentment to begin with. Women have memories like elephants, we remember just about everything that has hurt us in the past and some of us will instinctively tried to protect ourselves from being hurt again in that manner. Therefore, if you even seem to be going down the path that leads to that hurt she's going to bulk. Not saying that that is the correct thing to do all the time, just that it does happen.
