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Old 12-06-2011, 11:04 AM   #76 (permalink)
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You need to stop talking about your needs and coming across as weak. And for gods sake, you work full time, get the groceries, do the laundry, deal with the kids and have no time for yourself. Your a puppy chasing your wife around constantly hoping for some affection and a pat on the head.

People don't sleep with there puppies. There cute, but annoying after awhile. Seriously, you do need to MAN UP. Answer me this, why would your wife change anything.......she has you busting a nut to go over and above what is reasonable hoping she might pat your head and say she loves you. She's got a good thing going and is TOTALLY controlling you.

You need to think about yourself. Be yourself. Make time for yourself. And yes, have boundries. Boundries by the way, aren't things that your wife has cleared and said are ok for you to have.

Get your own life on track. Spend the time with your kids. Be fair and help out.... but if your wife is not working don't do all the home chores etc. You have a full time job.

Remember Ensteins quote about the definition of insanity being doing the same thing over and over and yet expecting different results. CHANGE YOUR TACTICS and behavior. You know chasing her will not work. My best advice is one, remember who you were when you met her and attracted her...... be THAT version of you. Assuming your a good man with your family and wifes best interest at heart..... don't worry about her getting angry, or cutting you off, or whatever. She's already doing all of that.

Tell her what YOU expect in 20 words or less. Then disengage from her. Do your own thing. Go out for a few hours in the evening with the guys (or a movie or whatever) just be gone a bit and make her wonder. (Don't tell her exactly what you are doing). Be mysterious. People stop moving away when you stop chasing them. Seriously, get your own life and live it.

Don't initiate rubs, kisses, hugs, affections, discussions, anything. Let her do it.
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:15 AM   #77 (permalink)
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I think you need to call her on this statement. Ask her why she gets to define what your needs are. Ask how she would feel if she told you about a need and you said it was not a real need. She gets to chose whether she wants to try and meet one of your needs or not, but she does not get to define what your needs are.

In addition, saying this allows her to ignore her responsibility in the marriage. Since sex isn't a need, she does not need to address this area of the marriage and does not have to focus at least on that choice she has made.
I did call her on it, and basically told her she doesn't get to decide what my needs are. Her "last word" was, "I hear what you are saying and I know that YOU think it is a need."

If it is a real need it doesn't seem like I should just let it go, but if I push it and make her feel obligated to do it she'll just resent me more.

Tonight, I'm going to try really hard not to argue about it. I'm just putting it out there, "To feel loved I need physical affection and to to have sex." I guess the rest is really her responsibility. Then I just really need to be on the ball about meeting her needs.
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:26 AM   #78 (permalink)
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You need to stop talking about your needs and coming across as weak. And for gods sake, you work full time, get the groceries, do the laundry, deal with the kids and have no time for yourself. Your a puppy chasing your wife around constantly hoping for some affection and a pat on the head.

People don't sleep with there puppies. There cute, but annoying after awhile. Seriously, you do need to MAN UP. Answer me this, why would your wife change anything.......she has you busting a nut to go over and above what is reasonable hoping she might pat your head and say she loves you. She's got a good thing going and is TOTALLY controlling you.

You need to think about yourself. Be yourself. Make time for yourself. And yes, have boundries. Boundries by the way, aren't things that your wife has cleared and said are ok for you to have.

Get your own life on track. Spend the time with your kids. Be fair and help out.... but if your wife is not working don't do all the home chores etc. You have a full time job.

Remember Ensteins quote about the definition of insanity being doing the same thing over and over and yet expecting different results. CHANGE YOUR TACTICS and behavior. You know chasing her will not work. My best advice is one, remember who you were when you met her and attracted her...... be THAT version of you. Assuming your a good man with your family and wifes best interest at heart..... don't worry about her getting angry, or cutting you off, or whatever. She's already doing all of that.

Tell her what YOU expect in 20 words or less. Then disengage from her. Do your own thing. Go out for a few hours in the evening with the guys (or a movie or whatever) just be gone a bit and make her wonder. (Don't tell her exactly what you are doing). Be mysterious. People stop moving away when you stop chasing them. Seriously, get your own life and live it.

Don't initiate rubs, kisses, hugs, affections, discussions, anything. Let her do it.
OK, so there is two totally different approaches here. And it seems that doing the wrong one could cause more damage. How am I supposed to know what to do?
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:31 AM   #79 (permalink)
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I appreciate the encouragement.

What you described there is what I am trying to work towards. That has been my strategy. We are both good people, we both love each other we are just missing opportunities to meet each others needs. We both used control and manipulation to try and get our needs met but now I want us just to be open about them.
The struggle for me is when I lay out my needs clearly, i.e. sex. And she flat out refuses. And I have done it almost exactly like your wife described. I said, "for me to feel emotionally connected and loved I need to have sex." She said it wasn't a real need and she couldn't do it. So then what do I do? Just try and meet her needs as best I can and hope for change (basically what I have been trying to do the last year)? What would have happened in your marriage if you had flat out refused to do the dishes?

How I described it to her was we were missing something important and now we can finally see clearly. Our mindset should be, "Oh my gosh I had no idea you needed me to do xyz." There should be an urgency, there should be running. Running to meet the neglected need. But she seems apathetic and resistant. It just hurts me more and I end up feeling even more rejected.
If you've really been doing that for a year and you've been having these open-book conversations for a year, then yes you need to be more demanding. But from what I've read I was under the impression that these real heart to hearts is a new thing that just started recently.

I want to make it clear that I agree you need to not dote on her 24/7, be your own man, and learn to respect yourself. That is important for any relationship and especially so in my case.

Timing is a big issue in these though. If you have really JUST started meeting your wife's needs, it will take time for the resentment to fade. You can talk to your wife about this, ask her if what you're doing is meeting her needs. If she says yes, ask her how long she's felt that way.

I think you need to definitely make time for yourself, find out who you are and make sure you are your own person. Give your wife some time to turn around, be open about it. Ask her how long she thinks it could take to let go of some of the resentment.

You'll know when you can't take it anymore, at that point you'll need to make the decision to keep going or leave. From what you're telling me your wife is wanting to work it out and it sounds like you both hit the bottom and want to start making it better. Don't short-change yourself by coming off as an arrogant prick and pushing your wife in the emotional ****ter.

The "man up" phrase can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. To me it means, always knowing who you are and your values, not compromising on them. It means making time for yourself. But to me it also means being a patient, understanding husband.

There are guys who will get run over their whole lives, Extreme A. There are guys who will be demanding asshats who only think of themselves, Extreme B. For some reason guys tend to fantasize about being Extreme B (granted they probably get a lot more meaningless sex). Somewhere in the middle are good men who have happy wives and are good role-models for their kids.

Any assbag with a wiener can demand sex from his wife. To me a real man is his own man, but is strong enough to put his wife first if needed. There's a difference to that and being a doormat. From what your telling me it sounds like your wife is jaded and is going to come around. It doesn't make you a doormat to be patient with her. Like I said, if you continue for weeks and get NO response, then you're being a doormat.

Start some more hobbies and make sure you are your own person and not just a slave, but don't stop being the man your wife needs you to be. That happy ground is in your name: BALANCE, and it's not always easy to find.
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:50 AM   #80 (permalink)
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I did call her on it, and basically told her she doesn't get to decide what my needs are. Her "last word" was, "I hear what you are saying and I know that YOU think it is a need."

If it is a real need it doesn't seem like I should just let it go, but if I push it and make her feel obligated to do it she'll just resent me more.

Tonight, I'm going to try really hard not to argue about it. I'm just putting it out there, "To feel loved I need physical affection and to to have sex." I guess the rest is really her responsibility. Then I just really need to be on the ball about meeting her needs.
As long as meeting her needs is not a one-way street. I don't mean to sound like a broken record, or like I am trying to derail the work that you are doing. Rather, I hope you are careful and vigilent about creating a marriage that is a partnership where both of you work to provide what the other needs. You working really hard to meet hers and her saying that your need isn't really a need and therefore not her concern is not the way to do that. She needs to show progress in resolving and letting go of her hurt and resentment. She also needs to show progress in providing support for you and meeting your needs. Just be careful that in working hard to meet her needs, you don't ignore or excuse the work that she should be doing as well.
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:56 AM   #81 (permalink)
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I did call her on it, and basically told her she doesn't get to decide what my needs are. Her "last word" was, "I hear what you are saying and I know that YOU think it is a need."

If it is a real need it doesn't seem like I should just let it go, but if I push it and make her feel obligated to do it she'll just resent me more.

Tonight, I'm going to try really hard not to argue about it. I'm just putting it out there, "To feel loved I need physical affection and to to have sex." I guess the rest is really her responsibility. Then I just really need to be on the ball about meeting her needs.
And go one more step by saying that you want to emotionally meet her needs and you are willing to wait as long as it takes for her to feel the need to be emotionally connected to you to. Might sound a little manipulative but I am assuming that minus the "as long as it takes" part you feel that...and in fact if you do feel that she SHOULD sense it and hopefully ya won't need to wait for toooo much longer.
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:51 PM   #82 (permalink)
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The struggle for me is when I lay out my needs clearly, i.e. sex. And she flat out refuses. And I have done it almost exactly like your wife described. I said, "for me to feel emotionally connected and loved I need to have sex." She said it wasn't a real need and she couldn't do it. .
Balance,
Just my opinion, but I can't stress this point strongly enough, although many men will inherently disagree: By verbalizing that you are prioritizing sex as a primary need, it is incredibly easy for many guys to communicate this in a way that really sends the wrong signals to the wife. You say, "I need sex." She's hearing, "I need to perform an act on your body," or "I have so many doubts about my own masculinity that I need an agreement on how much sex will be involved within this relationship."

I'm really not trying to be harsh or insensitive, or to claim that I somehow have things figured out. Lets just say that I was lucky enough to find a pre-marital counsellor who really focused on this topic. When resentment is involved, I feel that it is pretty important that she feels like you consider yourself a very lucky man to be intimate with her, below the sexual act itself. I'd challenge you to make that the priority for a while, since I think you mentioned that you've struggled in the past with closeness for your part. I'm not talking about just sitting beside her. Maybe tell her that you want sex to be a positive experience for her, and would just like to focus on intimacy and her enjoyment of that for a while. Push the envelope as the days pass, but don't go further until she can't let you stop.

I think that I'd probably have a completely different, and negative, dynamic in our sexual relationship if I didn't let my wife know early each evening that I'm crazy about hugging, caressing, or cornering her for a long kiss. She has her own non-verbal ways for letting me know if she's going to be in the mood. The key for us is in not letting sex be an act - its an ongoing, building expression of desire for each other. She knows that its not an act that can be purchased from someone on a street corner.

I believe that some women really like the type of sexual relationship where sex is not talked about, but is led into through your confidence in making it an incredible experience for her. Don't let sex be the goal. If she is the goal, you'll get what you want out of it. Quit asking, but just be bold. Watch her body language and just do it. Recognize that it'll take a little time to change. she can build her own confidence through trust.

Maybe I'm just a lucky schmuck, but my wife says that I've never asked for sex verbally, and she's never said no. I do get the dreaded "I started" about once a month, though, which is pretty close, I guess.
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Old 12-06-2011, 01:06 PM   #83 (permalink)
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I believe that some women really like the type of sexual relationship where sex is not talked about, but is led into through your confidence in making it an incredible experience for her. Don't let sex be the goal. If she is the goal, you'll get what you want out of it. Quit asking, but just be bold. Watch her body language and just do it. Recognize that it'll take a little time to change. she can build her own confidence through trust.
I get what you are saying. I have phrased it as I need physical affection and a connection.

When things were OK and we were having sex I didn't ask for it and I didn't get all obsessed about it. It's when it gets taken away, as in, "We need to take a break from sex" that it gets hard to be "natural" about it.

This also takes me back to another thread I posted about Teasing. Because to me her coming to bed in nothing but a thong is a clear green light, but then she will turn me down. So the body language doesn't seem to match up with what she wants. It's hard to be bold when everything is so messed up.
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Old 12-06-2011, 01:32 PM   #84 (permalink)
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As long as meeting her needs is not a one-way street. I don't mean to sound like a broken record, or like I am trying to derail the work that you are doing. Rather, I hope you are careful and vigilent about creating a marriage that is a partnership where both of you work to provide what the other needs. You working really hard to meet hers and her saying that your need isn't really a need and therefore not her concern is not the way to do that. She needs to show progress in resolving and letting go of her hurt and resentment. She also needs to show progress in providing support for you and meeting your needs. Just be careful that in working hard to meet her needs, you don't ignore or excuse the work that she should be doing as well.
I think this is a great response to balance out what I was saying. It's a two way street. I would just add that your wife probably is trying right now, it may not look the way you want or be as much as you would really like though. The fact that she's in counseling talking to you about it, that she's expressed some desire to meet your needs. That's progress, and it's a good sign. Give her positive encouragement for the small changes she is making, it will make her want to go further.
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Old 12-06-2011, 01:37 PM   #85 (permalink)
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I get what you are saying. I have phrased it as I need physical affection and a connection.

When things were OK and we were having sex I didn't ask for it and I didn't get all obsessed about it. It's when it gets taken away, as in, "We need to take a break from sex" that it gets hard to be "natural" about it.

This also takes me back to another thread I posted about Teasing. Because to me her coming to bed in nothing but a thong is a clear green light, but then she will turn me down. So the body language doesn't seem to match up with what she wants. It's hard to be bold when everything is so messed up.
I can't find the reference to it, but did you once mention that she brought up some aspect of closeness where you admitted that you struggled with in the past? Sorry if I'm not remembering correctly, but I am wondering if this could be a bigger part of her problem? Its very easy for people to assume that the unmet needs are intentional, when they may only be misunderstood.
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Old 12-06-2011, 02:00 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Balance,
Just my opinion, but I can't stress this point strongly enough, although many men will inherently disagree: By verbalizing that you are prioritizing sex as a primary need, it is incredibly easy for many guys to communicate this in a way that really sends the wrong signals to the wife. You say, "I need sex." She's hearing, "I need to perform an act on your body," or "I have so many doubts about my own masculinity that I need an agreement on how much sex will be involved within this relationship."

I'm really not trying to be harsh or insensitive, or to claim that I somehow have things figured out. Lets just say that I was lucky enough to find a pre-marital counsellor who really focused on this topic. When resentment is involved, I feel that it is pretty important that she feels like you consider yourself a very lucky man to be intimate with her, below the sexual act itself. I'd challenge you to make that the priority for a while, since I think you mentioned that you've struggled in the past with closeness for your part. I'm not talking about just sitting beside her. Maybe tell her that you want sex to be a positive experience for her, and would just like to focus on intimacy and her enjoyment of that for a while. Push the envelope as the days pass, but don't go further until she can't let you stop.

I think that I'd probably have a completely different, and negative, dynamic in our sexual relationship if I didn't let my wife know early each evening that I'm crazy about hugging, caressing, or cornering her for a long kiss. She has her own non-verbal ways for letting me know if she's going to be in the mood. The key for us is in not letting sex be an act - its an ongoing, building expression of desire for each other. She knows that its not an act that can be purchased from someone on a street corner.

I believe that some women really like the type of sexual relationship where sex is not talked about, but is led into through your confidence in making it an incredible experience for her. Don't let sex be the goal. If she is the goal, you'll get what you want out of it. Quit asking, but just be bold. Watch her body language and just do it. Recognize that it'll take a little time to change. she can build her own confidence through trust.

Maybe I'm just a lucky schmuck, but my wife says that I've never asked for sex verbally, and she's never said no. I do get the dreaded "I started" about once a month, though, which is pretty close, I guess.
I agree with this, and have found it true with my wife as well. She does not want to talk about sex, but is usually willing to let me lead us. As she has gotten comfortable with that, she also feels comfortable to suggest things or steer us in different directions.

Having said that, I understood the conversation about needs to have taken place during counseling, which is why some verbal discussion of his needs is necessary.
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Old 12-06-2011, 02:07 PM   #87 (permalink)
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I have to respectfully disagree wholeheartedly with Trying.

There may be a time and place for that, but now is not it, at least in my opinion.

I would guarantee that there is not a way you could say anything remotely close to that while giving your wife the impression that you care about what she has been saying and are understanding.

I'm all for manning up, but do it in the right way. The last thing a bitter wife wants to hear is how she should have sex with you. Even if you say it from a place of love and respect, she's going to take it as obligation and it's going to tack on the resentment.

I shared your story with my wife, we've been having crazy teenager sex for a few weeks and she knows I have absolutely no complaints in that department right now. I discussed with her how that subject could be approached and essentially the response was, no matter how you phrase it, she's going to feel obligated into it and it's going to turn her off. About the only way to say it where she didn't get discouraged was something like, "I really love you and really want to connect with you, this is how I feel connected. Just like I want to show you how much I love you and am working really hard on making you feel special, making love to you is what makes me feel special and connected." Now your wife knows what you need and doesn't feel obligated to have sex. If she has sex with you, you just got validation that she is looking to meet your needs.

I have related sex with my wife to doing the dishes (her love language is acts of service, you can sub this out for any activity your wife enjoys but you're not good at). I will not, under any circumstances, fantasize about doing dishes. I will not go into the shower and think about how awesome clean dishes are. I will not go online and look at websites for dishwashers. When my wife nagged me about how the dishes were always dirty and how I should help her out more by doing the dishes, I completely loathed doing them. I hated dishes. I wanted to use paper plates and silverware so I'd never have to do them.

When I figured out that my wife gets actual, real, pleasure out of having clean dishes. When that lightbulb went off for me and I realized that the feeling I get after screwing my wife is a similar feeling to what she gets when she comes home and the dishes are done and I'm helping her with the kids, I COULD NOT STOP DOING DISHES IF I TRIED. I love doing the dishes now!! That sounds so gay but I don't care, there is a rare moment in my house where there is a stray dish in the sink. If a big dinner is made, you will find me HAPPILY doing the dishes with a big crap-eating grin on my face like I'm getting a BJ. It's not just about running the heavy cycle and hearing the water noises, it's because I know that my wife is taking immense pleasure from what I'm doing. It's like I'm giving my wife a mind orgasm.

My wife (and probably yours) is the same way about sex. My wife doesn't fantasize about sex (or didn't at least). She won't go online and look at people screwing, she's not touching herself in the shower thinking of some big dildo inside of her. When I told my wife I wanted to have sex, she took as resentment and loathed it. She did stuff purposely to avoid sex, like not letting me touch or kiss her or hug her.

When my wife realized that I cared about her and wanted to please her, and she realized how sex made me feel, the lightbulb went off. She is like a sex-crazed monster now. She sends me dirty pictures and texts, she lets me do forbidden dangerous things to her in public places. She's jumping me around the house. It's not because she turned into a ****, it's because she figured out that it's how she meets my needs. We are both on the same page now, we both are 100% committed to meeting eachother's needs and that means that I WANT to help her around the house and with the kids, and she WANTS to have crazy end of world sex with me.

We got to that point though because we had a marriage-ending event to take us there. It was either we turned around and focused 100% or we were going to get divorced. You don't have that event, so it's going to take time and dedication for her to believe it. Stick with it, your time will come.
Same here we had a marriage ending event...just a different approach. We are doing the same things. Just wording it differently. BTW I do all the dishes too. In my case sex is not an ultimatum at all her choice.
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:23 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Well things went pretty good last night.

We spent a couple hours sharing each others needs and talking about how to better meet those needs for each other. There are obviously still walls to break down but it felt like a good open conversation.

Now the trick will be to be on the ball about meeting her needs. Even if I have to let some other things I'm doing around the house slip, I really need to meet these specific needs.

Sex was obviously one of my big needs. I tried not to make a huge deal about it but I did want to make it clear that it was something I needed and expected out of this relationship. I know it's not the most romantic thing but we decided to schedule sex for the next month. We compromised on the amount and settled on 4 times a month. This is a huge increase from the once every six weeks we have been doing.

I knew things must be going pretty well when we were scheduling the sex days on the calendar and she glanced up at the clock. She had a look on her face that seemed a little mischievous, so I said, "are you thinking of squeezing one in tonight?" She looks back down at the calendar and goes, "yeah I was thinking about it." So we ended up having sex.

It was a little awkward but still nice not to have to beg for it. I don't think scheduled sex is a great long term solution but hopefully it gets us feeling more connected. And honestly having a little heart drawn in on our family calendar for the days we will have sex is kind of hot. It's like our little secret and it's something to anticipate together. We threw in another rule (my idea) for spontaneous sex. It could still happen but if someone initiated and you didn't want to do it you could say, "sorry honey not right now but I'm looking forward to our sex night."

Anyhoo, it felt like progress. Obviously laying out the plan is a lot different than living it so we'll see how things go.
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:30 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Well things went pretty good last night.

We spent a couple hours sharing each others needs and talking about how to better meet those needs for each other. There are obviously still walls to break down but it felt like a good open conversation.

Now the trick will be to be on the ball about meeting her needs. Even if I have to let some other things I'm doing around the house slip, I really need to meet these specific needs.

Sex was obviously one of my big needs. I tried not to make a huge deal about it but I did want to make it clear that it was something I needed and expected out of this relationship. I know it's not the most romantic thing but we decided to schedule sex for the next month. We compromised on the amount and settled on 4 times a month. This is a huge increase from the once every six weeks we have been doing.

I knew things must be going pretty well when we were scheduling the sex days on the calendar and she glanced up at the clock. She had a look on her face that seemed a little mischievous, so I said, "are you thinking of squeezing one in tonight?" She looks back down at the calendar and goes, "yeah I was thinking about it." So we ended up having sex.

It was a little awkward but still nice not to have to beg for it. I don't think scheduled sex is a great long term solution but hopefully it gets us feeling more connected. And honestly having a little heart drawn in on our family calendar for the days we will have sex is kind of hot. It's like our little secret and it's something to anticipate together. We threw in another rule (my idea) for spontaneous sex. It could still happen but if someone initiated and you didn't want to do it you could say, "sorry honey not right now but I'm looking forward to our sex night."

Anyhoo, it felt like progress. Obviously laying out the plan is a lot different than living it so we'll see how things go.
smthumbup::smthumbup
I am soooo happy for you!! That is such a HUGE step in the right direction!!!! BTW the scheduled sex is something that MC usually suggest so scheduled or not it is a connection!!!

KEEP ON CONNECTING!!!! (emotionally too!!)
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:43 PM   #90 (permalink)
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smthumbup::smthumbup
I am soooo happy for you!! That is such a HUGE step in the right direction!!!! BTW the scheduled sex is something that MC usually suggest so scheduled or not it is a connection!!!

KEEP ON CONNECTING!!!! (emotionally too!!)
Honestly I think sharing her needs openly was so new to her that she probably only scratched the surface. None of the things she mentioned were deep emotional needs that weren't being met. Most of them that she shared she would say, "actually you're doing pretty good on this." or "This actually hasn't been an issue for awhile." The deep stuff is in there somewhere. I just have to show her she can trust me with them.
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