Only trouble is that I'm not sure she saw Tuesday as a "good" night. I thought maybe she was being a little playful but she might have really just wanted to get the sex out of the way for the rest of the week.
She may not see them as fun, sexy, secret days just annoying days. Days where if she doesn't say anything she might be able to get by without having to do anything. She can always claim she forgot (she has a pretty bad memory) and, "oh well" guess we'll have to wait until next week.
Point is, we should both be trying to reconnect. We should both be looking at those hearts as opportunities to be together, to share each other, to meet each other's needs.
Maybe I'm asking too much, too soon.
HMM Balance, your comment sort of puzzles me?!?!? Don't you know your wife? Why would you say may be was just getting the sex out of the way for the week? From what you said, it seemed like she actually connected with you and wanted to have sex.
Anyway, you are correct that is both of your jobs to reconnect, but remember sex is on your list not hers. Are you trying to keep communicating with her...NOT just asking for sex.... Speaking as one of the women who needs to have her engine started before you can drive across country, take it slow, and talk playfully/caringly throughout the day (remembering her list).
Bottom line.. go slow...and don't expect anything at first....PATIENCE!!!!! good luck and hang in there!!!
When she would ask about having more kids I would generally say things like, "I don't know" "I'm content with the amount of kids we have" "I don't want to have another one right now, but maybe down the road."
Eventually I would get to the point where I would say OK lets have another one. However, two years ago I was a little more adamant about it because of the insurance issue. I probably came down a little to hard on the issue and she's been hurting ever since.
I honestly do not know why it is such a big deal for her. Maybe a lot of her identity is tied into being a mother and she felt I was threatening that. I tried to get her to explain to me why this seemed like such a huge issue but she just says it's how she feels and she can't explain it.
HMM Balance, your comment sort of puzzles me?!?!? Don't you know your wife? Why would you say may be was just getting the sex out of the way for the week? From what you said, it seemed like she actually connected with you and wanted to have sex.
I'd like to think I know my wife, but she has stated before that she often "goes along" with stuff that she really doesn't want to do. So now i'm never 100% sure what she is really thinking.
Can you explain a bit more why she is devastated over your talking about being done with children? Does she want more? Think that means you don't love your third child? Think you are toying with her?
The rest of your discussion seems promising.
You need to find out WHY it bothers her. What is the underlying reason she is upset? Communicate your thoughts and feelings with as much empathy as you can muster.
I would certainly not suggest having more kids if your relationship is not rock solid. Maybe mention this to her as an incentive to take everything into overdrive. "I am OK with another child but only if our relationship is rock solid. Here's what we need to do to get there."
But honestly, if you don't WANT another child, then you need to be honest about it and not lead her on. It sounds like maybe you were wishy washy about it earlier and she doesn't know where you stand, so she got her hopes up and then was disappointed.
I did talk about getting a vasectomy two years ago because we weren't using any BC. We got into a pretty big fight. She said she didn't want me to do it and no doctor would do it without her consent. I got angry and said I was sure I could find one that would.
It was stupid and I really didn't mean it to get all crazy. I was just trying to have an open, honest conversation about how many children we were going to have.
I apologized the next day and told her I wasn't going to run off and get a vasectomy (I never did). I told her that I had wanted to share my concerns with her but that she had shut down/devalued everything that I was trying to share. The result was I got defensive and angry.
Anyway, she doesn't know how to move forward with our relationship if I'm going to continue changing my mind about having kids.
I'd like to think I know my wife, but she has stated before that she often "goes along" with stuff that she really doesn't want to do. So now i'm never 100% sure what she is really thinking.
YUP, I hear ya!!! No offense but definitely YUP.... I don't even think she's 100% sure of what she really is thinking!!! I guess just wait and see what happens after Thursday counseling session? IDK, puzzling...but again best thing to do is just keeeeeeeeep talking!!! But you know it doesn't matter if everyone on TAM is confused about your relationship as long as you and your SO get it...that's all that matters(keep us updated though)!!!
You need to find out WHY it bothers her. What is the underlying reason she is upset? Communicate your thoughts and feelings with as much empathy as you can muster.
I would certainly not suggest having more kids if your relationship is not rock solid. Maybe mention this to her as an incentive to take everything into overdrive. "I am OK with another child but only if our relationship is rock solid. Here's what we need to do to get there."
But honestly, if you don't WANT another child, then you need to be honest about it and not lead her on. It sounds like maybe you were wishy washy about it earlier and she doesn't know where you stand, so she got her hopes up and then was disappointed.
I didn't mean to be "wishy-washy" to me it was always a difficult question to answer. I would answer honestly and say, "no I don't feel like having anymore." How could I know that my feelings would change in two to three years?
I have mentioned the relationship status as a reason for not having more kids. I told her we need to focus on getting us back to a good place before we have all the stress and distraction of a new baby. But, like I said all the reasons I gave her were shut down.
The ironic thing is that now she is so mad at me that she says she doesn't want to have another baby with me.
I did talk about getting a vasectomy two years ago because we weren't using any BC. We got into a pretty big fight. She said she didn't want me to do it and no doctor would do it without her consent. I got angry and said I was sure I could find one that would.
It was stupid and I really didn't mean it to get all crazy. I was just trying to have an open, honest conversation about how many children we were going to have.
I apologized the next day and told her I wasn't going to run off and get a vasectomy (I never did). I told her that I had wanted to share my concerns with her but that she had shut down/devalued everything that I was trying to share. The result was I got defensive and angry.
Anyway, she doesn't know how to move forward with our relationship if I'm going to continue changing my mind about having kids.
It sounds like she's more upset not about the actual having kids but about the arguing itself (if you can understand what I'm saying) ... Now you say you wanted to have an open and honest conversation...was it also considerate???... because open, honest and rude or sarcastic communication doesn't count.
When she would ask about having more kids I would generally say things like, "I don't know" "I'm content with the amount of kids we have" "I don't want to have another one right now, but maybe down the road."
Eventually I would get to the point where I would say OK lets have another one. However, two years ago I was a little more adamant about it because of the insurance issue. I probably came down a little to hard on the issue and she's been hurting ever since.
I honestly do not know why it is such a big deal for her. Maybe a lot of her identity is tied into being a mother and she felt I was threatening that. I tried to get her to explain to me why this seemed like such a huge issue but she just says it's how she feels and she can't explain it.
Sounds to me like your wife really does have you on the hook. You are right in their with her and can’t see the wood for the trees. For example she may well be playing you or punishing you for an offence from times gone by.
You need to get your head out of the wood because you are paying way too much attention to detail and responding to it. Some wives really can play their husbands that way as it keeps them way off balance (no pun intended). You have to uncover her motivation for saying such things to you. She’s getting something out of it that she’s not declaring which means she’ll have a hidden agenda.
In way you have to take yourself out of the dynamics that go on between the two of you. You need to develop the capability of detaching and observing yourself and your wife at the same time as you are interacting with her.
And when you do that you will start to see things that were totally invisible to you before and change will begin to happen. To learn how to do these things read Awareness (Anthony de Mello) it is a fascinating lesson that he teaches and he teaches it well. It is a spiritual book (East and West) but not Religious.
I do want everyone to understand that I LOVE my children. Each one of them is amazing and precious in their own way. I don't regret having my kids. I am happy and content with the family I have. I just want us to level out and be stable. We have had each of our children at a point when things in our lives were stable and my wife and I were connected. That is not how things feel now.
It sounds like she's more upset not about the actual having kids but about the arguing itself (if you can understand what I'm saying) ... Now you say you wanted to have an open and honest conversation...was it also considerate???... because open, honest and rude or sarcastic communication doesn't count.
Does trying to be considerate count?
This is how I remember the conversation (I'm 50% sure it's exactly how it happened). I started by very calmly telling her I was concerned because we were having sex without any BC. I did not feel like I was ready to have another baby. I then used feeling words to express why I did not want to have another baby, "I feel stressed about meeting every bodies needs." "I feel worried about the insurance." etc. I then shared some of my concerns from a more logistical angle.
Her body language through all this was arms crossed with a frown on her face. Then for each "concern" I had she would tell me either that it didn't matter or that it was just me being stupid or being scared.
So then I got angry and I did get sarcastic and probably rude. And, like I said, threatening to go get the vasectomy. I just felt so unheard. It's such a huge decision and it seemed like I had no say in the matter at all. It was very frustrating. I would say I really did put some thought into it and I started out pretty good but lost it once she put up her wall.
This is how I remember the conversation (I'm 50% sure it's exactly how it happened). I started by very calmly telling her I was concerned because we were having sex without any BC. I did not feel like I was ready to have another baby. I then used feeling words to express why I did not want to have another baby, "I feel stressed about meeting every bodies needs." "I feel worried about the insurance." etc. I then shared some of my concerns from a more logistical angle.
Her body language through all this was arms crossed with a frown on her face. Then for each "concern" I had she would tell me either that it didn't matter or that it was just me being stupid or being scared.
So then I got angry and I did get sarcastic and probably rude. And, like I said, threatening to go get the vasectomy. I just felt so unheard. It's such a huge decision and it seemed like I had no say in the matter at all. It was very frustrating. I would say I really did put some thought into it and I started out pretty good but lost it once she put up her wall.
I have the same problem communicating with my wife. We men are rational logical creatures. Our wives are not. She is responding negatively to your well though out rational arguments because she has a lot of resentment and anger towards you. As AFEH said, you both have to work very hard to break those negative patterns of thinking, it takes time.
My wife and I's relationship is really great now, but we still are working on breaking the negative cycle when we communicate. It's a daily struggle, but every day we both work on it it gets a little better.
What helped me is when my counselor heard us go through an argument, she said, "What you said was very well spoken and very well thought out, it would be hard to argue with it, but there is no empathy when you talk to your wife." Your wife probably doesn't care about your argument being rational, she wants to know that you care about her feelings and want to nurture and protect her. Try to make that, and unconditional love, the focus before you say anything.
If she gets upset, it's very easy to strike back or get riled up. Instead, observe and comment on her feelings (much like you would do to your children). I asked my wife a simple question last night about dirty clothes, with no malice behind it, she got really upset and started saying, "Why would you ask me that? It's so rude that you would accuse me of doing that." The old me would have flown off the handle, but I said, very calmly, "I understand that comment came off as accusatory and made you feel stupid, that wasn't my intention, I think you are great, I just wanted to see if there was a reason I shouldn't use the hamper." I could see the anger drifting away and it was one of those moments where you just acknowledge how much progress has been made in your relationship.
As the resentment fades, you get more and more slack (and she will get more from you as well). But it takes real hard work to break those negative patterns. I mean you've been arguing and fighting with your wife in a set way for many years, your arguing routine is probably involuntary now. You have to take active steps to be empathetic and understanding instead of trying to get your point across. As the man, your response can have a huge impact in your wife's attitude.
As the resentment fades, you get more and more slack (and she will get more from you as well). But it takes real hard work to break those negative patterns. I mean you've been arguing and fighting with your wife in a set way for many years, your arguing routine is probably involuntary now. You have to take active steps to be empathetic and understanding instead of trying to get your point across. As the man, your response can have a huge impact in your wife's attitude.
Thank you, I think you are absolutely right. Our MC was trying to get us to give each other more slack and to empathize with each other more.
During that conversation I did acknowledge that she would feel hurt and that I knew it would be hard to give up the idea of having more kids, but it was probably to rehearsed and ended up sounding insincere.
So does anyone have any pointers on arguing with empathy? How do you approach a huge disagreement with your spouse in a considerate way? It often feel like my W doesn't feel like I am being considerate unless I change my mind and go along with whatever it was she wanted. How can I get my voice heard while still making her feel cared for?
Re: My Basic Expectations 
take it slow, and talk playfully/caringly throughout the day (remembering her list).
