Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do - Page 2 - Talk About Marriage
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post #16 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 03:00 PM
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Re: Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do

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Originally Posted by moth-into-flame View Post
Thanks folks. I still have not responded to him. I think I'll just leave it and probably let him fade away. Sucks - we had a lot of good times and he's such a massive musical talent - we made some amazing music together. And he's such a smart guy - but yeah, he's proved to be of low moral character. Kind of a painful loss tbh.

If he keeps pushing, I'll have to tell him why. I'm SURE he knows I know.

Was he testing parameters with me - seeing how far he could push me? Or was I not even in the thought process, and it was purely the compulsion? Maybe both? I guess ultimately it doesn't matter the reason. All that matters is it's a deal breaker for me. I have tight boundaries, especially after being cheated on by my exww. Zero tolerance for deceit and any form of abuse. ZERO.
sounds to me like your analysis is spot on. Probably both. pushing boundaries of what you would accept/gloss over to still be friends with him. Stealing from stores and strangers escalates to stealing from friends right under their noses. That probably adds to the rush, that of course you know it was him, and there's still no consequences.

I agree with other posters that you should get him out of your personal life. Not a good friend to have.

As far as your professional life, you might even be able to continue to play music with him, if you were careful. Lock on your guitar case (or whatever you play) don't meet at your house. Don't meet somewhere he could steal something and it would get blamed on you. You can still play good music with sucky people, just mitigate your risks.
IMO, if we refuse to interact at all with people who are flawed, then we shrink our circle down to almost nothing. Everyone's got issues. Just be aware that he's not going to change unless he gets help, and act accordingly.

Forget enough to get over it, remember enough so it doesn't happen again.
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post #17 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 06:51 AM
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Re: Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do

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Originally Posted by moth-into-flame View Post
The only thing preventing me from pulling the trigger is the extremely minute possibility that he didn't take it. But past history, his reaction to seeing it, my gut, and the backpack remark...does anyone think it's possible he didn't? I mean man, all the signs are there...but like I said, I don't have actual video evidence or a confession. Imagine if he didn't - I would feel awful. But I think there's maybe like a 5% chance he didn't.

I mean really, would anyone here who is innocent reply "I don't think so but let me check my backpack", then not respond??
"Kleptomania is a serious mental health disorder that can cause much emotional pain to you and your loved ones if not treated.

Kleptomania is a type of impulse control disorder — a disorder that's characterized by problems with emotional or behavioral self-control. If you have an impulse control disorder, you have difficulty resisting the temptation or drive to perform an act that's excessive or harmful to you or someone else.

Many people with kleptomania live lives of secret shame because they're afraid to seek mental health treatment. Although there's no cure for kleptomania, treatment with medication or psychotherapy may be able to help end the cycle of compulsive stealing." - Mayo Clinic


He has a compulsion and some underlying mental issues, and he's a long time close friend of yours. The best thing to do would to be a true friend to him, IMO. He clearly has issues and needs help, and that's what friends are for.

So tell him nicely, gently, that it's obvious he swiped your piece of gear, and that you will forgive him, provided he doesn't do it again - because friends don't steal from friends. Then ask him if he needs help in some way.

I've dealt with OCD for my entire adult life. I'm not a klepto, but I can understand the compulsion aspect of it, and it sucks. FWIW, none of my OCD traits involve anything illegal, immoral or dangerous. Mine are generally avoidance and superstition-related, and you wouldn't know it unless I told you. But sometimes they manifest in ways that you can't hide.

It's just a 'thing'. Friends are worth more than that. He needs help, and that's what friends are for.

Last edited by alexm; 11-24-2016 at 06:56 AM.
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post #18 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 03:44 PM
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Re: Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do

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He knows I am a man who does not put up with betrayal.
Obviously you both know you will or this thread would be titled, "My exfriend stole from me - Told him to fvck off" You know he's guilty but you're inventing a million reasons in your head for why there might be a 0.01% chance he's not and clinging onto it for dear life.

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So - any advice? A lot of people have said they wouldn't be his friend just based on the thievery and fraud he's committed prior to this. I'm conflicted about that. What would you do? Confront? Is there any point? I highly doubt he'd admit it. Sooner or later I'll have to either get together with him, ask him, or just ignore him and let him fade away. I hate this. Truly at a loss.
Don't waste time on a confront. He's a thief. No one says, "Let me check my backpack, I forgot if I took something without permission" who isn't shamefully guilty. OBVIOUSLY if you consider that statement and a history of being a KLEPTOMANIAC, almost certain is a guarantee.

Go dark on him. NO CONTACT, delete and block all social media. Avoid him like the plague. If you ever run into him in a social situation and he confronts you tell him, "Hope the gear you STOLE was worth our friendship, go to hell" and walk away.

“When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” - Maya Angelou
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post #19 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 05:30 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do

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Obviously you both know you will or this thread would be titled, "My exfriend stole from me - Told him to fvck off" You know he's guilty but you're inventing a million reasons in your head for why there might be a 0.01% chance he's not and clinging onto it for dear life.



Don't waste time on a confront. He's a thief. No one says, "Let me check my backpack, I forgot if I took something without permission" who isn't shamefully guilty. OBVIOUSLY if you consider that statement and a history of being a KLEPTOMANIAC, almost certain is a guarantee.

Go dark on him. NO CONTACT, delete and block all social media. Avoid him like the plague. If you ever run into him in a social situation and he confronts you tell him, "Hope the gear you STOLE was worth our friendship, go to hell" and walk away.
Nah, I have gone dark. I won't bother confronting. I'm done. It's just painful to lose a friend - or rather have a friend betray you and force you to kill it off. Just the like exww - she left me no choice but to walk away. Good point on the shamefully guilty part - no doubt, I could sense his guilt when I saw him a couple days later (last time I saw him - this was August). What a tool. Oh well, his loss. I'll be just fine.
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post #20 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 08:37 PM
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Cool Re: Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do

He seems to know all of the "in's and out's" of taking advantage of your awfully good nature!

Time to part ways with such company!

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post #21 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 09:27 PM
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Re: Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do

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Originally Posted by moth-into-flame View Post
Nah, I have gone dark. I won't bother confronting. I'm done. It's just painful to lose a friend - or rather have a friend betray you and force you to kill it off. Just the like exww - she left me no choice but to walk away. Good point on the shamefully guilty part - no doubt, I could sense his guilt when I saw him a couple days later (last time I saw him - this was August). What a tool. Oh well, his loss. I'll be just fine.
You could send him the instruction manual and warranty card, with a note saying "you might need this" That would be clear enough.
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post #22 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 09:29 PM
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Re: Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do

People like him often come from either poor homes or homes that did not provide many material things to the children.

He may have grown up with other children who had more. He wanted more and and the only way he could get them was by stealing.

He is likely a person who does not take no for an answer. He has poor impulse control. Throw in a little bit of inferiority complex and you have baked his sad cake.

He has stolen things his whole life and finds it hard to stop. Stealing? He feels entitled more than he feels the thrill of stealing from another.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......................................

He is a Slyborg trying to find the[missing/defective] parts to make him complete again.

The missing parts are in his head. His parents never put the nickels in his slot for him to complete his 18 year identity tour. Put in a nickel now, you get a slug as change. He remains unfinished.

He did complete his childhood indentured servitude.



Outgrow this poor man.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

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post #23 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-25-2016, 07:25 AM
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Re: Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do

Did anybody read my reply wherein I outlined that this man has a mental disease and needs help?

There's a huge difference between a thief who steals from people for material gain, and a person who suffers from a mental issue and has a compulsion to do it, along with the ensuing shame.

If a long and otherwise good friendship is worth throwing away at the expense of a material item and one's ability to lack empathy towards said person, so be it. That's your prerogative.

But please, recognize the difference between a thief with no morals and a person who has a very real mental disorder that causes them to do things that they don't want to do. The act itself likely causes much mental anguish in this guy whenever he does it. It just so happens that his compulsion revolves around something that directly affects the people around him in a negative way. If his compulsion where harmless, he'd be viewed differently, and that's a shame.
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post #24 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-25-2016, 07:45 AM
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Re: Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do

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Originally Posted by SunCMars View Post
People like him often come from either poor homes or homes that did not provide many material things to the children.

He may have grown up with other children who had more. He wanted more and and the only way he could get them was by stealing.

He is likely a person who does not take no for an answer. He has poor impulse control. Throw in a little bit of inferiority complex and you have baked his sad cake.

He has stolen things his whole life and finds it hard to stop. Stealing? He feels entitled more than he feels the thrill of stealing from another.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......................................

He is a Slyborg trying to find the[missing/defective] parts to make him complete again.

The missing parts are in his head. His parents never put the nickels in his slot for him to complete his 18 year identity tour. Put in a nickel now, you get a slug as change. He remains unfinished.

He did complete his childhood indentured servitude.



Outgrow this poor man.
Usually I like your posts and insights, but with this, I couldn't disagree more.

The reasons why people develop OCD is as varied and as complicated as anything. I developed fairly mild OCD some 25+ years ago, due to a lot of anxiety over things at that time. I couldn't for the life of me pinpoint exactly where and when it started, but I have a rough idea of the timeline. It just manifested itself slowly, and luckily for me, not in a way that affects others. Basically for me, I played a sport at a high level when I was younger, and superstitions and anxiety started to manifest at that time, due to the pressure to perform.

But that's the thing - sometimes it does manifest in ways that are negative towards others, like in this case. There's no rhyme or reason for it, other than it simply became his 'thing'. The why's are irrelevant. It just is.

One thing I CAN tell you is that it's not due to any one particular negative trait in a person. Nobody can sit here and say this guy developed this way because he was a small-time thief when he was younger, or he was in with a bad crowd, or anything else of that sort. It's logical for one to say this (because we require logic in everything), but unless you suffer from OCD or are a psychiatrist, then you really don't know, and it's all speculation for speculation's sake. We want to KNOW why somebody is the way he is. That helps us decide if they're worthy or not.

My OCD is hidden from the people around me, and I'm lucky. It doesn't really affect my life in any way other than it can be annoying at times. My wife is aware of it, but again, it doesn't affect her at all, so it doesn't matter. I now play this sport at a recreational level, but the anxiety is still there, even though the outcome no longer really matters. Sometimes it's difficult for me to fully enjoy playing it, due to the habits I developed when I was 14 and 15, but c'est la vie.

This guy's OCD, unfortunately, has a negative effect on those around him, and don't think he doesn't realize this. In fact, he's fully aware, and it becomes a vicious circle - trust me on that one. If you think he doesn't feel remorse or shame (especially shame), you're kidding yourself. He doesn't WANT to do these things, he takes no pride in it (precisely the opposite, in fact) and that causes more and more anxiety in him.

If OP doesn't want him in his life any longer, that's fine. It's hard to blame him. But for the rest of you replying in this thread, calling him names, saying he's a terrible person, f*** him, he's a bad friend, etc etc etc - walk a mile, as they say. And be lucky you don't have a mental disorder that causes such anguish in you.
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post #25 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-25-2016, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do

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Originally Posted by SunCMars View Post
People like him often come from either poor homes or homes that did not provide many material things to the children.

He may have grown up with other children who had more. He wanted more and and the only way he could get them was by stealing.

He is likely a person who does not take no for an answer. He has poor impulse control. Throw in a little bit of inferiority complex and you have baked his sad cake.

He has stolen things his whole life and finds it hard to stop. Stealing? He feels entitled more than he feels the thrill of stealing from another.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......................................

He is a Slyborg trying to find the[missing/defective] parts to make him complete again.

The missing parts are in his head. His parents never put the nickels in his slot for him to complete his 18 year identity tour. Put in a nickel now, you get a slug as change. He remains unfinished.

He did complete his childhood indentured servitude.



Outgrow this poor man.
He was not wanting growing up - he wasn't rich or anything, but by no means poor either. Middle class.
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post #26 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-25-2016, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do

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Did anybody read my reply wherein I outlined that this man has a mental disease and needs help?

There's a huge difference between a thief who steals from people for material gain, and a person who suffers from a mental issue and has a compulsion to do it, along with the ensuing shame.

If a long and otherwise good friendship is worth throwing away at the expense of a material item and one's ability to lack empathy towards said person, so be it. That's your prerogative.

But please, recognize the difference between a thief with no morals and a person who has a very real mental disorder that causes them to do things that they don't want to do. The act itself likely causes much mental anguish in this guy whenever he does it. It just so happens that his compulsion revolves around something that directly affects the people around him in a negative way. If his compulsion where harmless, he'd be viewed differently, and that's a shame.
Sorry, I don't view life this way. It's the same knee jerk reaction people have when someone rapes a child or murders (obviously that's a whole other level...) - the politically correct response now is to immediately jump to mental illness. Not everyone who is a sh*tty human being is plagued with some sad mental disorder beyond their control. Some people just suck and are takers who like to see what they can get away with. He's not some poor sob with PTSD or something. He's a shady guy who likes cocaine and stealing things.

I have a crazy ex wife to deal with, 2 kids from a broken home to raise, a father who I no longer speak to because he's a pedophile and tried to murder his own father with a butcher knife, and an entire side of my family who shuns me because I am not a Jehovah's Witness. Sorry, but I just don't have time or the mental wherewithal for another project.

I don't feel the need to sh/t on him or yell at him or humiliate him - but it's not my responsibility to get him to stop stealing and committing fraud.
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post #27 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-25-2016, 09:59 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do

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Usually I like your posts and insights, but with this, I couldn't disagree more.

The reasons why people develop OCD is as varied and as complicated as anything. I developed fairly mild OCD some 25+ years ago, due to a lot of anxiety over things at that time. I couldn't for the life of me pinpoint exactly where and when it started, but I have a rough idea of the timeline. It just manifested itself slowly, and luckily for me, not in a way that affects others. Basically for me, I played a sport at a high level when I was younger, and superstitions and anxiety started to manifest at that time, due to the pressure to perform.

But that's the thing - sometimes it does manifest in ways that are negative towards others, like in this case. There's no rhyme or reason for it, other than it simply became his 'thing'. The why's are irrelevant. It just is.

One thing I CAN tell you is that it's not due to any one particular negative trait in a person. Nobody can sit here and say this guy developed this way because he was a small-time thief when he was younger, or he was in with a bad crowd, or anything else of that sort. It's logical for one to say this (because we require logic in everything), but unless you suffer from OCD or are a psychiatrist, then you really don't know, and it's all speculation for speculation's sake. We want to KNOW why somebody is the way he is. That helps us decide if they're worthy or not.

My OCD is hidden from the people around me, and I'm lucky. It doesn't really affect my life in any way other than it can be annoying at times. My wife is aware of it, but again, it doesn't affect her at all, so it doesn't matter. I now play this sport at a recreational level, but the anxiety is still there, even though the outcome no longer really matters. Sometimes it's difficult for me to fully enjoy playing it, due to the habits I developed when I was 14 and 15, but c'est la vie.

This guy's OCD, unfortunately, has a negative effect on those around him, and don't think he doesn't realize this. In fact, he's fully aware, and it becomes a vicious circle - trust me on that one. If you think he doesn't feel remorse or shame (especially shame), you're kidding yourself. He doesn't WANT to do these things, he takes no pride in it (precisely the opposite, in fact) and that causes more and more anxiety in him.

If OP doesn't want him in his life any longer, that's fine. It's hard to blame him. But for the rest of you replying in this thread, calling him names, saying he's a terrible person, f*** him, he's a bad friend, etc etc etc - walk a mile, as they say. And be lucky you don't have a mental disorder that causes such anguish in you.
I simply do not agree that every person that does these things is suffering from some malady and that they deserve sympathy, compassion and help. If everyone viewed the world this way, nobody would ever be convicted of a crime. You are advocating that nobody is responsible for their actions. Zero culpability. Zero responsibility. Zero blame. It actually really bothers me. The hug a thug mentality. "They don't to be punished or condemned - they need our HELP and our LOVE!" Rubbish. They need to be held accountable for their actions.

I suffer from anxiety and have since I was a little kid. I've been treated badly by my family and my father being a pedophile destroyed part of my soul and messed me up in a BIG way. I'm very, very damaged from it. Being shunned by my maternal grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins etc was damaging too. Everyone goes through crap in their lives. I still know right from wrong and act accordingly (no, I do not claim to be perfect - far from it). Obviously there are people who have actual mental illness and they need treatment. This guy isn't one of them.

He needs to see that actions have consequences. It's not my job to show him those consequences - but it is my job to protect myself and protect my boundaries.
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post #28 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-25-2016, 10:29 AM
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Re: Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do

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Originally Posted by alexm View Post
Usually I like your posts and insights, but with this, I couldn't disagree more.

It's logical for one to say this (because we require logic in everything), but unless you suffer from OCD or are a psychiatrist, then you really don't know, and it's all speculation for speculation's sake. We want to KNOW why somebody is the way he is. That helps us decide if they're worthy or not.

OP doesn't want him in his life any longer, that's fine. It's hard to blame him. But for the rest of you replying in this thread, calling him names, saying he's a terrible person, f*** him, he's a bad friend, etc etc etc - walk a mile, as they say. And be lucky you don't have a mental disorder that causes such anguish in you.
Thank you for your kind response. Thank you for sharing your own issue with OCD.

Yes, what we all write is speculation. Mine, often, is more intuitive rather than logical [as you stated].

If we do not speculate then TAM is kaput.

Everyday conversations would also be rendered moot and useless if speculation {based on limited facts, past memories, induction/deduction, intuition} were excluded from use.

This blog is for venting....good oxygen, sewer gas, and nitrous-oxide.

The name calling? Yea, [my use of] is excessive....but makes for a sharp point that OP's immediately feel. The Hope? It alerts them to the jabbing flaws in others. They move away from that which is the real pain...not my words.

I want OP to outgrow his flawed former friend.....not to hate him.

Sarcasm poignantly delivered on the tip of a spear. Sometimes works, sometimes sails over heads.

Your input is also insightful...thanks....Sun setting in Mid-West.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #29 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-25-2016, 11:38 AM
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Re: Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do

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Originally Posted by moth-into-flame View Post
I simply do not agree that every person that does these things is suffering from some malady and that they deserve sympathy, compassion and help.
Everyone who does what your friend did is somehow screwy. Who knows why, it doesn't really matter. You're not going to Nice him into being an honest person. Maybe some form of counseling would help, but it isn't your duty to force him into it.

A good friend of mine growing up became a klepto by about 5th grade. Shoplifting escalated into stealing from his friends, including me. At one point he broke into our house while nobody was there and took a couple of my cool toys. Though he denied it, other acquaintances confirmed he had matching items which I know he never had before. Nothing I could do about it, and it cost me a couple of other close friends. The klepto was a fun cool kid to hang around with. But he turned on those kids too, and they eventually abandoned him.

I just looked him up on the internet and he is still having significant trouble with the police.

He came from a seemingly good home, upper middle class etc. Who knows why he did/does these things.

I think we can feel sorry for these people but it doesn't make it our obligation to fix them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by moth-into-flame View Post
He needs to see that actions have consequences. It's not my job to show him those consequences - but it is my job to protect myself and protect my boundaries.
Yup, 100%. If you had proof of him stealing it, I would advocate filing a police report. But since you don't, the best consequence is to cut off all contact.
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post #30 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-28-2016, 07:49 PM
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Re: Almost certain friend stole from me - not sure what to do

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We have been friends since 2006 - when we were paired together as musicians to play an outdoor festival. We became very close friends. He's a bit of a troubled soul, and will intermittently disappear into depression or anxiety, and sometimes we won't talk for weeks. Smart guy, funny, but has some issues. One thing I've learned about him over the past few years is that he's a bit of a klepto. He talked about filling up a grocery cart and just walking out without paying - several times. One time getting busted. He has talked about insurance fraud (admitted to it), all sorts of scams and swiping stuff - he once walked out of a music store with the store's Macbook Pro under his shirt. So some fairly big theft. It's purely a compulsion - he's not poor or anything.

Recently he told me he lost his job - a high paying gig. He didn't say why. A mutual friend told me he was fired for some sort of prescription fraud involving work. I never got the details. I know he had foot surgery a little bit prior and was on bed rest and taking narcotic 'scrips...maybe he got addicted, maybe not. Not sure. Could be just more compulsive behavior.

Anyway, a couple months back, he and the mutual friend came over. We got to drinking beer and having a nice visit. I had a small piece of gear out on the kitchen island - when he saw it his eyes lit up and he raved about how much he liked it. After they left, it was gone. I looked everywhere - I even went through the garbage in the kitchen and through the bins outside (recycle and garbage). I tore the house apart. I texted them both the next morning asking if they had seen it. The mutual friend said no he had not. However klepto buddy's response was "I don't think so, but I'll check my back back". Huh? Odd response - my spidey senses were already tingling and that was a red flag. I never heard back from him about his backpack search - but I asked the mutual friend - who told me second hand "yeah he said he checked and it's not there". Again - weird - why would he not tell me that himself? I told the mutual friend my suspicions - and he agreed it was possible and that our friend is "on a bad path" and "doing some bad ****" (this was the mutual friend that told me about his firing). Basically he said he wouldn't put it past him.

Past behavior, the shadiness and remark about the backpack (?? WTF), the circumstances and my gut tell me he swiped it.

I saw him only once since - a couple days later at a jam he hosted. He was overly nice and a bit ass kissy.He's sent me a couple texts here and there since, and I've been very, very cool (as in not saying much). He for sure knows something is up as it is very out of character for me to respond that way. He hasn't asked what's wrong or anything. He asked last week if I wanted to get together for a hang out - I didn't reply.

He knows I am a man who does not put up with betrayal. I will freeze you out of my life if you **** me over (ex my exww and my pos father). I have zero tolerance for someone who would steal from me like that. It's not the money or whatever - it's the betrayal and lack of respect. Why the hell would I want a friend like that?

This sucks - because I consider him one of my very best friends. But this is absolutely a deal breaker for me - but of course, I don't have video evidence or a confession. If I knew 100% he did it - that would be it - I'm done. Of course there's the minute possibility he didn't, but geez - I really don't think that's the case.

So - any advice? A lot of people have said they wouldn't be his friend just based on the thievery and fraud he's committed prior to this. I'm conflicted about that. What would you do? Confront? Is there any point? I highly doubt he'd admit it. Sooner or later I'll have to either get together with him, ask him, or just ignore him and let him fade away. I hate this. Truly at a loss.

you are surprised when a dishonest person is dishonest ? I don't know what to ****in say ?
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