Logically how can love exist? - Page 4 - Talk About Marriage
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post #46 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 12:14 PM
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Re: Logically how can love exist?

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The only love I've come to acknowledge and cherish is the love I share with me and my daughter, but even then I know it has its limits and is conditional, just like the "love" I have for my own immediate family. If it isn't pure, it isn't love. That's my belief. Did I love ex-wife? Did she love me in return? Meh, she only loved me because what I could give her, and me her - once the troubles hit all love is conditional. Nothing is for free, life is no fairytale.

So I live my life hardened, content with the freedom and none of the expectations of "love". My finances and my daughter's future is secured. No woman will threaten it.

Until now...

My recent girlfriend is defying my reality and belief systems, and I struggle to believe it, but I know that she believes it. She passes every test, tests that 99% of women I've dated failed. It was designed to make them fail, to keep myself justifying my emotional unavailability. Yet she passed. For a while it was great, come what may, I didn't care, just live life right?

Wrong...

Right now I am going to make a decision this year for semi-retirement, I'm finished pushing for the greens. I have my investments, I have my success. I don't need my income anymore, I am changing my lifestyle to pursue hobbies and passions. Which means... a lot less money. Will girlfriend cash out? Who knows, but when I have a risk, I like to deal with it head-on, remove or mitigate. Wait... this is a human being we are talking about!

Logical solution: Remove

I'm on the down-spiral, and I don't know anymore. I don't want to have her weighting on my decisions to pursue a new lifestyle. She gives me no pressure directly, but the sole fact that she's my girlfriend pressures me immensely. If the solution is not logical, if I am to stay with her, how do I deal with these thoughts?
It all boils down to being involved with a good women, not perfect, but one by your own assessment, as being very good. And, interfacing mentally and physically with her. Or, you can choose being alone with your "self important" thoughts. You can communicate and dance with her, or do the same with the image you see in your full length bathroom mirror. Easy choice for me. Those who travel alone, travel fastest. Those who have a good women on their arm travel in the heat of the day, and slowly. Those who travel alone do so rapidly and fleetingly in the cool night. Savor the light, avoid the dim light.
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post #47 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 02:08 PM
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Re: Logically how can love exist?

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Um, women test men all the time, especially in relationships.
Of course they do... and men as well.

My point was simply that as far as relationships go, "tests" and "healthy" don't seem to work well together.
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post #48 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 02:12 PM
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Re: Logically how can love exist?

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Of course they do... and men as well.

My point was simply that as far as relationships go, "tests" and "healthy" don't seem to work well together.
I disagree. Read this: https://therationalmale.com/tag/****-tests/
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post #49 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 02:30 PM
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Re: Logically how can love exist?

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Interesting article... the men I know who test their wives must never have read this.

Happy to give more input if you'd care to open your own thread on this?
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post #50 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 05:46 PM
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Re: Logically how can love exist?

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Yeah I don't even have a chance to miss her, since becoming bf/gf she's become stage 2, borderline stage 3... And she's a worrisome one when it comes to whether or not she accepts me or not, she accepts my goals (single freedom), yet her goals (marriage and kids) contradict mine, and she hasn't given me an answer of how that's going to work except for hoping she can "change my mind" and changing the topic and pulling our minds back to the present "enjoying what we have"

Bah!
Ugh. No way I would want to hook up with someone who was waiting around to change me into something else.

You might need to set her straight on that one.
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post #51 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-17-2017, 11:33 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Logically how can love exist?

Well I've talked to cuddlebunny, reassured my decisions. She supports me all the way, to the point of compromises. Guess she likes me alot more than what I give her credit for. I'll keep her around, but I don't trust that she won't leave. Won't emotionally invest, I'll just play along for now.

I'm starting a new road, she's either with me or she can move on. I would rather regret a broken heart, than regret not going after my dreams and passions. Life is short, my income will be reduced to 5% but I don't care. Anyway if I need more money can always sell.
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post #52 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-18-2017, 06:08 AM
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Re: Logically how can love exist?

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A woman who thinks she will be able to change a man is not a good thing, because for someone to really be able to love you, they need to accept you for who you are, not who they want you to be.
If she keeps going here.. she is going to be very hurt in the end... feeling she wasted so much of her life..
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post #53 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-18-2017, 07:50 AM
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Re: Logically how can love exist?

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Well I've talked to cuddlebunny, reassured my decisions. She supports me all the way, to the point of compromises. Guess she likes me alot more than what I give her credit for. I'll keep her around, but I don't trust that she won't leave. Won't emotionally invest, I'll just play along for now.

I'm starting a new road, she's either with me or she can move on. I would rather regret a broken heart, than regret not going after my dreams and passions. Life is short, my income will be reduced to 5% but I don't care. Anyway if I need more money can always sell.
Dude, your walls are sky high and at least half of you is determined to push away anyone who gets even slightly close to you.

You might advise that half to talk to the other half. Why do you want to keep her around? Is she just a toy for you to use until you grow bored? Or are you actually hoping for some real connection?

If it's connection you want, you'll have to lower the walls and stop the endless testing.
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post #54 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 04:21 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Logically how can love exist?

I honestly do not know what I truly want as in the end, each part of me wants different things. Part of me feels alive, another part of me won't compromise on freedom, etc. Undecided, it's too early.

Perhaps I'm just curious where this leads, if anything I can be as curious as my cat. She does as she wishes, I can't tell her what to do, she shares with me what she wants, but doesn't ask for much.

With her, I am satisfied - but she goes no further then what I'm willing to give her. If she decides it's not enough, she's free to go anytime. I'm done trying to "encourage" her to leave, it only makes her like me more and it hurts her, and I already made her cry once. Enough of that, any nails she steps on next will be her choice to make, I've made enough warnings.
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post #55 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 05:47 AM
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Re: Logically how can love exist?

You'll "keep her around?"

Oiy vey.

RD, I'm not having a go at you, but do you realize how disrespectful to her that reads? It's like she's a back scratcher - useful to have and better to have than not when there's an itch.

You used to be totally afraid of any woman turning you into a wallet. If you ever heard her say to another she was "keeping you around" you'd be going ballistic.

"If you deliberately plan on being less than you are capable of being, then I warn you that you'll be unhappy for the rest of your life."

~ Abraham Maslow
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post #56 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 07:40 AM
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Re: Logically how can love exist?

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I honestly do not know what I truly want as in the end, each part of me wants different things. Part of me feels alive, another part of me won't compromise on freedom, etc. Undecided, it's too early.

Perhaps I'm just curious where this leads, if anything I can be as curious as my cat. She does as she wishes, I can't tell her what to do, she shares with me what she wants, but doesn't ask for much.

With her, I am satisfied - but she goes no further then what I'm willing to give her. If she decides it's not enough, she's free to go anytime. I'm done trying to "encourage" her to leave, it only makes her like me more and it hurts her, and I already made her cry once. Enough of that, any nails she steps on next will be her choice to make, I've made enough warnings.
Maybe you aren't pushing her away literally and vocally, but you are still doing it in your heart. From what you're saying here, there's no way you will ever let her in, nor do you seem all that interested in knowing her either. So it's really just a question of whether she'll keep wanting to hang around you, and the degree to which you will make that difficult for her.

Your title question is whether love can exist, and I can see why you're asking it. For someone who refuses it, of course it can't. Love needs to be nurtured. It needs to be warm. I'll inevitably wither and die in such a frigid environment.

Absolutely, you must make your own decisions about how you want to live your life, what values are important to you, whether or not you even want to be in a relationship. These are all up to you. But if you should happen to notice a pattern where somehow all women aren't good enough, don't love in exactly the right way, are too shalllow or vain or selfish, ugly, or unworthy in some way, you should know that the actual solution to your problem can likely be found in the mirror.
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post #57 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 07:59 AM
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Re: Logically how can love exist?

I suppose...

* It is safer to be with her, rather than someone you might be inclined to be comfortable with and value deeply.

* Her verbal choice to wait for you to become available and open to the things she wants in her finite life is a relief to your ears, because, after all, if it is a sacrifice, it is her choice, not [yours]. If someone offers you the days of their life with no enforceable strings attached, who are you to say "No. I want you to first be in meaningful service to your values, rather than engaged in a fantasy." Say, if it were your daughter pursuing someone either not interested and attracted enough in her to share and realize some common dreams, would you still like the one accepting her into his/her orbit? (If the answer is no, then how are you really going to like yourself?)


I'm not judging (or so I like to think). Really, you seem like a thoughtful caring guy trying to consciously weigh the sometimes sh!tty choices life sometimes calls on us to make.

If you care enough about her to want to see if you can get to a point where you have compatible intents, then you are better off working consciously together, with a deadline and a plan for what happens after.

Consider how seductive is her offer to orbit you until you change. It's like a deal being made under the table between your biggest fears (of intimacy, interdependence, becoming vulnerable to another fragile and imperfect human being), and hers (fear that she's not good enough, not loveable, not going to find someone that can let her matter to .... and, she may be partial to the notion this is how love is supposed to feel if in her past her parents etc were just as elusive and just out of reach as you).

It is these dealings going on under the table that are the roadblock. Mitigate or remove. But, that requires shining a light on it and focus on it for the duration, and a conscious commitment from you both to see that task through. If one of you looks away and retreats into the more comfortable evasions, you're both screwed.

Working through this together, one way or another, is an opportunity isn't it?

"We are only here briefly, and in this moment I want to allow myself joy." -- Amy, from Spike Jonze's "Her"

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post #58 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 08:08 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Logically how can love exist?

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Maybe you aren't pushing her away literally and vocally, but you are still doing it in your heart. From what you're saying here, there's no way you will ever let her in, nor do you seem all that interested in knowing her either. So it's really just a question of whether she'll keep wanting to hang around you, and the degree to which you will make that difficult for her.

Your title question is whether love can exist, and I can see why you're asking it. For someone who refuses it, of course it can't. Love needs to be nurtured. It needs to be warm. I'll inevitably wither and die in such a frigid environment.

Absolutely, you must make your own decisions about how you want to live your life, what values are important to you, whether or not you even want to be in a relationship. These are all up to you. But if you should happen to notice a pattern where somehow all women aren't good enough, don't love in exactly the right way, are too shalllow or vain or selfish, ugly, or unworthy in some way, you should know that the actual solution to your problem can likely be found in the mirror.
Oh she's good enough alright, I already know I'm not. At the very least she deserves a chance, whether or not I fall for her is speculation. Not now, no way. First there must be trust. I'll give her the chance to earn it. It is also her choice to take the risk and make her own informed decisions despite knowing the issues we face.

Right now, no way I can give her what she wants ultimately, and not for maybe another 10 years unless I go backwards and back to the industry I'm sick of after bloody ten years. Biological clock? She's not ticking for some reason - she's at the right age for it! And yet again - as I mentioned, her choice!

Maybe it's her "present-minded" philosophy rubbing off on me, I don't know, but meh it's decided guys. I will respect her decision.
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post #59 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 03:38 PM
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Re: Logically how can love exist?

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At the very least she deserves a chance, whether or not I fall for her is speculation. Not now, no way. First there must be trust. I'll give her the chance to earn it.
I'm curious. What would it take for you to actually trust her?
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post #60 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 09:21 PM
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Re: Logically how can love exist?

RD,

I just reread my post above, and regret I didn't make clear in words and tone that it was all speculation on my part. I am often full of sh1t. (I can give references.)

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Maybe it's her "present-minded" philosophy rubbing off on me, I don't know, but meh it's decided guys. I will respect her decision.
People compartmentalize. It is not "present-minded" to stay in a relationship hoping the other person will change in the future, ignoring or at least discounting unjustly the degree of risk. That is called denial of a truth in the present.

Of course, who am I to say she hasn't properly factored the risk in; maybe she properly evaluates it day by day.

"We are only here briefly, and in this moment I want to allow myself joy." -- Amy, from Spike Jonze's "Her"
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