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Old 12-16-2011, 07:05 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Default Re: Too many threads about low sex drive

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To accept such a simplistic explanation automatically could cause many women in the situation of being married to a man with low libido to miss out on any hope of improving the situation. If a guy is in a relationship where he feels intimidated, criticised regularly, or just plain uncomfortable with his wife, sex is going to move way down on his priority list. When helping my brother through this difficult situation, I was amazed at how much information is out there about low libido husbands. Keep in mind that the psychological profiles these guys fit into usually make them less likely to participate in forums like this, where men make it sound like everyone is into porn.
If a man has low t-count he can seek help for taht.

Yes there are some cases in which a wife berates her husband. That would turn anyone off. And if she does not stop it then the marriage should probably end. The same goes in the case where a man bereates his wife.

Please give some examles of how a man is intimidated by his wife thus is justified in refusing sex with her.

In many cases where a man refuses to have sex with his wife, low libido is not the case. He is simply refusing to have sex with his wife and using other outlets like affairs and porn.
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:44 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Default Re: Too many threads about low sex drive

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If a man has low t-count he can seek help for taht.

Yes there are some cases in which a wife berates her husband. That would turn anyone off. And if she does not stop it then the marriage should probably end. The same goes in the case where a man bereates his wife.

Please give some examles of how a man is intimidated by his wife thus is justified in refusing sex with her.

In many cases where a man refuses to have sex with his wife, low libido is not the case. He is simply refusing to have sex with his wife and using other outlets like affairs and porn.
I didn't say that that low-sex marriages involved men with Low T, or that there is no treatment for low T. I was saying that making the summary that all men who fit into a category of low sex drive having to fit into categories of porn use, low T, PA, or cheating pretty much assures that the theory was postulated by a woman, and not a man who lives and breathes his own interpretation of his behaviors. Isn't is a little odd that a few women on a site can think that they understand something that most psychologists have barely scratched the surface of understanding? Do a quick google of what men really want and need for a healthy, vibrant, intimate relationship, and the answer becomes much more clear. Through no fault of their own, women often assume that men either fit into some stereotypical views, or they make assumptions based on what makes sense to them internally, as women. The google search will usually include the fact that men rather simplistically respond to a person who treats them like she admires him, respects him, and feels that he is the type of man who can fulfill her. Lock a guy into a marriage where these are missing, and a few men will lose their drive for sex with her. Their belief systems may prevent cheating and porn use.

My brother, with a tested T range that was off the charts high, contemplated divorce over the issue (they divorced later). We are close, so we talked about the progress with a psychologist who had a phd, specializing in male sexual problems. I read some of the handouts. I know it was just one clinician, but this woman said that relationship where the man felt devalued, with resentment from the wife, was the number one sex life demotivator for men who fit into the general category of professional men. She said that this profile made up most of her practice. His sex life was great for a number of years, but his wife's idea of together time was listing his faults. I would blame him just as much as her, but he admitted that since cheating, porn, etc were pathetic excuses, he realized that he just no longer wanted to have sex anymore. Now that he's divorced, he's perfectly normal in the sex department. I'm high drive, but I think the biggest difference is that my wife has a very positive attitude about sex, 'cus it certainly ain't me.

Regardless, as a person trained in software engineering, I recognize that sites like this tend to attract people with very consistent types of interests and tendencies, or at least they fit into a range of people who cross certain internal thresholds of sharing. A general caution is that when we read about how all women apparently cheat, all men apparently like porn and blowjobs galore, we should never let ourself make sterotypical assessments of the general human population based upon such a small sampling size as this site.
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:54 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Default Re: Too many threads about low sex drive

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To accept such a simplistic explanation automatically could cause many women in the situation of being married to a man with low libido to miss out on any hope of improving the situation. If a guy is in a relationship where he feels intimidated, criticised regularly, or just plain uncomfortable with his wife, sex is going to move way down on his priority list. When helping my brother through this difficult situation, I was amazed at how much information is out there about low libido husbands. Keep in mind that the psychological profiles these guys fit into usually make them less likely to participate in forums like this, where men make it sound like everyone is into porn.
Simplistic eh? In your example of the husband not wanting sex because she is overbearing is exactly what PA behavior is about. Instead of telling her what issues he has with her, he withholds.
Barring normal test levels, porn, or cheating, it comes down to PA behavior.
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:03 PM   #64 (permalink)
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That's exactly the path my marriage had headed to. Shame that it took 27 years to finally get it right, but boy what a difference it makes when you do...it's like being newly married again! Our sex life is not where it used to be, but better than where it was...I've learned patience and understanding...something I always though I had, but apparently didn't. He's learned that it's okay to be weak and open up.
Shame that it took 27 years? ....how wonderful that you both learned and have been able to pull through together.

I'm nit-picking words but I wanted to comment on the word "weak" and I know you're not saying this is how YOU view your husband.

I've seen hubs face aspects of himself and his past. I've heard him question if he's "man enough" for me and dealt with understanding that he IS deserving of my love and of me. To experience his growth through all of these different emotions, thoughts and conditioning, I can't even tell you how STRONG I now see him as a result. It's much easier to keep our heads in the sand and continue on as we always have.

I read this last night in a book by Matthieu Ricard: "We are very much like birds that have lived too long in a cage to which we return even when we get the chance to fly away. We have grown so accustomed to our faults that we can barely imagine what life would be like without them. The prospect of change makes us dizzy."

Of course this wasn't all about my husband. I faced things about myself too. The best thing I did for our marriage was to put a halt on the selfish mindset that was creeping in. As soon as my focus was back on "us" and a place of understanding, we had a chance. That was the best thing I could do.
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:21 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Default Re: Too many threads about low sex drive

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Simplistic eh? In your example of the husband not wanting sex because she is overbearing is exactly what PA behavior is about. Instead of telling her what issues he has with her, he withholds.
Barring normal test levels, porn, or cheating, it comes down to PA behavior.
Passive aggressive involves the concept of a guy deliberately holding back. You make it sound like he wants it, but withoulds to punish. Yep, I'd call that simplistic only because it is trying to turn his motivations into something that can be labeled or branded. Please understand that I'm not saying that this is the norm, brighteyes. Some guys are a**holes about it, but there are some guys who are hurting about it too. The ones I've talked to want it badly, but are wrongfully convinced that their wife is just never happy with them. I suspect that many of these guys want a healthy sex life too, though. Again, its just based on information from a clinicician, but it was described as the the sexual connection being so threatening that he began to negatively obsess about being broken, in a sense, and unable to make her happy. If one simple term can describe what men want in a healthy sex life, being 'unthreatening' would hit the mark for a very wide range of men. The source of the threat is within the man, based on a feeling that he can't ever please her, or just that her approval is critical.

I know its like a slap in the face if he avoids the issues, or turns to porn, but am just saying that some guys apparently just feel like they are in over their heads.
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:29 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Default Re: Too many threads about low sex drive

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Passive aggressive involves the concept of a guy deliberately holding back. You make it sound like he wants it, but withoulds to punish. Yep, I'd call that simplistic only because it is trying to turn his motivations into something that can be labeled or branded. Please understand that I'm not saying that this is the norm, brighteyes. Some guys are a**holes about it, but there are some guys who are hurting about it too. The ones I've talked to want it badly, but are wrongfully convinced that their wife is just never happy with them. I suspect that many of these guys want a healthy sex life too, though. Again, its just based on information from a clinicician, but it was described as the the sexual connection being so threatening that he began to negatively obsess about being broken, in a sense, and unable to make her happy. If one simple term can describe what men want in a healthy sex life, being 'unthreatening' would hit the mark for a very wide range of men. The source of the threat is within the man, based on a feeling that he can't ever please her, or just that her approval is critical.

I know its like a slap in the face if he avoids the issues, or turns to porn, but am just saying that some guys apparently just feel like they are in over their heads.
I hear what you are saying. May I ask though how what you just wrote isn't PA behavior though? Sure they may want a healthy sex life but it isn't happening. They DO make a choice to not have sex because they feel that their wives are critical, etc. I see somebody who instead of discussing their hurt/anger, they instead pull back. How is that PA behavior?
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:43 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Default Re: Too many threads about low sex drive

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I didn't say that that low-sex marriages involved men with Low T, or that there is no treatment for low T. I was saying that making the summary that all men who fit into a category of low sex drive having to fit into categories of porn use, low T, PA, or cheating pretty much assures that the theory was postulated by a woman, and not a man who lives and breathes his own interpretation of his behaviors. Isn't is a little odd that a few women on a site can think that they understand something that most psychologists have barely scratched the surface of understanding?
I mentioned low t levels to get that out in the open and put aside as its an issue aside from the emotional ones that many have to deal with.

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Do a quick google of what men really want and need for a healthy, vibrant, intimate relationship, and the answer becomes much more clear. Through no fault of their own, women often assume that men either fit into some stereotypical views, or they make assumptions based on what makes sense to them internally, as women. The google search will usually include the fact that men rather simplistically respond to a person who treats them like she admires him, respects him, and feels that he is the type of man who can fulfill her. Lock a guy into a marriage where these are missing, and a few men will lose their drive for sex with her. Their belief systems may prevent cheating and porn use.
I will agree that this should be added to the list of reasons that some men to not have sex with their wives. It’s the same with women, many women who do not want to have sex with their husbands are responding to being badly treated by their husbands.
But this is hardly the only reason why some men stop having sex with their wives. I have read things that state that the main reason for this is that men use it as an expression of anger. As a way of punishing their wives.
There is no one reason why some men do this.
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My brother, with a tested T range that was off the charts high, contemplated divorce over the issue (they divorced later). We are close, so we talked about the progress with a psychologist who had a phd, specializing in male sexual problems. I read some of the handouts. I know it was just one clinician, but this woman said that relationship where the man felt devalued, with resentment from the wife, was the number one sex life demotivator for men who fit into the general category of professional men. She said that this profile made up most of her practice. His sex life was great for a number of years, but his wife's idea of together time was listing his faults. I would blame him just as much as her, but he admitted that since cheating, porn, etc were pathetic excuses, he realized that he just no longer wanted to have sex anymore. Now that he's divorced, he's perfectly normal in the sex department. I'm high drive, but I think the biggest difference is that my wife has a very positive attitude about sex, 'cus it certainly ain't me.
Yes this was only one clinician. And your brother’s story is only one story. One story does not tell us why all men who chose to not have sex with their wives do so.
There are women who admire their husbands, who respect them and how feel that their husbands fill their needs…. And who are willing to discuss and work on the marriage with their husbands. But for whatever reason he might find, the husband decides to no longer have anything more to do with the wife sexually. There is generally a lot of anger involved on the part of the husband. But if he will not deal with it, include his wife in the solution then she has no responsibility for his angry, selfish choice.

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Originally Posted by Halien View Post
Regardless, as a person trained in software engineering, I recognize that sites like this tend to attract people with very consistent types of interests and tendencies, or at least they fit into a range of people who cross certain internal thresholds of sharing. A general caution is that when we read about how all women apparently cheat, all men apparently like porn and blowjobs galore, we should never let ourself make sterotypical assessments of the general human population based upon such a small sampling size as this site.
I’m a software engineer as well. I do not recall any classes that cover these topics….
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:48 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Default Re: Too many threads about low sex drive

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Simplistic eh? In your example of the husband not wanting sex because she is overbearing is exactly what PA behavior is about. Instead of telling her what issues he has with her, he withholds.
Barring normal test levels, porn, or cheating, it comes down to PA behavior.
You missed the point of the lecture...

It's her fault that he cannot tell her what he needs and what the issues are. It's the woman's fault in every case when a man chooses to end all sex in a marriage. Obviously it's because in every case its the WOMAN who is critical, not respectful and filles her husband cannot meet her needs. It's never because some men are just angry, even for reasons having nothing to do with the marraige, and hence choses to take it out on his wife. It's never becuase some men will not open up to their wives and share with them what they need in the marraige.

Nope, it's always her fault.
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:57 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Default Re: Too many threads about low sex drive

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Passive aggressive involves the concept of a guy deliberately holding back. You make it sound like he wants it, but withoulds to punish. Yep, I'd call that simplistic only because it is trying to turn his motivations into something that can be labeled or branded.
There is a lot of material about this very topic. Yes, some men, just like some women, withhold sex and affection as a passive aggressive way of punishing their spouse.

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Originally Posted by Halien View Post
Please understand that I'm not saying that this is the norm, brighteyes. Some guys are a**holes about it, but there are some guys who are hurting about it too. The ones I've talked to want it badly, but are wrongfully convinced that their wife is just never happy with them. I suspect that many of these guys want a healthy sex life too, though. Again, its just based on information from a clinicician, but it was described as the the sexual connection being so threatening that he began to negatively obsess about being broken, in a sense, and unable to make her happy. If one simple term can describe what men want in a healthy sex life, being 'unthreatening' would hit the mark for a very wide range of men. The source of the threat is within the man, based on a feeling that he can't ever please her, or just that her approval is critical.
Of course this is the case for some men. It’s the case for some women as well. Both sexes can have their sexual desire for their spouse extinguished by things their spouse does that hurts them.

But there are also a fair number of people, male and female who use withholding sex as a way to punish their spouse.
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I know its like a slap in the face if he avoids the issues, or turns to porn, but am just saying that some guys apparently just feel like they are in over their heads.
The operative word there is SOME. It is not the explanation for why all of the men who withhold sex do so.
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:18 PM   #70 (permalink)
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There are women who admire their husbands, who respect them and how feel that their husbands fill their needs…. And who are willing to discuss and work on the marriage with their husbands. But for whatever reason he might find, the husband decides to no longer have anything more to do with the wife sexually. There is generally a lot of anger involved on the part of the husband. But if he will not deal with it, include his wife in the solution then she has no responsibility for his angry, selfish choice.
My husband wanted this connection with me too. For him, it was partly self-destructive and partly self-esteem related (from childhood), as well as partly passive-aggressive, as to why this was happening. Interestingly, our dynamic wasn't always like this. There were certain factors involved.

We both needed to make changes. Thankfully he was able to face aspects about himself for us to move ahead. He owned his part. Thankfully I was able to have patience and understanding for us to move ahead. I also had to change my behavior for us to change patterns together. We still loved each other. We still desired each other.

We all have stuff to learn. We are all flawed. It's only possible to improve relationships if both people are aware of what's happening and willing and able to do the work - although I think with these types of self-discovery moments, it needs to primarily be for ourselves. It's almost too much to go through for someone else. I don't know if this makes sense. I think it needs to be one's own journey to learn. And if the relationship benefits as a result, if we can support each other during these moments, then even better.
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:38 PM   #71 (permalink)
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My husband wanted this connection with me too. For him, it was partly self-destructive and partly self-esteem related (from childhood), as well as partly passive-aggressive, as to why this was happening. Interestingly, our dynamic wasn't always like this. There were certain factors involved.

We both needed to make changes. Thankfully he was able to face aspects about himself for us to move ahead. He owned his part. Thankfully I was able to have patience and understanding for us to move ahead. I also had to change my behavior for us to change patterns together. We still loved each other. We still desired each other.

We all have stuff to learn. We are all flawed. It's only possible to improve relationships if both people are aware of what's happening and willing and able to do the work - although I think with these types of self-discovery moments, it needs to primarily be for ourselves. It's almost too much to go through for someone else. I don't know if this makes sense. I think it needs to be one's own journey to learn. And if the relationship benefits as a result, if we can support each other during these moments, then even better.
You and your husband are lucky to have each other and to have worked through this.

In my previous marriage things did not end up so well. He just go angrier over the years, a lot of it was directed at his parents. He took it out on me. There was nothing I could do right. Nothing I cooked was good enough. He’d throw the dish of food at me across the dinner table. I could not clean the house right. If I cleaned bedroom first, he’d yell that I should have done the dishes first. I worked full time as did he. We made the same money as we were both engineers at that time. Then he went to medical school and supported him and our new son. And it got worse. In the 7th year he cut off all sex and affection. That lasted for another 7 years. I tried to get him to work on the marriage, his anger, etc. I know I am not perfect. I am willing to change. As time went on it was clear that we has having affair after affair.

I was able to get him to go to counseling for a while. His participation ended with a huge blowout in which he screamed at me and the counselor. He told us under no uncertain terms that he wanted nothing to do with me sexually. Of course he had no problem having me support him through his medical school.

As the counselor said, he was angry at things that had nothing to do with me. He transferred the anger to me and took it out on me. If he chose not to address the issues in the marriage and give me a chance to meet his needs then he holds 100% responsibility for his actions.
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:47 PM   #72 (permalink)
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I’m a software engineer as well. I do not recall any classes that cover these topics….
Interesting! So, you didn't study how a subject-based information environment tends to attract people who are looking for that type of environment, and not the more general human population?

You are accusing me in your threads of trying to lay the fault of an issue at the feet of women, which I find to be counter-productive to a thread that happened to be posted in the Men's Clubhouse. Instead, since it was in the Men's Clubhouse, the reply was intended to offer that lumping something very complex into a full exposition of male low sex drive will likely short circuit many attempts to resolve the problem. No, I am no an expert in psychology, and don't understand why you seem to keep turning this into a personal attack, but I am a man and a certified 6 Sigma Black Belt. So, my job is to take a look at simplistic assumptions and turn them into a discrete statistical analysis of tendencies based on human preferences. A basic rule is that if you think you can lump human motivation into a few stereotypical associations, then the only thing you can be assured of is that the assumption is wrong.

The operative tem you missed from my post was 'some men', which, if you look at the context of how you say that all low sex drive men fit into four categories, my reply was only trying to suggest that there may be more than four, and that the 5th one can be pretty significant, unless you make the assumption that all women in these situation approach the subject in a productive manner. As I said, it was one clinician, BUT I also said that this one clinician cited that her experience, practice, and studies taught her that this is a pretty significant issue, not related necessarily to PA type behaviors. I do not want to offend guys who are like this, just as I was trying not to offend women in this situation, so I left it at saying that it was through no fault of the woman, in my opinion. I suspect, based on discussions with other men, that some (Please note this time that I said some) men in this situation just feel a similar level of humiliation at their failures, so both partners fear to approach the topic in a healthy way. I think it is sad. Knowing my wife like I do, it would probably hurt her more than anything, and no woman deserves that. But I think that a solution can't be found by just objectifying the men as bad men with porn addictions, a few affair partners on the side, and sadistic PA tendencies. Some might just be scared guys.

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Old 12-16-2011, 10:51 PM   #73 (permalink)
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As the counselor said, he was angry at things that had nothing to do with me. He transferred the anger to me and took it out on me. If he chose not to address the issues in the marriage and give me a chance to meet his needs then he holds 100% responsibility for his actions.
Agreed.

Despite this disconnect, hubs has always treated me with respect and consideration. What we had was worth fighting for. But we both needed to face up to what was happening. His strength in this whole process left me flawed.

I could not have endured what you did, especially for that length of time. It sounds like you know that you did all you could and recognize it wasn't on you. This no doubt means (hopefully) you moved on with peace of mind for yourself.
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:54 PM   #74 (permalink)
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You missed the point of the lecture...

It's her fault that he cannot tell her what he needs and what the issues are. It's the woman's fault in every case when a man chooses to end all sex in a marriage. Obviously it's because in every case its the WOMAN who is critical, not respectful and filles her husband cannot meet her needs. It's never because some men are just angry, even for reasons having nothing to do with the marraige, and hence choses to take it out on his wife. It's never becuase some men will not open up to their wives and share with them what they need in the marraige.

Nope, it's always her fault.
Lecture? Halien doesn't lecture, he speaks his mind and I don't think he was blaming women, I think he was saying that there are reasons why some don't want sex. I think he did a poor job of explaining it....a rare occurrence for him.
Halien, I gotta say that your reasoning did strike me as being odd. While I understand some of what you are saying, it didn't gel with me in that I still go back to PA behavior. Perhaps I missed something but it smacked of "she's being controlling.....I withhold" regardless of intent.
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Old 12-16-2011, 11:24 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Lecture? Halien doesn't lecture, he speaks his mind and I don't think he was blaming women, I think he was saying that there are reasons why some don't want sex. I think he did a poor job of explaining it....a rare occurrence for him.
Halien, I gotta say that your reasoning did strike me as being odd. While I understand some of what you are saying, it didn't gel with me in that I still go back to PA behavior. Perhaps I missed something but it smacked of "she's being controlling.....I withhold" regardless of intent.
Thank you, brighteyes. Its hard to describe because I've only dealt with it through my brother and friends. But for the sake of argument, say that a guy feels like his wife is healthy, vivacious, but he seems to be sensitive to the fact that she knows his faults all too well. He's not sure why, but as the years pass, he can't get this out of his head when they are together, so he begins to avoid sex. Why doesn't he just speak up? Well, my friend once said that it was like approaching a woman that you have made yourself afraid of, and telling her "I am not a real man. I'm afraid." I think that once that wall goes up in a guys mind, it takes serious work to get it down, and by the time he's ready to work on it, I'm pretty sure the wife is breathing smoke, more or less.

Because I tend to be the alpha type, I'll admit that I also used to really study the weaknesses of other men. Its like you pick apart the other people who may on your team, learn thier weaknesses, so you can best leverage what you have to build a high caliber team. Its something I'm known for, because I used to get the guys with a 4A score (out the door), and have to turn them around into a productive professional. I'll offend people, I'm sure, but a significant percentage of men are avoiders. Bad thing is, you'd have to break their arm to get them to admit it, too. Sorry for sounding harsh. I wouldn't call it PA because I think think its more accurately some sort of "desperate avoider" complex, or the "I'll be more aggressive tomorrow" complex. I've had more than one wife at company parties asking if I could get her husband as motivated about her as they are on the team.

Last edited by Halien; 12-16-2011 at 11:29 PM.
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