Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce? - Page 7 - Talk About Marriage
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post #91 of 171 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 10:38 AM
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Re: Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?

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Originally Posted by FeministInPink View Post
The problem I see with this article is the whole correlation vs causation thing.

Yes, there appears to be a correlation between men doing more housework and divorce, but correlation does not imply or guarantee causation. Within this study, how many of the men doing more housework were "Nice Guys" and were damaging their marriage in other ways that were unreported? And the women that were doing more housework and had correlative happy marriages--there's no clear argument that their marriages are happier because the woman does more housework. Maybe the woman is inclined to do more housework as a result of being happy in her marriage, and vice versa? (I know, in my personal experience, that if I am happier in my relationship, then I am more likely to take care of these little things and pay attention to the housework BECAUSE I want to gift that to my partner; if he's making me miserable and I'm unhappy in my relationship, I'm going to tell him to **** off an make his own damn dinner.)

And, as another TAMer commented, they don't provide info on whether both partners are working, or if there's one breadwinner, etc.

There are way too many variables to establish causation. Correlation, perhaps. Causation, no.
Too many non-controlled variables. The data can be read to mean virtually anything.

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post #92 of 171 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 08:46 PM
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Re: Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?

If you had talked to me a few years ago after my divorce with my XWW I would have soundly agreed with the premise that men doing more chores increases divorce. Not so much anymore. There's a lot more nuance to life.

Me doing more chores may have been a contributing factor (among many) in my XWW losing respect for me because I didn't have any expectations of her to chip in. I was a doormat and allowed her to set the rules. So it really wasn't the "chores", per se; it was my driving motive for taking more of them on in the first place. She knew she wasn't contributing around the house, and she knew she totally controlled our sex life. All she had to do was dangle the carrot of sex in front of me, and I was more than happy to do all the cooking, dishes, picking up, etc. We did laundry together, and we did grocery shopping together. But I had quite a few daily chores that were "mine", whereas she had none. Because I was hoping to get laid. "If I do this, will you have sex with me?"

Kinda hard to respect someone who allows that dynamic to exist. And it was a valuable learning opportunity, in that it's okay for me to have expectations that my partner be a contributing element to the relationship. I've dumped women post-divorce who were lacking in that area, and it was a smart move.

I've found that a relationship where both parties expect the other to contribute in various ways creates a far healthier dynamic. Accountability is a good thing.
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post #93 of 171 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 02:48 PM
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Re: Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?

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In the few instances I actually have felt the need for validation from my wife, I have only found myself in a world of hurt.

...as for when I do a small chore around the house and I feel like a super hero, well that is just because I'm easily astounded and cheerful of my abilities to accomplish even the smallest tasks! My wife accuses me of taking her for granted when this happens... from now on I'll tell her if she wants to feel like a super hero for rinsing the dishes that she needs to start rinsing them like me (a super hero that is!)!

Cheers,
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That's the funny thing about validation. When it is freely given it is called showing appreciation.

With things that are objective, such as cooking, cleaning, working, where there are real, measurable, observable, tangible results, I have never needed anyone else validation. Things that are subjective and dependent on someone else point of view on the other hand, that is where it can get tricky, and ultimately the only way to reliably have the desired outcome is to ensure that one doesn't care about the outcome at all...

It took me a while to get to the point of not caring about, and not needing any validation from my wife regarding my attractiveness to her. Indifference is certainly a better state for me...no so sure how great it is for the marriage though.

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post #94 of 171 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 10:34 PM
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Re: Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?

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My own experiences make me suspicious of the underlying assumption that people are telling the truth about division of labor.

I do the cooking, all of the dishes, trash, yard work, and vacuuming. I also pick the kids up from school every day and help them with their homework. My wife does laundry and occasionally cleans a bathroom. Yet if you were to ask her, she does the lions share of the housework. She's not intentionally lying either--she really believes it.
Is it possible we live in a parallel universe where my wife is also married to you?
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post #95 of 171 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 02:24 AM
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Re: Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?

One of the reasons I completely adore MrH is because he does so much around the house and garden. He just does it, no need to have any discussion about it, we work well together to run a very large and busy household. We tend to do a fair bit together including cooking and gardening. Even after a long day at work he comes home and just gets stuff done, washing, cleaning or whatever. He will often ask me if there are any jobs that I want him to do and we have no problem asking each other for help doing chores.

I could never respect a lazy man or man child, he had an ex that did very little around the house and did not work outside the house (severe MH issues) so he often tells me with words and actions how much he appreciates the way we work together as a team.

Him doing a lot around the house (as well as working full time plus) is not ever likely to lead to divorce.
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post #96 of 171 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 04:11 AM
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Re: Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?

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One of the reasons I completely adore MrH is because he does so much around the house and garden. He just does it, no need to have any discussion about it, we work well together to run a very large and busy household. We tend to do a fair bit together including cooking and gardening. Even after a long day at work he comes home and just gets stuff done, washing, cleaning or whatever. He will often ask me if there are any jobs that I want him to do and we have no problem asking each other for help doing chores.

I could never respect a lazy man or man child, he had an ex that did very little around the house and did not work outside the house (severe MH issues) so he often tells me with words and actions how much he appreciates the way we work together as a team.

Him doing a lot around the house (as well as working full time plus) is not ever likely to lead to divorce.
That is wonderful to hear. What is unusual in that is that you are aware and non-judgemental about it. I think hat is rarer than you imagine. I suspect his ex-wife might well have reported that she did everything (clearly, I do not know that).

Clearly, a man should pull his weight. He should not do it for validation or appreciation from his wife (wimpy), nor expect her to realize it (it is great if she can, without thinking it makes her a bad person).
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post #97 of 171 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 07:29 AM
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Re: Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?

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Clearly, a man should pull his weight. He should not do it for validation or appreciation from his wife (wimpy), nor expect her to realize it (it is great if she can, without thinking it makes her a bad person).
I think part of what happens, you have those who believe in the whole "Happy Wife Happy Life" nonsense. So for a guy who follows, he is led to believe that every action he does to make his W happy should be met with validation/appreciation.sex, etc... The W who believes this as well takes the approach that she takes priority in the relationship, and her Hs needs/happiness is nothing more then a byproduct.

I am sure there are couples who follow along with HWHL and are happy with. In general, IMO, it is a horrible concept for anyone to follow, especially since it prioritizes the happiness of one person in the relationship over the other.
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post #98 of 171 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 09:32 AM
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Re: Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?

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Him doing a lot around the house (as well as working full time plus) is not ever likely to lead to divorce.
If that's the case I should have me a harem...

I can do DIY esp landscaping, light construction, trim carpentry, painting, and low voltage stuff better than many professional crews, esp painting.

I do all laundry, some cooking, and heavy duty house cleaning like carpet washing.

It's all about perception, not results, with some people.
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post #99 of 171 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 12:12 PM
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Re: Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?

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I think part of what happens, you have those who believe in the whole "Happy Wife Happy Life" nonsense. So for a guy who follows, he is led to believe that every action he does to make his W happy should be met with validation/appreciation.sex, etc... The W who believes this as well takes the approach that she takes priority in the relationship, and her Hs needs/happiness is nothing more then a byproduct.

I am sure there are couples who follow along with HWHL and are happy with. In general, IMO, it is a horrible concept for anyone to follow, especially since it prioritizes the happiness of one person in the relationship over the other.
I think the whole "Happy Wife, Happy Life" is misunderstood by a great number of men, and is therefore executed poorly. If understood and applied correctly, then I think it's a good adage to apply in a relationship.

Happy Wife doesn't mean giving into her every whim and coddling her and doing all the housework like a houseboy. I think a Happy Wife will come from the things we talk about here frequently--making sure that her needs are being met (and let's be honest, a lot of women are not good about communicating those, so this can be a challenge), but also by the husband taking a lead in the relationship (a la MMSL Primer and NMMNG) and establishing boundaries for a healthy relationship. If a wife is happy in these ways, then it comes back to the husband in turn.

That's what I think it means, anyway.

~Happily un-married since December 9, 2013~
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post #100 of 171 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 12:48 PM
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Re: Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?

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I think the whole "Happy Wife, Happy Life" is misunderstood by a great number of men, and is therefore executed poorly. If understood and applied correctly, then I think it's a good adage to apply in a relationship.

Happy Wife doesn't mean giving into her every whim and coddling her and doing all the housework like a houseboy. I think a Happy Wife will come from the things we talk about here frequently--making sure that her needs are being met (and let's be honest, a lot of women are not good about communicating those, so this can be a challenge), but also by the husband taking a lead in the relationship (a la MMSL Primer and NMMNG) and establishing boundaries for a healthy relationship. If a wife is happy in these ways, then it comes back to the husband in turn.

That's what I think it means, anyway.
I do agree with your take on what it should mean. It is called "Happy Wife Happy Life". There is no equivalent "Happy Husband Happy Life". The problem, at face value, you can see how this elicits a certain response. The flipside of HWHL is Unhappy Wife, Prepare for War It implies (once again, at face value) that the Wife's happiness is priority. It promotes (at face value) an unbalanced relationship where her needs (whatever they may be) must be met first before she is hopefully willing to reciprocate. Anyone who follows this literally is in for a world of hurt lol.

Honestly, the actual HWHL phrase should just die b/c people (both men and women) will take this saying very literally, creating an unbalanced dynamic in their relationship that will probably lead to frustration/resentment.

Bonus points for the bolded FIP, this was along the lines of a thread I had started a week ago about this very topic
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post #101 of 171 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 02:15 PM
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Re: Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?

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I do agree with your take on what it should mean. It is called "Happy Wife Happy Life". There is no equivalent "Happy Husband Happy Life". The problem, at face value, you can see how this elicits a certain response. The flipside of HWHL is Unhappy Wife, Prepare for War It implies (once again, at face value) that the Wife's happiness is priority. It promotes (at face value) an unbalanced relationship where her needs (whatever they may be) must be met first before she is hopefully willing to reciprocate. Anyone who follows this literally is in for a world of hurt lol.

Honestly, the actual HWHL phrase should just die b/c people (both men and women) will take this saying very literally, creating an unbalanced dynamic in their relationship that will probably lead to frustration/resentment.

Bonus points for the bolded FIP, this was along the lines of a thread I had started a week ago about this very topic
Thanks!

I agree with you, it absolutely should be reciprocal that both partners' needs be a priority. And in a healthy relationship--with a woman who has a high, healthy EQ--she WILL reciprocate. I don't think there's any need to hope that she will, because she just will. So adherence to HWHL would be successful, by that logic. There are just too many people who are screwed up for it to work consistently

~Happily un-married since December 9, 2013~
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post #102 of 171 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 02:23 PM
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Re: Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?

I think that statement was more true in prior generations within a more patriarchal society. Within that system, I can see how being a "benevolent dictator" would get a guy more appreciation from his wife than being a selfish tyrant. These days, when women quite properly expect to be treated as equals, I don't see why catering to her needs should take any priority. Both spouse's should be working to satisfy both of their respective needs.

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post #103 of 171 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 03:08 PM
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Re: Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?

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I think that statement was more true in prior generations within a more patriarchal society. Within that system, I can see how being a "benevolent dictator" would get a guy more appreciation from his wife than being a selfish tyrant. These days, when women quite properly expect to be treated as equals, I don't see why catering to her needs should take any priority. Both spouse's should be working to satisfy both of their respective needs.
I think the bold does fit in well with part of this topic where the discussion was around defined roles. With more women being part of the workforce full time, the more "traditional" role of the husband/wife has definitely shifted. There is a thread going on here somewhere about HNHNs. I was just reading a brief summary on and came across this, which in many respects you can see goes against what you could consider the current roles (just highlighting a few):

The Irresistible Man

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He meets her need for financial support by firmly shouldering the responsibility to house, feed and clothe his family. If his income is insufficient to support his wife adequately (certain callings as ministry, or social service), he does not feel sorry for himself; instead, he looks for concrete ways to increase his earnings by upgrading his skills or he sits down with his wife to determine how to make better use of what income they have, how to lower their standard of living if necessary in order to raise their marriage to a safer and more fulfilling level.

He meets her need for family commitment by putting his family first. He commits his time and energy to the moral and intellectual development of the children. For example, he reads to them, he engages in sports with them and takes them camping or on other outings. He does not play the fool's game of working long hours, trying to get ahead, while his children and spouse languish in neglect; and he seeks to help with the home
The Irresistible Woman

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She meets his need for her attractiveness. She keeps herself physically attractive and she wears her hair, makeup and clothes in a way that her husband finds attractive and tasteful. Her husband is pleased and proud of her in public and in private.

She meets his need for domestic support by creating a home that offers him an atmosphere of peace and quiet. She manages the home and care of the children. This gives him the opportunity to spend evenings and weekends with her and their children in educational and recreational activity
So what happens when what you consider an "irresistible" woman/male (possibly based on the items above) does not actually match with what your current role is (as the items listed above are more based on the dynamic of breadwinner H and SAHMish)? How easily can people adjust their thinking (for example, if you find an irresistible man to be one who provides financial support, but in your marriage you are an equal or even the breadwinner, etc...)
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post #104 of 171 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 03:20 PM
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Re: Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?

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If that's the case I should have me a harem...

I can do DIY esp landscaping, light construction, trim carpentry, painting, and low voltage stuff better than many professional crews, esp painting.

I do all laundry, some cooking, and heavy duty house cleaning like carpet washing.

It's all about perception, not results, with some people.
Like all relationships it is about two people and how they fit together. MrH's 1st wife has it tough in many regards such as health so I have a degree of acceptance/understanding for her. But yeah she made his life hard, he HAD to do a lot of chores as she didn't do them. He had a lot of resentment for her in this regard, a lot of self deprivation also bc he put up with it.

Our life is quite the opposite, we enjoy working together and doing things for each other and our family.
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post #105 of 171 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 06:38 PM
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Re: Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?

The dynamic below is exactly what drives the related divorce statistics.


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If you had talked to me a few years ago after my divorce with my XWW I would have soundly agreed with the premise that men doing more chores increases divorce. Not so much anymore. There's a lot more nuance to life.

Me doing more chores may have been a contributing factor (among many) in my XWW losing respect for me because I didn't have any expectations of her to chip in. I was a doormat and allowed her to set the rules. So it really wasn't the "chores", per se; it was my driving motive for taking more of them on in the first place. She knew she wasn't contributing around the house, and she knew she totally controlled our sex life. All she had to do was dangle the carrot of sex in front of me, and I was more than happy to do all the cooking, dishes, picking up, etc. We did laundry together, and we did grocery shopping together. But I had quite a few daily chores that were "mine", whereas she had none. Because I was hoping to get laid. "If I do this, will you have sex with me?"

Kinda hard to respect someone who allows that dynamic to exist. And it was a valuable learning opportunity, in that it's okay for me to have expectations that my partner be a contributing element to the relationship. I've dumped women post-divorce who were lacking in that area, and it was a smart move.

I've found that a relationship where both parties expect the other to contribute in various ways creates a far healthier dynamic. Accountability is a good thing.
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