Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness. - Page 2 - Talk About Marriage
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post #16 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:24 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

My filter: 30 year old female. Christian. Married to my high school sweet heart for 6 years. No kids. Grew up with strong females, passive men. I know I am biased to women.

I go back and forth. I for sure feel like men haven't evolved much compared to women, I don't think men in general have stepped up to the plate in many areas. I have a picture in my head with men in the 1940s-50s and the men today and how different they have became in a negative way.

I do disagree in that... men and women are different. And they are better in some areas than others. Especially emotional intelligence. That doesn't mean to say... men should be given a free pass to ignorance.

It's funny how all our outlooks on men vs women are. My in laws are very patriarchal. They think men can't do wrong, and they have little expectations for them.

As for Heath Cliff... I thought he was a great dad and husband. I grew up wanting to have their life and their marriage. Strong female educated wife. Strong but funny educated husband that respects his wife. I love that he just can't wait to get the kids out of the house so he can be with his wife. I love that he treated her like she was the most beautiful women in the world, he still dated her. He was moral and did the right thing.
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post #17 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:25 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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The thing with child support is that as you're paying it you have no idea that is goes toward actually helping the kids. All too often it ends up being spending money for the ex wife. That's one of the reasons I haven't divorced. The thing I actually like about paying college tuition is that I actually know that money is going to help the kids, not her.


Wow. THIS is the reason why you haven't divorced? That's really sad. I think you have a very negative weird outlook and fear that your wife is going to use your money to buy things for herself. Who cares what she does. This is a control issue.
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post #18 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:32 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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Wow. THIS is the reason why you haven't divorced? That's really sad. I think you have a very negative weird outlook and fear that your wife is going to use your money to buy things for herself. Who cares what she does. This is a control issue.
Nope it's a trust issue

"I've paid double for every transgression I've ever made and that motel and that boat are little to ask for"
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post #19 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:34 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

so whose fault is it? Is it parents fault for not teaching their boys better. Is it men's fault for not knowing. Or is it women's fault for lowering expectations and continuing the "boys will be boys", not holding them responsible.

The problem is... it's like supple and demand. You can hold a man accountable, he may get sick and tired of your unhappiness and "nagging" and go be with another women who expects much less from him and be happy while no one will ever met our expectations and we will forever be unhappy.

I have the viewpoint right now of... married. It is what it is. I gotta except things the way they are not the way I want them to be. I will never find peace if I don't. However, when I have kids... I will teach them to be better.
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post #20 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:35 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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Nope it's a trust issue


How? What is your fear? You think your wife will buy a Prada bag while your kids are going hungry? You must not think much of her, well at least her abilities as a parent.
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post #21 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:38 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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I've always found characters like Peter Griffin and Homer Simpson to be annoying idiots that are frankly insulting to real men.



Fat, stupid idiots with wives that are supposedly way hotter and are somehow attracted to their fat, pathetic (but funny) ineptness. So not how things actually work.



I feel insulted on behalf of men when I see a commercial showing dad as a bumbling idiot who needs a little kid to show him how it is. I suppose they're somehow geared toward women, but my experience with actual men has been nothing like that.....even my ex who was king ass wasn't a bumbling idiot.



And my father, may he rest in piece, was a real man who handled business.



As is my husband.



Those cartoon characters have nothing to do with maleness and everything to do with idiocy. One has nothing to do with the other.


But look around. I think those cartoons are obviously exaggerated but there is some truth to them. It seems like at least when I look around with my biased POV that when women get married, they inherit another child. The thought of a man playing video games blows my mind and drives me crazy.
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post #22 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:42 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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I got a lot of stick for posting this on a thread months ago but I will say it again.
Men need to act like men,They are supposed to be the strong partner in a relationship but a lot of them don't act like it.Chuck71 had it right when he said this is not a dress rehearsal it's the real thing.The most sickening thing that I read about on tam is men who have children and for one reason or another feel they shouldn't have to support them,it's like "I screwed up this time but I promise to do better next time,you don't really expect me to pay for my mistakes do you".Then you have the permanent student,will do anything other than get a full time job and work to take care of his family.Then you get the ******* who has kids with two or more woman but can't support any of them.But my ****ing favourite is the guy who wants to "find himself",so he takes off and leaves his partner and kids to struggle on.You have men whose partner cheated so they leave and refuse to pay child support and "experts" on tam will give them legal advice on how not to support their own kids.
It makes me sick.
I will never forget my pop telling me -if you think you're old enough to have sex with your

g/f, then by schit you're old enough to raise a kid when you get her pregnant.- Sure put a damper

on our next few dates. -Don't expect to stay at home, move her in. I ain't running no GD hotel.

By the way.... you best enjoy all the sex you can now if you get her pregnant. After a kid or two, your

days of endless sex will be over.- VERY eye opening....

I have always been a huge fan of the 1950s-70s sitcoms. Many great father figures to look up to.

I don't watch much current shows.... I remember trying King of Queens... Doug Heffernan (sp)

He acted scared of his W, like a buffoon, inept, dim-witted. Same went for Mike n Molly....

it wasn't that bad until about the third season. Same thing as with Dougie. To me.... the guys had

two emotional needs -me is hungry- -me is horny- Seriously LOL! Course I'm sure "some" guys

only care for those two needs. I recall being told some 20+ years ago, "Women think they can

read a guy's mind and they expect the guy's to be able to read theirs." BTW... a female told me that.

I know lazy guys and hard working guys. I know lazy females and hard working females.

To lump every one into a main group of.... 100 million people, beyond lunacy. You get out, what you put in....

goes for just about everything in life.

A-Every single thing that has ever happened in your life is preparing you for a moment that is yet to come.
B-We know what we are, but know not what we may be
C-Never make the person in your present pay for the sins committed by people from your past
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post #23 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:45 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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Originally Posted by sokillme View Post
Thoughts on Howard Cuttingham? I wonder what Gary Marshall (writer producer of Happy Days) early life and marriage was as compared to Bill Cosby. We all know who he turned out to be. Someone pointed this out and it's interesting that Cliff was a gynecologist who had is exam room in the basement of his house. Think about that for a moment in the context of what we know now. So creepy.
I've actually never watched the Happy Days show so I'm not familiar with the character, Howard.

You know, I never made the connection with the gyno vibe and what we know now about Bill Cosby. I almost wish you hadn't noted it lol ughhhh
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post #24 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:47 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
But look around. I think those cartoons are obviously exaggerated but there is some truth to them. It seems like at least when I look around with my biased POV that when women get married, they inherit another child. The thought of a man playing video games blows my mind and drives me crazy.
I know more good men than bad ones by a large margin.

One has to be very cautious of confirmation bias. When we expect to find certain things, our mind fulfills those expectations even if they are actually not. Also, our minds can see said expectations at the exclusion of many other things that would paint a more balanced picture.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #25 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:53 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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I know more good men than bad ones by a large margin.

One has to be very cautious of confirmation bias. When we expect to find certain things, our mind fulfills those expectations even if they are actually not. Also, our minds can see said expectations at the exclusion of many other things that would paint a more balanced picture.
Agree. Confirmation bias is so easy in this case, since no man is completely good or bad. You can always find what you're looking for.

Darling it's better down where it's wetter, take it from me! --- Sebastian
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post #26 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:59 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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I know more good men than bad ones by a large margin.

One has to be very cautious of confirmation bias. When we expect to find certain things, our mind fulfills those expectations even if they are actually not. Also, our minds can see said expectations at the exclusion of many other things that would paint a more balanced picture.


I'm aware. We all have biases and I'm aware of mine. My opinions, like everyone's have been developed through general observations.

What is a good man vs bad man. I'm sure my trigger to call a man good is way different than yours. Also what we view as gender "expectations" determines whether we think a man or women is good.

I ask my husband if his dad was a good dad and why (I think he was terrible, but did the best he could). He response, he was a great dad because he provided for us.

My mom is old fashion and thinks a good wife is one that cooks and takes care of her husband and kids needs and keeps a clean house. A man is good if he provides for his family.

I for some reason always had a higher expectation for men, and therefore find fewer to be "good".
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post #27 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 04:05 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
My filter: 30 year old female. Christian. Married to my high school sweet heart for 6 years. No kids. Grew up with strong females, passive men. I know I am biased to women.

I go back and forth. I for sure feel like men haven't evolved much compared to women, I don't think men in general have stepped up to the plate in many areas. I have a picture in my head with men in the 1940s-50s and the men today and how different they have became in a negative way.

I do disagree in that... men and women are different. And they are better in some areas than others. Especially emotional intelligence. That doesn't mean to say... men should be given a free pass to ignorance.

It's funny how all our outlooks on men vs women are. My in laws are very patriarchal. They think men can't do wrong, and they have little expectations for them.

As for Heath Cliff... I thought he was a great dad and husband. I grew up wanting to have their life and their marriage. Strong female educated wife. Strong but funny educated husband that respects his wife. I love that he just can't wait to get the kids out of the house so he can be with his wife. I love that he treated her like she was the most beautiful women in the world, he still dated her. He was moral and did the right thing.
There is a type of benevolent sexism that I think is not actually unhealthy. We can accept our partner as they, but sometimes this is just not possible, so we have to excuse them. An easy way of doing this is to say, "Men are rubbish like this...." or "Women are impossible like that....", it means we can use their sex to excuse our partner. I approve. Really.

"My in laws are very patriarchal. They think men can't do wrong, and they have little expectations for them." In the UK, the expectations for men are typically higher, which some men say is feminism gone to far, but I think it is a case of feminism leaving the job half done.

The main difference in men and women is physical. The rest is largely cultural (which does not make it trivial). I would not generally expect a woman to empathize with me in the way that I can typically empathize with her, I am a man and a man's man at that. When I have hard times, it is men who help me and understand. That does give me a different perspective to the archetypal "nice guy" who will get that support from women.
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post #28 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 04:17 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
I'm aware. We all have biases and I'm aware of mine. My opinions, like everyone's have been developed through general observations.

What is a good man vs bad man. I'm sure my trigger to call a man good is way different than yours. Also what we view as gender "expectations" determines whether we think a man or women is good.

I ask my husband if his dad was a good dad and why (I think he was terrible, but did the best he could). He response, he was a great dad because he provided for us.

My mom is old fashion and thinks a good wife is one that cooks and takes care of her husband and kids needs and keeps a clean house. A man is good if he provides for his family.

I for some reason always had a higher expectation for men,
and therefore find fewer to be "good".
I agree..... what higher expectations do you have?

A-Every single thing that has ever happened in your life is preparing you for a moment that is yet to come.
B-We know what we are, but know not what we may be
C-Never make the person in your present pay for the sins committed by people from your past
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post #29 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 05:05 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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Not control, I just don't want her to be able to blow all the money that's supposed to go toward support of the kids and come back to me and ask for more because they don't have money for essentials. I know that's what she would do.
How is that different? You want control of how the money you give her is spent.
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post #30 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 05:06 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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There is a type of benevolent sexism that I think is not actually unhealthy. We can accept our partner as they, but sometimes this is just not possible, so we have to excuse them. An easy way of doing this is to say, "Men are rubbish like this...." or "Women are impossible like that....", it means we can use their sex to excuse our partner. I approve. Really.

"My in laws are very patriarchal. They think men can't do wrong, and they have little expectations for them." In the UK, the expectations for men are typically higher, which some men say is feminism gone to far, but I think it is a case of feminism leaving the job half done.

The main difference in men and women is physical. The rest is largely cultural (which does not make it trivial). I would not generally expect a woman to empathize with me in the way that I can typically empathize with her, I am a man and a man's man at that. When I have hard times, it is men who help me and understand. That does give me a different perspective to the archetypal "nice guy" who will get that support from women.

One thing that I've noticed is that in places where women have the least power there are also the lowest standards of behavior for men. In some of these very patriarchal Muslim or African countries men can't be expected to control themselves around 8 years old girls, and don't really have to do much at all besides take.

Where women have power standards of behavior for men are higher, and once those standards are culturally accepted men will tend to hold other men accountable.

But there are men who resent these higher standards and blame feminism. I can't help but ask why? How is it unfair to ask more than the bare minimum of providing? Particularly when a lot of women are providing as well? If the answer isn't laziness or selfishness then what is it?

The fact is that expectations have changed on both ends. The same men who will complain about feminism and look for the good old days conveniently forget that the porn sex they often want didn't exist in the good old days. It was pretty unthinkable to ask your wife for oral or anal.

And you sure as **** didn't divorce your wife over a lack of a satisfying sex life, as guys on TAM are advised to do all the time.

There are many examples.....it's just important for men and women to keep in mind all the things they'd actually be giving up if the could go back to the good old days. I think many men imagine it would be the same as it is now except they'd control everything and their wife would do as she's told.

Not the case.....many things would be different.
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