Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness. - Page 5 - Talk About Marriage
The Men's Clubhouse Talk about life's dilemmas.

User Tag List

 60Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
post #61 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 10:33 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,606
Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeistooshort View Post
One thing that I've noticed is that in places where women have the least power there are also the lowest standards of behavior for men. In some of these very patriarchal Muslim or African countries men can't be expected to control themselves around 8 years old girls, and don't really have to do much at all besides take.

Where women have power standards of behavior for men are higher, and once those standards are culturally accepted men will tend to hold other men accountable.

But there are men who resent these higher standards and blame feminism. I can't help but ask why? How is it unfair to ask more than the bare minimum of providing? Particularly when a lot of women are providing as well? If the answer isn't laziness or selfishness then what is it?

The fact is that expectations have changed on both ends. The same men who will complain about feminism and look for the good old days conveniently forget that the porn sex they often want didn't exist in the good old days. It was pretty unthinkable to ask your wife for oral or anal.

And you sure as **** didn't divorce your wife over a lack of a satisfying sex life, as guys on TAM are advised to do all the time.

There are many examples.....it's just important for men and women to keep in mind all the things they'd actually be giving up if the could go back to the good old days. I think many men imagine it would be the same as it is now except they'd control everything and their wife would do as she's told.

Not the case.....many things would be different.

Depends on what you call feminism. If you think of it as egalitarianism then I am a feminist. If you are the type of feminist to tells me my masculine nature is toxic and then proceeds to pick bad things and associate them with my masculinity then you I will fight against your dogma. It used to be people who thought that way were called bigots, now they are called third wave. The problem is the hateful ones have hijacked the egalitarian ones.

Last edited by sokillme; 03-23-2017 at 10:44 PM.
sokillme is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 10:38 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,606
Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

The point of this thread was not about anything we are talking about here. It was about negative stereotypes and how they are associated with maleness. And how some men propagate them and in effect hurt each other because of it. It was not for posters to come on here and tell us how men suck and the stereotypes are true.
sokillme is online now  
post #63 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 10:46 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,606
Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
Let me preface this... this is my believe for what I think works for me and the type of marriage I want. I don't apply this To all men and women!

I expect men to be the head of the house. I expect him to work hard and put the family first. I expect him to be the moral hierarchy. The person to go to for the best advice, the most moral advice. I expect him to live a moral ethical life in the way he speaks, and in his actions. He should respect his wife. He should see things in terms of us and we. He should see the house as our house, and if he sees something needs to be done... I.e. The laundry, he does it because he sees these things as items that need to get done, and nothing else. He is aware that he is a man, bigger and stronger than his wife, therefore he should treat her so, like carry heavy items, be protective of her. And he does all these things because it's who he is, not because his wife is good to him.

I am huge about people doing what they should do because it's the right thing to do. Not because their spouse is good to them but because of who they are. Because they are a good person with good character. If that makes sense.

To me... there is nothing better than a respectable man. I am all about character.
I think most men at least the ones I am close to would agree with this, the doing laundry one might give you some push back. I feel bad for you if you haven't had many examples of that.
sokillme is online now  
post #64 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 10:48 PM
Member
 
katiecrna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,467
Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sokillme View Post
I think most men at least the ones I am close to would agree with this, the doing laundry one might give you some push back. I feel bad for you if you haven't had many examples of that.


What happened to staying on topic and discussing the negative stereotypes of men?
katiecrna is offline  
post #65 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,606
Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
Yea the stereotype that men aren't or are a certain way because they are of male gender. Thanks I got it.

However stereotypes exist for a reason. I do not think men and women are equal with the exception of their physical strength.
I don't think you do get my point. I used the Kardashians for a reason. I could point to any number of Instagram account and associate that with today's women and say, women today are really failing terribly. The difference is this type of women is rarely seen except on reality TV. (In the same way that one of the posters said she was embarrassed for men with these cartoon dads, so am I embarrassed for women with these "real wives" for instance. And it's the women who watch those shows!) The difference is we don't see scripted shows written with many women like this. Not in the position of Mom anyway. Maybe we will eventually.

Are the stereotypes true, of course there are. In the same way this kind of vapid, materialistic, attention seeking women also exist. But the first time I hear a women say she is like that because she is a women it will be the first to call her out on it. That is my point. Yes there are men like this, but being a man is not what made them that way.

Some PEOPLE are crappy.
sokillme is online now  
post #66 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 11:20 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,606
Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
What happened to staying on topic and discussing the negative stereotypes of men?
Your post made me sad.

You pretty much described what I have striven to be for my forty some years, though my wife would probably tell you I could improve on the cleaning, I have offered to get a cleaning person because I know this is not my strength. I have 2 very good friends who are like brothers and are also these types of men.

I know plenty of guys, brother-in laws, my cousin, some people I am close to at work who are also like this. Being this way doesn't assure you a good marriage or love and respect that is for sure.

Anyway it's sad you don't have many men like these in your life. If you did I think you would be quick to hate the stereotype as I do.
sokillme is online now  
post #67 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 11:22 PM
Member
 
katiecrna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,467
Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sokillme View Post
I don't think you do get my point. I used the Kardashians for a reason. I could point to any number of Instagram account and associate that with today's women and say, women today are really failing terribly. The difference is this type of women is rarely seen except on reality TV. (In the same way that one of the posters said she was embarrassed for men with these cartoon dads, so am I embarrassed for women with these "real wives" for instance. And it's the women who watch those shows!) The difference is we don't see scripted shows written with many women like this. Not in the position of Mom anyway. Maybe we will eventually.



Are the stereotypes true, of course there are. In the same way this kind of vapid, materialistic, attention seeking women also exist. But the first time I hear a women say she is like that because she is a women it will be the first to call her out on it. That is my point. Yes there are men like this, but being a man is not what made them that way.



Some PEOPLE are crappy.


Of course materialistic women exist. Of course Peter griffin- like men Exist. I think that men and women can be generalized sometimes. Does not mean that they all are this way.

I can say women do things because they are women, just like I say men do things because they are men. Just like I can say... of course they do that, their Italian. Or of course they do that they have ADHD. Of course he thinks that way, his wife cheated on him. Of course she thinks that way, she was born with a gold spoon in her mouth. Of course she acts like that, she lost a child.

I don't know if these are considered crutches, but I think it sometimes it is what it is.
katiecrna is offline  
post #68 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 11:23 PM
Member
 
katiecrna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,467
Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sokillme View Post
If you did I think you would be quick to hate the stereotype as I do.


What stereotype exactly?
katiecrna is offline  
post #69 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 11:55 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,606
Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
What stereotype exactly?
The stereotype that men are a bunch of frat-boys and Homer Simpsons. Yes some men are that. The ones I know are nothing like that, never even went through a phase like that. I really can't think of one person like that in my life who I was close to. I can't think of one women who is like a Kardashian either.

Maybe that is because I wouldn't tolerate it, or maybe it's because they wouldn't tolerate my loathing. I just don't see a lot of real world people like that. On here yes. On TV. Not in real life.

So when I hear this is how men are I am insulted for myself and my male friends. It's like saying all women are gold diggers, I suspect if I say that to you you don't like it.
sokillme is online now  
post #70 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 12:08 AM
Member
 
katiecrna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,467
Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sokillme View Post
The stereotype that men are a bunch of frat-boys and Homer Simpsons. Yes some men are that. The ones I know are nothing like that, never even went through a phase like that. I really can't think of one person like that in my life who I was close to. I can't think of one women who is like a Kardashian either.



Maybe that is because I wouldn't tolerate it, or maybe it's because they wouldn't tolerate my loathing. I just don't see a lot of real world people like that. On here yes. On TV. Not in real life.



So when I hear this is how men are I am insulted for myself and my male friends. It's like saying all women are gold diggers, I suspect if I say that to you you don't like it.


I know many Homer Simpson like men... a lot. My dad included. Doesn't mean he is a bad guy. He just likes beer, the bars, sports, jokes around a lot, likes food, isn't a intellectual etc.

I understand what your saying, I guess I just disagree because I do see these things. I do see materialistic, gold digger women. I'm a nurse, there are literally nurses I know that have goals to marry a doctor.

There are many types of men and women. It doesn't offend me to hear that some women are gossipy, materialistic, gold diggers. I actually agree with this.

I am married to a surgeon. He is a great Christian man. If he were to cheat on me in 10 years... I would think well he is a surgeon, (as well as a scumbag). That doesn't mean all surgeons cheat, but that is what I would be thinking.
katiecrna is offline  
post #71 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 12:42 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,606
Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
I know many Homer Simpson like men... a lot. My dad included. Doesn't mean he is a bad guy. He just likes beer, the bars, sports, jokes around a lot, likes food, isn't a intellectual etc.

I understand what your saying, I guess I just disagree because I do see these things. I do see materialistic, gold digger women. I'm a nurse, there are literally nurses I know that have goals to marry a doctor.

There are many types of men and women. It doesn't offend me to hear that some women are gossipy, materialistic, gold diggers. I actually agree with this.

I am married to a surgeon. He is a great Christian man. If he were to cheat on me in 10 years... I would think well he is a surgeon, (as well as a scumbag). That doesn't mean all surgeons cheat, but that is what I would be thinking.
I know who you are, you and I pretty much agree on most things from your posts.

"He just likes beer, the bars, sports, jokes around a lot, likes food" is this a bad thing? This would describe about 90% of men and 40% of women (because of the sports) I know.

Not being intellectual doesn't make someone a bad husband or Homer Simpson. Is this really about his level of intellect or maybe education where your issue is? I ask because you are married to a surgeon and seem to get some pride in that (not saying that is a bad thing).

Homer is a lazy, grotesquely overweight bumbling, almost retarded level idiot with a heart of gold, he is a lazy parent, and a lazy husband. His motivation seems to be to watch TV and drink beer. His one redeeming quality is that he loves his family. This is how you would describe your father? Does he know you think of him this way? Does his wife think of him this way?

For his benefit I hope never finds out, especially if he really isn't like this and is just an ordinary Joe, as is what your original description of him says. No man should be put at the level of Homer because he doesn't spend time reading Ulysses and likes sports bars.
sokillme is online now  
post #72 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 01:08 AM
Member
 
katiecrna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,467
Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sokillme View Post
I know who you are, you and I pretty much agree on most things from your posts.

"He just likes beer, the bars, sports, jokes around a lot, likes food" is this a bad thing? This would describe about 90% of men and 40% of women (because of the sports) I know.

Not being intellectual doesn't make someone a bad husband or Homer Simpson. Is this really about his level of intellect or maybe education where your issue is? I ask because you are married to a surgeon and seem to get some pride in that (not saying that is a bad thing).

Homer is a lazy, grotesquely overweight bumbling, almost retarded level idiot with a heart of gold, he is a lazy parent, and a lazy husband. His motivation seems to be to watch TV and drink beer. His one redeeming quality is that he loves his family. This is how you would describe your father? Does he know you think of him this way? Does his wife think of him this way?

For his benefit I hope never finds out, especially if he really isn't like this and is just an ordinary Joe, as is what your original description of him says. No man should be put at the level of Homer because he doesn't spend time reading Ulysses and likes sports bars.


My father is passive aggressive. I have no emotional connection with him, but I love him If that makes sense. And yes I know there is a link with my dad and my husband, trust me I'm aware. My dad is lazy, and overweight. He worked hard to provide for him family, but that's it. He has never cooked, cleaned, or did laundry. He was not a good dad to a daughter. Don't get me wrong, I love him and he did the best that he could, which was better than his dad. But he treated me like a boy, like my older brothers. No emotional sensitivity at all. My dad never yelled, never punished us, couldn't tell you much about my life except the sports that I played. I could never get sympathy from him, if I hurt myself it wasn't a big deal for him I have to suck it up.
When I was young, my brothers and I and him went sledding, I hit a bump and landed on my face and instantly got a really bad bloody nose. My dad put me in the car, gave me his handkerchief, And said I'll turn the heat on for you, we're going to sled a little longer and we will be back, and left me. I was 7. My dad never took anything serious, and this drove my mom crazy. They would get into crazy fights because all my mom wanted was to be taken seriously. My mom left multiple times, and always came back. My dad didn't bat an eye. Something that my dad does that drives me and my mom crazy is when we are mad, he makes jokes. The more mad we get, the more he thinks it's funny. Which is why my mom would resort to physically throwing things like plates. He still acted like he couldn't care less. One time my mom threw a plate right at his head, he ducked, he then made this smart ass comment to us kids like he wasn't phased at all, then he went and sat down and watched tv like everything was normal while my mom was literally having a mental breakdown. When I was older like 17 I was driving and I saw my mom walking down a main road. I pulled over, she was crying hysterically. She told me... I am either going to kill him or kill my self. And she had herself committed voluntarily in the hospital for a few days. She came back, my dad didn't bat an eye. It was never talked about again. I don't want to go on bashing my dad because I do love him, but he was rough.
katiecrna is offline  
post #73 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 01:24 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,606
Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
My father is passive aggressive. I have no emotional connection with him, but I love him If that makes sense. And yes I know there is a link with my dad and my husband, trust me I'm aware. My dad is lazy, and overweight. He worked hard to provide for him family, but that's it. He has never cooked, cleaned, or did laundry. He was not a good dad to a daughter. Don't get me wrong, I love him and he did the best that he could, which was better than his dad. But he treated me like a boy, like my older brothers. No emotional sensitivity at all. My dad never yelled, never punished us, couldn't tell you much about my life except the sports that I played. I could never get sympathy from him, if I hurt myself it wasn't a big deal for him I have to suck it up.
When I was young, my brothers and I and him went sledding, I hit a bump and landed on my face and instantly got a really bad bloody nose. My dad put me in the car, gave me his handkerchief, And said I'll turn the heat on for you, we're going to sled a little longer and we will be back, and left me. I was 7. My dad never took anything serious, and this drove my mom crazy. They would get into crazy fights because all my mom wanted was to be taken seriously. My mom left multiple times, and always came back. My dad didn't bat an eye. Something that my dad does that drives me and my mom crazy is when we are mad, he makes jokes. The more mad we get, the more he thinks it's funny. Which is why my mom would resort to physically throwing things like plates. He still acted like he couldn't care less. One time my mom threw a plate right at his head, he ducked, he then made this smart ass comment to us kids like he wasn't phased at all, then he went and sat down and watched tv like everything was normal while my mom was literally having a mental breakdown. When I was older like 17 I was driving and I saw my mom walking down a main road. I pulled over, she was crying hysterically. She told me... I am either going to kill him or kill my self. And she had herself committed voluntarily in the hospital for a few days. She came back, my dad didn't bat an eye. It was never talked about again. I don't want to go on bashing my dad because I do love him, but he was rough.
Your Mom doesn't sound so great either throwing plates and all. Sounds like total dysfunction from head to toe. Have you had any IC to deal with that?
sokillme is online now  
post #74 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 01:37 AM
Member
 
katiecrna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,467
Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sokillme View Post
Your Mom doesn't sound so great either throwing plates and all. Sounds like total dysfunction from head to toe. Have you had any IC to deal with that?


My mother is a weak co-dependent person. She dealt with her problems by drinking. And when she was drunk things escalated. She created a very bad life for herself. She never worked, she was a SAHM, she didn't have a degree, or any skills. She was trapped in a crappy marriage, and her husband didn't respect her or take her seriously and there was nothing she could do, so she coped by drinking. My mom was raised by an alcoholic dad. All my moms siblings are functioning alcoholics.

No I haven't been to IC. I don't believe things like this get better by talking about it. It is what it is. They honestly did the best they could. My mom was a great amazing mom, not a good role model. My dad really is a kind person, he just wasn't a good dad or husband. My parents got through it, and I learned amazing lessons through them, on what not to be, and what to be. Today, my parents have a pretty good marriage. They are both fundamentally flawed people that have chose to accept each other for who they are, rugsweep and move on. My mom doesn't have healthy coping mechanisms, she is not emotionally stable and it's better for her to rug sweep than to dig up her crazy traumatic past up.
katiecrna is offline  
post #75 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 01:49 AM
Member
 
Keke24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Caribbean
Posts: 547
Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inmyprime View Post
It could be because your partner probably finds it hard to imagine doing the same despicable act and tries to find some possible rationalisation (such as midlife crisis/insanity) rather than choice. It doesn't mean he's excusing or siding with this behaviour. probably the opposite, if anything. (But then I also am finding myself siding with your partner disproportionately too much! There is probably a name for this condition...I just hope it's not male chauvinism
You always introduce a different interpretation that makes me rethink what I thought I understood and question everything over with the new understanding. Thinking in overdrive now lol
Keke24 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on Talk About Marriage, you must first register. Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Important! Your username will be visible to the public next to anything you post and could show up in search engines like Google. If you are concerned about anonymity, PLEASE choose a username that will not be recognizable to anyone you know.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Just really tired. really really tired. 2inthemorning General Relationship Discussion 13 12-12-2016 11:43 PM
Seperation starting, Im tired johnathen Going Through Divorce or Separation 5 05-31-2016 04:04 PM
Trust issues ........getting tired of it. Dannodown Reconciliation 9 05-11-2016 06:02 AM
Trust gone....... Getting tired Dannodown General Relationship Discussion 14 04-21-2016 07:44 AM
Tired of doing everything RANT MWPP731 Considering Divorce or Separation 21 03-31-2016 02:39 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome