Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness. - Talk About Marriage
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post #1 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 11:01 AM Thread Starter
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Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

This is a continued discussion from this post, because I didn't want to hijack the thread.


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Originally Posted by urf View Post
I don't want to hijack the thread but I do want to reply briefly. I don't think we disagree on what you said above. I also think that we are ignorant until we understand certain things. Speaking as a father of 3 sons all married with children, all in their 40's, I can tell you from observation that the men I raised and am very proud of are not the same in many ways as the boys I raised. True, certain core characteristics were there from the beginning. But all 3 of them have learned a lot about how to be good men, husbands and fathers. Amend that to say excellent men, husbands and fathers.

I was speaking for myself and confessing my own ignorance of what married life truly entailed. I like to think that having celebrated 50 years with the same wonderful woman that I was able to grow from ignorance to a level of wisdom and understanding on the subject of relationship.

I don't think that boys have changed that much over time. I am not as sensitive on the subject as perhaps you are. I think Homer Simpson and Peter Griffith are funny slices of life meant to expose our foibles not to define men in absolute terms.
First off this is not an attack on you. It's an attack on an idea. I know I sound harsh, that's kind of my MO unfortunately.

I am not saying this isn't a common problem with men, but being a man isn't the reason and saying it is has been a crutch on society. Men are just as capable of being emotionally intelligent as women. The problem is we don't hold them accountable and teach them how to be. I think a big part of the reason is this bull**** that men are emotionally incapable.

Homer and Peter Griffith are funny cartoon characters, they should be as fictional as a talking dog that solves mysteries. It's pathetic that they are not. Don't insult men by saying this is the default. I find this just as insulting as the woman's studies professors who equate violence to masculinity.
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post #2 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 12:59 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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Originally Posted by sokillme View Post
This is a continued discussion from this post, because I didn't want to hijack the thread.




First off this is not an attack on you. It's an attack on an idea. I know I sound harsh, that's kind of my MO unfortunately.

I am not saying this isn't a common problem with men, but being a man isn't the reason and saying it is has been a crutch on society. Men are just as capable of being emotionally intelligent as women. The problem is we don't hold them accountable and teach them how to be. I think a big part of the reason is this bull**** that men are emotionally incapable.

Homer and Peter Griffith are funny cartoon characters, they should be as fictional as a talking dog that solves mysteries. It's pathetic that they are not. Don't insult men by saying this is the default. I find this just as insulting as the woman's studies professors who equate violence to masculinity.
I agree. If a man is inadequate, it is on him. He has no right to blame it on men generally.
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post #3 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 01:46 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

This is an interesting discussion and something that has been on my mind as of late. I've realized that subconsciously, I have a lower starting point of respect for men vis-a-vis women because of the countless negative male examples that I've been exposed to, relative to the number of positive female examples. The difference is staggering. I can count on one hand all those I've come across over my childhood who I would consider responsible, mature men. So many examples of abusive men, even more walkout fathers and just general immaturity. I recall being with my sister during her difficult delivery while her husband was busy screwing another woman. His reason for cheating: he's a man and he has needs...

So I've been trying to be more aware of the way I interact with my partner. To figure out the ways in which I step on his toes as a man because of the negative generalizations about men that my experiences, society and the media have gradually ingrained in my subconscious. And to also get a better understanding of the fundamental differences between male/female interactions that cause unnecessary misunderstandings between us.

It's difficult for me as a woman to gauge, to what extent are my partner's failings a direct result of his innate tendencies as a male? To what extent are they his own personal inadequacies? It is difficult because so many of his mistakes seem to resonate with the experiences of other female friends/family and/or common faults among the posts here by, and about, men.
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post #4 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 02:02 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Sokillme is responsible for his own actions. He is not responsible for what me or Mr. The Other do or say.

If I run out and get drunk and hit a family of six, whose fault is it? Mine and mine alone.

No one wants to take responsibility anymore. -Johnny did it, why can't I- -Joan did it, why can't I-

Life is not a dress rehearsal and you can't just hit game reset when things don't go your way.

I've spent over 15 years in the classroom... I see it more and more.

A-Every single thing that has ever happened in your life is preparing you for a moment that is yet to come.
B-We know what we are, but know not what we may be
C-Never make the person in your present pay for the sins committed by people from your past
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post #5 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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Originally Posted by Keke24 View Post
This is an interesting discussion and something that has been on my mind as of late. I've realized that subconsciously, I have a lower starting point of respect for men vis-a-vis women because of the countless negative male examples that I've been exposed to, relative to the number of positive female examples. The difference is staggering. I can count on one hand all those I've come across over my childhood who I would consider responsible, mature men. So many examples of abusive men, even more walkout fathers and just general immaturity. I recall being with my sister during her difficult delivery while her husband was busy screwing another woman. His reason for cheating: he's a man and he has needs...

So I've been trying to be more aware of the way I interact with my partner. To figure out the ways in which I step on his toes as a man because of the negative generalizations about men that my experiences, society and the media have gradually ingrained in my subconscious. And to also get a better understanding of the fundamental differences between male/female interactions that cause unnecessary misunderstandings between us.

It's difficult for me as a woman to gauge, to what extent are my partner's failings a direct result of his innate tendencies as a male? To what extent are they his own personal inadequacies? It is difficult because so many of his mistakes seem to resonate with the experiences of other female friends/family and/or common faults among the posts here by, and about, men.
I am not sure if you are a man or a women. To add to your point. I had another discussion with someone on here about emotional intelligence and how men are less emotionally intelligent. Which is not a fact, however it is the stereotype. But this idea boomerangs because it is also just assumed that women are much more emotionally intelligent. But reading on here and other posts this is in no way true. For instance so many women expect their husbands to just assume what they are feeling and then get upset when they don't. The thing that really clicked with me is post by lesbians who's wives did the same thing. Posts by bisexual women who say they are done with women because "men just say what they need". The idea that people are just going to know how you feel seems to be a common misconception by a lot of women and does not point to a high level of emotional intelligence. My overall point is some people are born with a high emotional intelligence but most aren't. The men are not taught because they are thought to not be capable and the women are not taught because they are thought to not need teaching. These stereotypes do great damage to society and marriage.

Moving on to media examples, when I was growing up in the 80's the two TV Dad's I can think of were, Howard Cuttingham (Happy Days) whom I would say was a very good example of an emotionally, responsible father. And then came Cliff Huckstable (Cosby Show). Now no matter what Cosby turned out to be, I would say Cliff came off as good with his kids, but in a lot of ways he was a bumbling idiot in regards to his wife. She ran the show because a lot of times he was too stupid to do so. Unfortunately moving from that point I am hard pressed to see a very good example of a strong husband.

I have grown very tired of it.
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post #6 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 02:17 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

feminism!

special rights not equal rights.

just calling it like I see it.


77cents on the dollar........bull crap. thats not what the us government says look at the study and read it.

how about female teacher molesting young boys. compare the sentencing from men who do the same crime to women.


it all feminism demonizing men.
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post #7 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 02:17 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

@sokillme, female here.

It's interesting you brought up the Cosby Show. I recall asking my partner for an example of a male in the media who he would consider a fine example of a man, and he said the same, Cliff Huxtable. In addition to Cliff being a good father, he resonated with Cliff being a simple man who placed greatest emphasis on the happiness of his wife and family. Yet I too felt that he didn't make the greatest husband. And you put it perfectly with the description of him being a "bumbling idiot" with his wife. He just did not exude the emotional intelligence that is a critical factor in wife/husband interaction.
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post #8 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 02:26 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

I got a lot of stick for posting this on a thread months ago but I will say it again.
Men need to act like men,They are supposed to be the strong partner in a relationship but a lot of them don't act like it.Chuck71 had it right when he said this is not a dress rehearsal it's the real thing.The most sickening thing that I read about on tam is men who have children and for one reason or another feel they shouldn't have to support them,it's like "I screwed up this time but I promise to do better next time,you don't really expect me to pay for my mistakes do you".Then you have the permanent student,will do anything other than get a full time job and work to take care of his family.Then you get the ******* who has kids with two or more woman but can't support any of them.But my ****ing favourite is the guy who wants to "find himself",so he takes off and leaves his partner and kids to struggle on.You have men whose partner cheated so they leave and refuse to pay child support and "experts" on tam will give them legal advice on how not to support their own kids.
It makes me sick.
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post #9 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 02:36 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

Thank you for starting a separate thread. This has become interesting . I don't know if it the proper way to discuss these things but it would be helpful from my perspective to know something about the person I'm talking to. I believe that we all view and state the world through the filter of our own experiences. In that light
a person with negative relationship experiences will have a filter much different than my own.

I suggest ground rules. As in a brief description of your "filter".

My filter: Married 50 years, no divorce, no infidelity, 75 years old, 3 sons, 3 d-i-ls, all happily married, 7 grand daughters, many long tern friends.

To: Sokillme, I have read "Emotional Intelligence" by Dan Goleman many years ago. The point which I was so poor at delivering, of my posts was to offer hope to a young person based on my experience and my observations. Boys are not men. Often boys become men. Even in that case it does not happen overnight. It happens over time. Individuals mature at different rates. That should go without saying.

If Homer or Peter suddenly grew into mature men the shows would soon be off the air. I grew up during the days of Ozzie and Harriet (I think Ozzie may have been a terrible father despite his depiction on TV), Leave it to Beaver (Ward was a very good example) and Father Knows Best (they slept in separate beds).

This is where we came from example wise.
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post #10 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 02:38 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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I got a lot of stick for posting this on a thread months ago but I will say it again.
Men need to act like men,They are supposed to be the strong partner in a relationship but a lot of them don't act like it.Chuck71 had it right when he said this is not a dress rehearsal it's the real thing.The most sickening thing that I read about on tam is men who have children and for one reason or another feel they shouldn't have to support them,it's like "I screwed up this time but I promise to do better next time,you don't really expect me to pay for my mistakes do you".Then you have the permanent student,will do anything other than get a full time job and work to take care of his family.Then you get the ******* who has kids with two or more woman but can't support any of them.But my ****ing favourite is the guy who wants to "find himself",so he takes off and leaves his partner and kids to struggle on.You have men whose partner cheated so they leave and refuse to pay child support and "experts" on tam will give them legal advice on how not to support their own kids.
It makes me sick.
The thing with child support is that as you're paying it you have no idea that is goes toward actually helping the kids. All too often it ends up being spending money for the ex wife. That's one of the reasons I haven't divorced. The thing I actually like about paying college tuition is that I actually know that money is going to help the kids, not her.
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post #11 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 02:42 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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Originally Posted by Andy1001 View Post
I got a lot of stick for posting this on a thread months ago but I will say it again.
Men need to act like men,They are supposed to be the strong partner in a relationship but a lot of them don't act like it.Chuck71 had it right when he said this is not a dress rehearsal it's the real thing.The most sickening thing that I read about on tam is men who have children and for one reason or another feel they shouldn't have to support them,it's like "I screwed up this time but I promise to do better next time,you don't really expect me to pay for my mistakes do you".Then you have the permanent student,will do anything other than get a full time job and work to take care of his family.Then you get the ******* who has kids with two or more woman but can't support any of them.But my ****ing favourite is the guy who wants to "find himself",so he takes off and leaves his partner and kids to struggle on.You have men whose partner cheated so they leave and refuse to pay child support and "experts" on tam will give them legal advice on how not to support their own kids.
It makes me sick.
Indeed. I'm not sure why but it's almost comforting to hear this intolerance coming from a male.

Just yesterday I was having a conversation with my partner about him possibly mentoring 2 young boys (11 and 14) whose parents were close family friends. Their father walked out about a year ago to move in with his 20-something year old gf who's now pregnant. He has not made any contact with the boys since he left. Because this has been a common occurrence among my partner and his schoolmates, he was of the view that this must be some mid-life crisis or something that happens in the man's head after being with the same woman for an extended period of time. Some need to prove their youth and somehow the kids end up getting the short end of the stick. But in my mind, this kind of behaviour must point to a fundamental flaw in these males. I refuse to accept that the average man has the ability to simply walk away from his children. Why do I see this but my male partner does not rationalize it this way? It's like he too has these ingrained biases towards failings of men.

Last edited by Keke24; 03-23-2017 at 04:19 PM.
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post #12 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 02:49 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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The thing with child support is that as you're paying it you have no idea that is goes toward actually helping the kids. All too often it ends up being spending money for the ex wife. That's one of the reasons I haven't divorced. The thing I actually like about paying college tuition is that I actually know that money is going to help the kids, not her.
Is this a way of saying you want control?
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post #13 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:06 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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@sokillme, female here.

It's interesting you brought up the Cosby Show. I recall asking my partner for an example of a male in the media who he would consider a fine example of a man, and he said the same, Cliff Huxtable. In addition to Cliff being a good father, he resonated with Cliff being a simple man who placed greatest emphasis on the happiness of his wife and family. Yet I too felt that he didn't make the greatest husband. And you put it perfectly with the description of him being a "bumbling idiot" with his wife. He just did not exude the emotional intelligence that is a critical factor in wife/husband interaction.
Thoughts on Howard Cuttingham? I wonder what Gary Marshall (writer producer of Happy Days) early life and marriage was as compared to Bill Cosby. We all know who he turned out to be. Someone pointed this out and it's interesting that Cliff was a gynecologist who had is exam room in the basement of his house. Think about that for a moment in the context of what we know now. So creepy.
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post #14 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:09 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

I've always found characters like Peter Griffin and Homer Simpson to be annoying idiots that are frankly insulting to real men.

Fat, stupid idiots with wives that are supposedly way hotter and are somehow attracted to their fat, pathetic (but funny) ineptness. So not how things actually work.

I feel insulted on behalf of men when I see a commercial showing dad as a bumbling idiot who needs a little kid to show him how it is. I suppose they're somehow geared toward women, but my experience with actual men has been nothing like that.....even my ex who was king ass wasn't a bumbling idiot.

And my father, may he rest in piece, was a real man who handled business.

As is my husband.

Those cartoon characters have nothing to do with maleness and everything to do with idiocy. One has nothing to do with the other.
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post #15 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:16 PM
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Re: Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

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Is this a way of saying you want control?
Not control, I just don't want her to be able to blow all the money that's supposed to go toward support of the kids and come back to me and ask for more because they don't have money for essentials. I know that's what she would do.
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