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Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.

9K views 91 replies 18 participants last post by  Chuck71 
#1 ·
This is a continued discussion from this post, because I didn't want to hijack the thread.


I don't want to hijack the thread but I do want to reply briefly. I don't think we disagree on what you said above. I also think that we are ignorant until we understand certain things. Speaking as a father of 3 sons all married with children, all in their 40's, I can tell you from observation that the men I raised and am very proud of are not the same in many ways as the boys I raised. True, certain core characteristics were there from the beginning. But all 3 of them have learned a lot about how to be good men, husbands and fathers. Amend that to say excellent men, husbands and fathers.

I was speaking for myself and confessing my own ignorance of what married life truly entailed. I like to think that having celebrated 50 years with the same wonderful woman that I was able to grow from ignorance to a level of wisdom and understanding on the subject of relationship.

I don't think that boys have changed that much over time. I am not as sensitive on the subject as perhaps you are. I think Homer Simpson and Peter Griffith are funny slices of life meant to expose our foibles not to define men in absolute terms.
First off this is not an attack on you. It's an attack on an idea. I know I sound harsh, that's kind of my MO unfortunately.

I am not saying this isn't a common problem with men, but being a man isn't the reason and saying it is has been a crutch on society. Men are just as capable of being emotionally intelligent as women. The problem is we don't hold them accountable and teach them how to be. I think a big part of the reason is this bull**** that men are emotionally incapable.

Homer and Peter Griffith are funny cartoon characters, they should be as fictional as a talking dog that solves mysteries. It's pathetic that they are not. Don't insult men by saying this is the default. I find this just as insulting as the woman's studies professors who equate violence to masculinity.
 
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#2 ·
This is a continued discussion from this post, because I didn't want to hijack the thread.




First off this is not an attack on you. It's an attack on an idea. I know I sound harsh, that's kind of my MO unfortunately.

I am not saying this isn't a common problem with men, but being a man isn't the reason and saying it is has been a crutch on society. Men are just as capable of being emotionally intelligent as women. The problem is we don't hold them accountable and teach them how to be. I think a big part of the reason is this bull**** that men are emotionally incapable.

Homer and Peter Griffith are funny cartoon characters, they should be as fictional as a talking dog that solves mysteries. It's pathetic that they are not. Don't insult men by saying this is the default. I find this just as insulting as the woman's studies professors who equate violence to masculinity.
I agree. If a man is inadequate, it is on him. He has no right to blame it on men generally.
 
#3 ·
This is an interesting discussion and something that has been on my mind as of late. I've realized that subconsciously, I have a lower starting point of respect for men vis-a-vis women because of the countless negative male examples that I've been exposed to, relative to the number of positive female examples. The difference is staggering. I can count on one hand all those I've come across over my childhood who I would consider responsible, mature men. So many examples of abusive men, even more walkout fathers and just general immaturity. I recall being with my sister during her difficult delivery while her husband was busy screwing another woman. His reason for cheating: he's a man and he has needs...

So I've been trying to be more aware of the way I interact with my partner. To figure out the ways in which I step on his toes as a man because of the negative generalizations about men that my experiences, society and the media have gradually ingrained in my subconscious. And to also get a better understanding of the fundamental differences between male/female interactions that cause unnecessary misunderstandings between us.

It's difficult for me as a woman to gauge, to what extent are my partner's failings a direct result of his innate tendencies as a male? To what extent are they his own personal inadequacies? It is difficult because so many of his mistakes seem to resonate with the experiences of other female friends/family and/or common faults among the posts here by, and about, men.
 
#5 ·
I am not sure if you are a man or a women. To add to your point. I had another discussion with someone on here about emotional intelligence and how men are less emotionally intelligent. Which is not a fact, however it is the stereotype. But this idea boomerangs because it is also just assumed that women are much more emotionally intelligent. But reading on here and other posts this is in no way true. For instance so many women expect their husbands to just assume what they are feeling and then get upset when they don't. The thing that really clicked with me is post by lesbians who's wives did the same thing. Posts by bisexual women who say they are done with women because "men just say what they need". The idea that people are just going to know how you feel seems to be a common misconception by a lot of women and does not point to a high level of emotional intelligence. My overall point is some people are born with a high emotional intelligence but most aren't. The men are not taught because they are thought to not be capable and the women are not taught because they are thought to not need teaching. These stereotypes do great damage to society and marriage.

Moving on to media examples, when I was growing up in the 80's the two TV Dad's I can think of were, Howard Cuttingham (Happy Days) whom I would say was a very good example of an emotionally, responsible father. And then came Cliff Huckstable (Cosby Show). Now no matter what Cosby turned out to be, I would say Cliff came off as good with his kids, but in a lot of ways he was a bumbling idiot in regards to his wife. She ran the show because a lot of times he was too stupid to do so. Unfortunately moving from that point I am hard pressed to see a very good example of a strong husband.

I have grown very tired of it.
 
#4 ·
Sokillme is responsible for his own actions. He is not responsible for what me or Mr. The Other do or say.

If I run out and get drunk and hit a family of six, whose fault is it? Mine and mine alone.

No one wants to take responsibility anymore. -Johnny did it, why can't I- -Joan did it, why can't I-

Life is not a dress rehearsal and you can't just hit game reset when things don't go your way.

I've spent over 15 years in the classroom... I see it more and more.
 
#6 ·
feminism!

special rights not equal rights.

just calling it like I see it.


77cents on the dollar........bull crap. thats not what the us government says look at the study and read it.

how about female teacher molesting young boys. compare the sentencing from men who do the same crime to women.


it all feminism demonizing men.
 
#7 ·
@sokillme, female here.

It's interesting you brought up the Cosby Show. I recall asking my partner for an example of a male in the media who he would consider a fine example of a man, and he said the same, Cliff Huxtable. In addition to Cliff being a good father, he resonated with Cliff being a simple man who placed greatest emphasis on the happiness of his wife and family. Yet I too felt that he didn't make the greatest husband. And you put it perfectly with the description of him being a "bumbling idiot" with his wife. He just did not exude the emotional intelligence that is a critical factor in wife/husband interaction.
 
#13 ·
Thoughts on Howard Cuttingham? I wonder what Gary Marshall (writer producer of Happy Days) early life and marriage was as compared to Bill Cosby. We all know who he turned out to be. Someone pointed this out and it's interesting that Cliff was a gynecologist who had is exam room in the basement of his house. Think about that for a moment in the context of what we know now. So creepy.
 
#8 ·
I got a lot of stick for posting this on a thread months ago but I will say it again.
Men need to act like men,They are supposed to be the strong partner in a relationship but a lot of them don't act like it.Chuck71 had it right when he said this is not a dress rehearsal it's the real thing.The most sickening thing that I read about on tam is men who have children and for one reason or another feel they shouldn't have to support them,it's like "I screwed up this time but I promise to do better next time,you don't really expect me to pay for my mistakes do you".Then you have the permanent student,will do anything other than get a full time job and work to take care of his family.Then you get the ******* who has kids with two or more woman but can't support any of them.But my ****ing favourite is the guy who wants to "find himself",so he takes off and leaves his partner and kids to struggle on.You have men whose partner cheated so they leave and refuse to pay child support and "experts" on tam will give them legal advice on how not to support their own kids.
It makes me sick.
 
#10 ·
The thing with child support is that as you're paying it you have no idea that is goes toward actually helping the kids. All too often it ends up being spending money for the ex wife. That's one of the reasons I haven't divorced. The thing I actually like about paying college tuition is that I actually know that money is going to help the kids, not her.
 
#9 ·
Thank you for starting a separate thread. This has become interesting . I don't know if it the proper way to discuss these things but it would be helpful from my perspective to know something about the person I'm talking to. I believe that we all view and state the world through the filter of our own experiences. In that light
a person with negative relationship experiences will have a filter much different than my own.

I suggest ground rules. As in a brief description of your "filter".

My filter: Married 50 years, no divorce, no infidelity, 75 years old, 3 sons, 3 d-i-ls, all happily married, 7 grand daughters, many long tern friends.

To: Sokillme, I have read "Emotional Intelligence" by Dan Goleman many years ago. The point which I was so poor at delivering, of my posts was to offer hope to a young person based on my experience and my observations. Boys are not men. Often boys become men. Even in that case it does not happen overnight. It happens over time. Individuals mature at different rates. That should go without saying.

If Homer or Peter suddenly grew into mature men the shows would soon be off the air. I grew up during the days of Ozzie and Harriet (I think Ozzie may have been a terrible father despite his depiction on TV), Leave it to Beaver (Ward was a very good example) and Father Knows Best (they slept in separate beds).

This is where we came from example wise.
 
#14 ·
I've always found characters like Peter Griffin and Homer Simpson to be annoying idiots that are frankly insulting to real men.

Fat, stupid idiots with wives that are supposedly way hotter and are somehow attracted to their fat, pathetic (but funny) ineptness. So not how things actually work.

I feel insulted on behalf of men when I see a commercial showing dad as a bumbling idiot who needs a little kid to show him how it is. I suppose they're somehow geared toward women, but my experience with actual men has been nothing like that.....even my ex who was king ass wasn't a bumbling idiot.

And my father, may he rest in piece, was a real man who handled business.

As is my husband.

Those cartoon characters have nothing to do with maleness and everything to do with idiocy. One has nothing to do with the other.
 
#21 ·
I've always found characters like Peter Griffin and Homer Simpson to be annoying idiots that are frankly insulting to real men.



Fat, stupid idiots with wives that are supposedly way hotter and are somehow attracted to their fat, pathetic (but funny) ineptness. So not how things actually work.



I feel insulted on behalf of men when I see a commercial showing dad as a bumbling idiot who needs a little kid to show him how it is. I suppose they're somehow geared toward women, but my experience with actual men has been nothing like that.....even my ex who was king ass wasn't a bumbling idiot.



And my father, may he rest in piece, was a real man who handled business.



As is my husband.



Those cartoon characters have nothing to do with maleness and everything to do with idiocy. One has nothing to do with the other.


But look around. I think those cartoons are obviously exaggerated but there is some truth to them. It seems like at least when I look around with my biased POV that when women get married, they inherit another child. The thought of a man playing video games blows my mind and drives me crazy.
 
#16 ·
My filter: 30 year old female. Christian. Married to my high school sweet heart for 6 years. No kids. Grew up with strong females, passive men. I know I am biased to women.

I go back and forth. I for sure feel like men haven't evolved much compared to women, I don't think men in general have stepped up to the plate in many areas. I have a picture in my head with men in the 1940s-50s and the men today and how different they have became in a negative way.

I do disagree in that... men and women are different. And they are better in some areas than others. Especially emotional intelligence. That doesn't mean to say... men should be given a free pass to ignorance.

It's funny how all our outlooks on men vs women are. My in laws are very patriarchal. They think men can't do wrong, and they have little expectations for them.

As for Heath Cliff... I thought he was a great dad and husband. I grew up wanting to have their life and their marriage. Strong female educated wife. Strong but funny educated husband that respects his wife. I love that he just can't wait to get the kids out of the house so he can be with his wife. I love that he treated her like she was the most beautiful women in the world, he still dated her. He was moral and did the right thing.
 
#27 ·
There is a type of benevolent sexism that I think is not actually unhealthy. We can accept our partner as they, but sometimes this is just not possible, so we have to excuse them. An easy way of doing this is to say, "Men are rubbish like this...." or "Women are impossible like that....", it means we can use their sex to excuse our partner. I approve. Really.

"My in laws are very patriarchal. They think men can't do wrong, and they have little expectations for them." In the UK, the expectations for men are typically higher, which some men say is feminism gone to far, but I think it is a case of feminism leaving the job half done.

The main difference in men and women is physical. The rest is largely cultural (which does not make it trivial). I would not generally expect a woman to empathize with me in the way that I can typically empathize with her, I am a man and a man's man at that. When I have hard times, it is men who help me and understand. That does give me a different perspective to the archetypal "nice guy" who will get that support from women.
 
#19 ·
so whose fault is it? Is it parents fault for not teaching their boys better. Is it men's fault for not knowing. Or is it women's fault for lowering expectations and continuing the "boys will be boys", not holding them responsible.

The problem is... it's like supple and demand. You can hold a man accountable, he may get sick and tired of your unhappiness and "nagging" and go be with another women who expects much less from him and be happy while no one will ever met our expectations and we will forever be unhappy.

I have the viewpoint right now of... married. It is what it is. I gotta except things the way they are not the way I want them to be. I will never find peace if I don't. However, when I have kids... I will teach them to be better.
 
#38 ·
This thread is a complete SNAFU. As I've read it I've had several comments to make, but as soon as I think of one the topic shifts to something else. So in a foolish and vain attempt to catch up, I'm going to ask some questions that truthfully I don't expect satisfactory answers to.
- What is emotional intelligence? How is it measured? How do you test it? How and where is it taught?
- Why is it considered inadequate to make decisions based on numbers rather than on feelings?
- If men are the same as women, what is the big deal with same sex relationships? Cross dressing?
- And Why am I only attracted to one sort?
- It's Cunningham, not Cuttingham.
- How does @lifeistooshort 's model fit with Jamaica?

Good luck!
 
#56 ·
As I remember it.... there several types of intelligence. Intellectual is one and emotional is another. I have since read that there are nine more types which I can not recall at the moment.

Intellectual is obvious. Emotional is the ability to interact with people. Some people are genius at it. They can tell what you are feeling by a look on your face or a tone in your voice. It seems much harder to do on the net. Genius emotional people can manipulate others easily because of this talent. The thing I remember from the Dan Goleman book was a question: Smart people often have a boss. The Boss may not know what his employee knows but knows how to get the employee to do what he needs.

I don't know how you test it. Emotionally smart people are often the happiest people you meet. Not because they have money or power but because they have satisfaction.

I'm sure the book, Emotional Intelligence is still available but I suppose that the ideas set forward in the book have been updated.

Numbers over feelings is fine in the right circumstances. Logic is great. Humans are not necessarily logical all of the time. It is the result of evolution I believe. Everything we are is the culmination of trillions of choices. We and our feelings are a result. Intuition is an example of non logic. How does one pick a life partner? In some cultures it is the parents choice. In others we are left to discover the intuitive part of ourselves. Emotions seem to be intuitive. Compound that with rational and irrational intuition. Betting on horse because you like the jockeys shirt is irrational. Sifting through the odds and picking two horses you are left to choose between 2 equal possibilities. Use your best guess.

If men are the same as women, what is the big deal with same sex relationships? Cross dressing?


Human sexuality is the most difficult of all subjects to understand for me. I have thought a lot about it. First of all it takes place entirely in the mind. The body is the vehicle to manifest sexuality. Why the non-standard sexuality? I think it a combination of factors. I like the concept of imprinting. Like a new born duckling immediately bonds to the first thing it sees, humans also imprint. Sexuality involves arousal and at an early age arousal is associated with various triggers. When combined with a flood of hormones pumped into our systems there is a stronger than normal link made between various triggers and memory. In other words a touch resulting in sexual arousal yields a forever connection. We know that strong memories of anything are associated with a hormonal surge.

I'm still working on the above.

The only thing I remember about Jamaica is the ganja.
 
#86 · (Edited)
My expectations are reasonable, I mentioned my standards as being too high!

I would like a woman I find attractive, including kindness, beauty and intellect.

The harder bits, I would want respect, but not veneration. Insecurity can cause some women to put their men on a high pedestal, which sounds great. But, it means what you do is no longer respected. When you put yourself in danger, well you could cope easily. When you take care of her when you both have the flu, well disease does not really affect you. When you work hard, well, it is so easy for you. "I love you" often means, "I from now on rely on you to make me happy and that is my contribution to the relationship".

Such veneration is a killer, but the other side of that insecurity is poison dripping. Most men would die for their women, but living with someone who will continually try to put you down is not acceptable. Of course, we all have insecurities, but I would want the respect combined with the self-awareness not to let such insecurities ruin everything.

All that, and a partner who is also willing to contribute to the marriage - in an actual way rather than 'emotional support'. I do not mean to dismiss "emotional support" completely, as I give it to friends and receive it from friends. But often it means that feeling like you have contributed or claiming you did something is more important that actually doing it, which is BS.

It means that there is a respect and motivation that goes beyond convenience. I had a friend, LC. He had a romantic weekend planned with his girlfriend, but his brother committed suicide a couple of days before hand. He cancelled the weekend with his girlfriend and went up to see his family instead. Rather than being upset about her lost weekend, she instead went up with him, supported him and his family - making food and doing grocery shopping. Shortly afterwards he proposed and they are still together. Such a woman is very rare indeed, but very precious.

It is a fairly dull list, and fairly typical I would think. It does ask for self-awareness and commitment, but I know of women like this. I also know they are of limited number. I am forty now, and even with advantages (I can still go into town and get the numbers of young attractive women), I know the chances of finding all that are limited. But, I am rather happy on my own.

Sorry, it is all rather typical and boring. No great insights.

All that and Catholic would be ideal. But now we are getting into really little chance.
 
#62 ·
The point of this thread was not about anything we are talking about here. It was about negative stereotypes and how they are associated with maleness. And how some men propagate them and in effect hurt each other because of it. It was not for posters to come on here and tell us how men suck and the stereotypes are true.
 
#76 ·
I hold men to the same standards of adulthood I hold myself to. Basic senses of responsibility, charity, honor, loyalty, respect. In general, I find men to be a little more aware and demonstrative of concepts such as partnership, camaraderie, and fairness than women. Again, I speak in generalities. Case in point, I'm sitting in a waiting room for a blood draw. It's first come, first served. Man walks in and asks if I'm having blood drawn and adds his name under mine. Woman walks in and I saw her putting her name at the top of the list above us both. That's a crappy move that I'd not excuse from either gender, but IME I see women pull it all the time.

What irks me is that there are so few good male role models out there. Or perhaps, the good role models are tired of having to struggle against undoing the damage that so many young men have undergone. Women want good men, but they have neither the teachings, coachings, nor skills to live up to the expectations. I'm seeing more supportive programs out there to help. I hope it's not too late.
 
#84 ·
I am a woman and I agree there should be accountability with child support. I keep my kids money in a separate account. If a judge were ever to ask, I can just pull at the statement and it would be clear from the entries, every thing I did with the money went for the kids.

I have a friend (male) who pays 5,000/month and his kids still come to him for things like clothing and school supplies. Disgusting. Unfortunately, his X wife has no accountability and its wrong.
 
#89 ·
Some states do require child support as long as the children stay in college. Not mine, but then again we are not really a progressive politically important state. Which means that I am currently free from the possibility of paying Child support . . . . to my wife. It does nothing for The money I've shelled out this year to get D#2 to Graduation this year. Including a seminar in London. But, hey She was my side kick through the hardest year of my life. She has earned this. And I couldn't be more proud of her achievement. :::End Thread jack:::

Um stereotypes often lead us to poor policy decisions.
 
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