Who should pay on dates? - Page 31 - Talk About Marriage
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post #451 of 619 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 03:38 PM
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This is why it's important to have self confidence and worth as a man. Men are socialized into thinking manhood equates to putting women on a pedestal and thinking their value is worth more than you're own. Which is why insecure men think they owe women compensation for dates or they have to pay for their company.

I used to think this too when I was over weight and socially awkward. Then I got myself together an realize I shouldn't have to prove myself to a woman. We at minimum need to prove ourselves to each other. And considering modern women are as deep as a puddle in a rain shower and I have high SMV, she likely needs to prove herself to me.

That said I usually pay for the first date. But because it's just easier that way, not because I'm self loathing enough to think I owe it to a woman. After that initial date I always tell them when I pay that they have the next check. And they agree every time. If a woman recognizes your worth she'll pull out her wallet and pay for the whole thing with a smile on her face.

My current GF is an ex model who still has NFL and NBA players she knew in college trying to nab her. And she STILL pays for stuff with no problem and always have. If she's contributing then you better believe every other woman will.
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post #452 of 619 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 06:21 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Originally Posted by lovelygirl View Post
Do you think you should pay most of the time or you dislike it when you're the one paying most of/all the time?
Would you prefer she paid most of the time or you think both partners should take turns?
Is there any difference if you're at the early stages of dating/relationship ?
By traditional gender roles, the man is supposed to be the provider and the woman is supposed to be barefoot, pregnant, at home, actually making the house. I was taught this as I grew up, in a rather closed-minded environment.

Later in my life, when I left the social setting of my youth and ventured into university, I exposed myself to more influences that got me thinking along different lines: gender equality. The topic is heard about relentlessly in the adult world, whether it's through mainstream media, initiatives at one's employer, or the subject of academic research.

Two very different views of women offer two sets of answers to your questions. If a woman is seen as financially dependent, the man should assume his traditional role of provider, whether dating or in a more serious relationship. If the woman is seen as financially independent, the man expects a "tit for tat" arrangement, where he pays and then she pays (wash, rinse, repeat). Unfortunately, our society has double standards when it comes to men and women being equals, and in many places (including the realm of relationships), women get special treatment. This is very much a societal norm, hence some men expecting "tit for tat" arrangements will still pay for their dates at some point (i.e. beyond a first or second date). I was among these men, just like a lot of other guys.

Looking at this another way, guys who view dating as an economic transaction will find paying acceptable, as along as the benefits of paying across dates outweigh the costs. If a guy wants casual sex, he'll buy a gal some coffees and a few meals without a hitch, as long as that furthers his cause with enough (though not necessarily all) women he dates.
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post #453 of 619 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 07:32 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

Funny side note, on the Blown Off radio segment I hear on my way to work this morning this exact topic came up.

Two people went on date, she offered to pay for half the bill but he insisted on paying for the entire bill. She had no problems with this. However, he supposedly made it a point to remind her several times during the date that he paid the bill. The radio host asked him if this was done trying to deposit money in the "booty bank" (i.e. I paid for dinner so I expect a little extra something at the end). He claimed that it wasn't the case, he just wanted her to really know that if she was with him he would take care of her, how "manly" he was.

Separately, I do wonder how she would have reacted if when she offered to pay 1/2 he took her up on that. She mentioned she offered to pay for 1/2 simply b/c she didn't appear "prissy", but was happy that he paid because that was the man thing to do....
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post #454 of 619 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 08:00 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

On some of my past dates, I remember how some independent women were very quick to pay their bill, as if to short-circuit the chance that I might want to pay for them. This was interesting, because it gave me the impression that the women wanted to short-circuit my expectations of "something more" on the first date, even if that "something more" was only a kiss. The inherent "information asymmetries" in dating give rise to some odd behaviors as people try to figure out each others' objectives and find a good match.
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post #455 of 619 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 08:12 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Originally Posted by _anonymous_ View Post
On some of my past dates, I remember how some independent women were very quick to pay their bill, as if to short-circuit the chance that I might want to pay for them. This was interesting, because it gave me the impression that the women wanted to short-circuit my expectations of "something more" on the first date, even if that "something more" was only a kiss. The inherent "information asymmetries" in dating give rise to some odd behaviors as people try to figure out each others' objectives and find a good match.
One guy told me that when a woman insists on paying she is trying to say "I don't want to see you again."
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post #456 of 619 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 08:17 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

About 8-10 years ago when I was doing the online dating thing, I became quite active on the Plenty of Fish message forums.

I saw a pattern over the couple of years I was a member - many random women who came and went on those forums stated that they always tried to make sure to pay their half of the bill on a date when they knew they weren't interested in a second date with that person. It was a very, very common theme I saw posted over and over. I just wonder if that still holds true 10 years later.
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post #457 of 619 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 09:08 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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One guy told me that when a woman insists on paying she is trying to say "I don't want to see you again."
In my experience of dating, albeit in the dark ages of 1992 through 1996 when I was a young chap of 21-25. Whenever a woman paid for all or half, it always led to sex on the first through fourth date. Whereas through that time, it didn't always lead to sex whenever I paid for all of it.

For the most part though, dating was the slow path to sharing sex with a woman. Since it wasn't uncommon for me to go to a party or a nightclub and have different women and sometimes men approach me. Then following some banter would ask me to have sex with them or more crudely and less frequently offer me sex in the first instance.

What would usually happen, was I would have sex with a woman (well the ones I said yes to) at a party, nightclub or their place. Who would say "you're cute/pretty/handsome" or "you have nice eyes/smile etc". Then on some occasions we would then start dating afterwards if we both wanted more, where we would both share the costs of dating from the beginning.

Or I would be asked out on a date by a woman who knew me from one of my social circles, work or had just met me etc. Then they would most often usually pay, or we would share the costs (I always would offer to pay though). Where we would invariably have sex by the fourth date (usually through their initiation or request).

The only times when I didn't have sex with a woman I dated, was on a few occasions when I did the pursuing, asking out and covered all costs.
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post #458 of 619 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 09:16 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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In my experience of dating, albeit in the dark ages of 1992 through 1996 when I was a young chap of 21-25. Whenever a woman paid for all or half, it always led to sex on the first through fourth date. Whereas through that time, it didn't always lead to sex whenever I paid for all of it.


Or I would be asked out on a date by a woman who knew me from one of my social circles, work or had just met me etc. Then they would most often usually pay, or we would share the costs (I always would offer to pay though). Where we would invariably have sex by the fourth date (usually through their initiation or request).

The only times when I didn't have sex with a woman I dated, was on a few occasions when I did the pursuing, asking out and covered all costs.
Dividing most of your dating history into 2 groups:

1. those women who paid AND had sex with you by the fourth date
2. those who expected you to pay for everything and you never had sex with them (by what date did you usually determine this?)

What was your opinion of these two groups in real time / at that time?

Did you think that members of Group 1 were easy and therefore of no value?

Did you think that members of Group 2 were challenging / of quality / worth your valuable resources (time, money, favors, etc) because if they made you wait they "knew their value" or something like that?
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post #459 of 619 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 05:49 PM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Originally Posted by She'sStillGotIt View Post
About 8-10 years ago when I was doing the online dating thing, I became quite active on the Plenty of Fish message forums.

I saw a pattern over the couple of years I was a member - many random women who came and went on those forums stated that they always tried to make sure to pay their half of the bill on a date when they knew they weren't interested in a second date with that person. It was a very, very common theme I saw posted over and over. I just wonder if that still holds true 10 years later.
I had never heard that about women who paid for 1/2 or part of dating but I have heard and experienced a woman who insisted on paying for the whole thing not being interested.

Most the women I have met wanted to contribute. Many just wanted to avoid any feelings of obligation.
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post #460 of 619 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 02:39 PM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

Awww, c'mon..... I was hoping to get some thoughtful responses to my post no. 458.

Opinions from both men and woman are welcomed.
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post #461 of 619 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 03:10 PM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Originally Posted by lovelygirl View Post
I friend of mine, 35 y.o. is single and hasn't been in a realtionship for 3 years now. During one of our discussions, she said "I don't need just a guy in my life... I need a man. But where are men today? To even think that they can't even pay you a dinner? A real man wouldn't allow me to pay for the dinner, even if I insisted on doing so...".

This got me thinking if men here agree with this saying or not.

Do you think you should pay most of the time or you dislike it when you're the one paying most of/all the time?
Would you prefer she paid most of the time?
or you think both partners should take turns?
Is there any difference if you're at the early stages of dating/relationship ?

I will say my opinion later.
IMO, anybody who thinks in such a black-and-white manner probably doesn't see 99% of the rainbow of colors that make up real life.

Who pays on dates? What a wonderful first topic to use as a means of learning how to collaborate with each other!!!

There are three kinds of business. Your business, my business and God's business. Whose business are you in? -Byron Katie
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post #462 of 619 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 09:12 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Awww, c'mon..... I was hoping to get some thoughtful responses to my post no. 458.

Opinions from both men and woman are welcomed.
I'll respond when I've got time and am not using my iPad.
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post #463 of 619 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 09:18 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Dividing most of your dating history into 2 groups:

1. those women who paid AND had sex with you by the fourth date
2. those who expected you to pay for everything and you never had sex with them (by what date did you usually determine this?)

What was your opinion of these two groups in real time / at that time?

my dating history was expansive. I had a lot of first dates (150 or so). Far fewer second dates, less than a dozen third dates 7 of which lead to relationships lasting longer than 6 months.

My opinion on group one is that they value themselves, me and the realtionship trying to be built. They don't want to be a sideline passenger in the foundation building they want an active roll.

My opinion on group two is they are entitled. They want an unequal relationship dynamic.... my personal opinion is that this is how they will approach the whole relationship. What can you give me and what can I take. Generally doesn't take 4 dates to figure this out though


Did you think that members of Group 1 were easy and therefore of no value?

contrary I think they are full of self worth. They don't feel entitled to anything and want to be partners and contribute. Very sexy

Did you think that members of Group 2 were challenging / of quality / worth your valuable resources (time, money, favors, etc) because if they made you wait they "knew their value" or something like that?
I know you probably didn't mean it like this but group two sounds like game players to me. Like something out of a rule book on how to attract men when in fact it may be a turn off to many. Game playing at any time is a turn off. Selfishness is a turn off. Entitlement is a turnoff. Group two would have little appeal to me and since very few made it to date two and none to date three I am comfortable in the fact that we just aren't compatible.
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post #464 of 619 (permalink) Old 04-26-2017, 02:00 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Dividing most of your dating history into 2 groups:

1. those women who paid AND had sex with you by the fourth date
2. those who expected you to pay for everything and you never had sex with them (by what date did you usually determine this?)
Most of my dating history was of having sex with women who I had just met at parties, pubs and nightclub etc, which was then sometimes followed by dating them (inclusive of my ex-wife). Or of women asking me out on dates that I said yes to, who I knew from different social circles or work (inclusive of my wife).

Plus a few women who I asked out and had sex with, which includes my third longest sexual relationship partner.

What you call Group 2, is just four women.

Of those four women, two didn't go past the first date and one didn't get past the second date, because I didn't get the feeling that they wanted to have sex with me (no sexual tension to the point that the air would feel thick and buzzing). While I let the last woman go after our third (fourth date if you count coming to mine), because of mixed signals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NextTimeAround View Post
What was your opinion of these two groups in real time / at that time?
My opinion of all that I dated or had sex with at the time was the same. If I was dating someone or having sex with them, with one exception in the first instance I considered them all to be potentially worthy of being in an ongoing interminable sexual relationship with me.

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Originally Posted by NextTimeAround View Post
Did you think that members of Group 1 were easy and therefore of no value?
No I didn't/don't think any of the women I have had sex with were easy or of no value. In fact I like/d the fact that those women had sex with me within minutes or hours of meeting me, through to having sex with me on the first date to the fourth date in the first instance.

I liked them, they liked me and at the time we all wanted to share sex with each other, which is in my opinion the whole point of dating and establishing ongoing sexual relationships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NextTimeAround View Post
Did you think that members of Group 2 were challenging / of quality / worth your valuable resources (time, money, favors, etc) because if they made you wait they "knew their value" or something like that?
Excempting one who was all over the place in terms of what she wanted. The other three didn't make me wait (it was too early to tell if they were making me wait), I just didn't have sex with them.

That said I didn't/don't think the members of Group 2 were particularly challenging at all, nor did/do I think they were of greater or lesser quality than anyone else I dated. The only difference between them and the others is I didn't sense any sexual desire and was getting mixed signals with one of them.

The one who was all over the place, I dated once (I asked her out so I paid) in 1993 and slept with her (the counting sheep kind) at her place sans sexual intercourse. Yet I did kiss her nipples and other stuff etc, yet she said that she had just broken up with a boyfriend and wasn't sure if she wanted more, so we didn't do more than that.

Then she got upset with me a couple of days later, because she thought I had told some of our friends I spent the night with her. I told nobody, yet that didn't stop my flatmate telling people I didn't come home when I went on a date with her. So thus ended that relationship in 1993.

Then in 1996 just before my wife asked me out on our first date, we caught up again and went on two dates where I paid all, (I did the asking) and she came over to my place one night after that, which didn't cost me anything. Yet again as before I slept with her after sans sexual intercourse.

She was all on/off and stop/go about sex, which was something I had never experienced before. Since I didn't care for the run around and didn't lack sexual opportunities, I just didn't ask her out again after that.

At the end of the day I figure many of us are all trying to achieve the same end through different valid approaches.

If one is withholding sex in dating, I figure they're for the most part doing it for religious reasons and or they think sex is sacred etc. So they choose to develop an emotional relationship before they invest in a sexual one.

Likewise when I had sex early on in dating, it is because I am not religious, don't consider sex to be sacred and am unwilling to invest in anyone emotionally in a sexual relationship before I know the sex is good.

People who follow the former or the latter are both as capable or incapable as the other, in establishing successful ongoing long term sexual relationships with likeminded people.
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post #465 of 619 (permalink) Old 04-26-2017, 03:48 AM
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Cool Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Funny side note, on the Blown Off radio segment I hear on my way to work this morning this exact topic came up.

Two people went on date, she offered to pay for half the bill but he insisted on paying for the entire bill. She had no problems with this. However, he supposedly made it a point to remind her several times during the date that he paid the bill. The radio host asked him if this was done trying to deposit money in the "booty bank" (i.e. I paid for dinner so I expect a little extra something at the end). He claimed that it wasn't the case, he just wanted her to really know that if she was with him he would take care of her, how "manly" he was.

Separately, I do wonder how she would have reacted if when she offered to pay 1/2 he took her up on that. She mentioned she offered to pay for 1/2 simply b/c she didn't appear "prissy", but was happy that he paid because that was the man thing to do....
Sounds greatly like his entire aim in paying for the date is pretty much predicated on his ages old, masculine-held, quid pro quo belief system, in that by his monetary payment for such, that she'll "reward" him with a little well-deserved "wuzz" at the end of the evening!

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