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post #106 of 628 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 10:02 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Sometimes, I really wonder about the accuracy of that statement!
You seem to be attracting plenty of gals at your church, arb.

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post #107 of 628 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 10:05 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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I am not even sure it is generational. There have always been women who earned money, for example, and women who accepted to carry their husbands, financially and otherwise, through life.

I think this is more about a woman's expectations and what a man considers his responsibilities.
I think it is generational as many more women now are working full time, making good money, etc... vs in the past. The problem, and if you look at your post, you somehow translate this into people saying a woman who accepts carrying their husbands financially and otherwise, which is furthest from what people here have been saying.

As well, it is about expectations/responsibilities of both men and women, not expectation of one vs responsibility of the other.
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post #108 of 628 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 10:09 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Not to be intentionally contradictory, but sometimes, I really wonder about the accuracy of that statement!
The way I view it, you may be able to attract more thanks to money/power, but maybe you are attracting more for all the wrong reasons, IDK.

I would say that at face value, money/power is a more attractive feature for a guy to have in terms of attracting a female, whereas I don't think the opposite (a woman with money/power) elicits the same response from men. On the other side, you could argue that a woman's physical looks could attract more males. Just general statements here, does in no way apply to everyone of course, and doesn't mean that having these qualities ensures you will find the person who will make you happy.
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post #109 of 628 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 10:09 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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I think it is generational as many more women now are working full time, making good money, etc... vs in the past. The problem, and if you look at your post, you somehow translate this into people saying a woman who accepts carrying their husbands financially and otherwise, which is furthest from what people here have been saying.
I don't think it is a stretch to imagine those young women that Andy describes as ending up carrying their husbands through life.

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As well, it is about expectations/responsibilities of both men and women, not expectation of one vs responsibility of the other.
In a way that may be true. But I still think the slant is more in one direction, at least in the context of this thread.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #110 of 628 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 10:19 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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I don't think it is a stretch to imagine those young women that Andy describes as ending up carrying their husbands through life.
I think a part though that is open to personal interpretation is what constitutes "carrying their H through life."
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post #111 of 628 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 10:34 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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I think a part though that is open to personal interpretation is what constitutes "carrying their H through life."
Well, in the case of those gals, it may be financially as well as emotionally.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #112 of 628 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 10:38 AM
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Cool Re: Who should pay on dates?

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You seem to be attracting plenty of gals at your church, arb.
Trust me, @jld ~ none that are remotely attractive to me or even me to them; or who can even begin to stimulate me with looks or intellectually. And vice-versa!

And while I'll be the very first to admit that I'm no "world-beater" myself, there's no woman at my church who really begins to pique my interest!

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Last edited by arbitrator; 03-28-2017 at 10:45 AM. Reason: Edification
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post #113 of 628 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 10:39 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Well, in the case of those gals, it may be financially as well as emotionally.
Once again though, what does that mean exactly? How do you equate him paying/not paying as requiring to be emotionally carried? Likewise, financially, what do you consider carrying him (i.e. is it is simple as her making more then him, is it some percentage more, etc...)?
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post #114 of 628 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 10:45 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Trust me, @jld ~ none that are remotely attractive to me or even me to them; or who can even begin to stimulate me with looks or intellectually.

And while I'll be the very first to admit that I'm no "world-beater" myself, there's no woman at my church who really begins to pique my interest!
And that is often the challenge, isn't it, arb? Finding mutual attraction.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #115 of 628 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 10:48 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Once again though, what does that mean exactly? How do you equate him paying/not paying as requiring to be emotionally carried? Likewise, financially, what do you consider carrying him (i.e. is it is simple as her making more then him, is it some percentage more, etc...)?
I just do not see good things coming from young men who expect a date to pay for herself, and maybe him, too. Certainly not what I want for my own daughter.

A man who sits on the couch and plays video games all day while his wife earns the family income, cleans the house, and raises the kids has to start somewhere, right?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #116 of 628 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 11:18 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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I was talking about this thread tonight with my sons. The oldest said that men usually *want* to pay on a date, because it is a way of asserting dominance. He said that if the man does not pay, it is not a date.

I think his comment on dominance relates to the building of sexual tension by paying that someone here (@Bananapeel?) alluded to earlier. Now, this is probably only going to work if there is a male dom/fem sub dynamic already present. (Reverse who pays if you are in a domme/male sub relationship.)
It's true for me. I find it very easy to date using the traditional role model dynamic. I'm very adept at finding women that like that dynamic too, and can screen out women that don't really click with my dating style during a first date. I find that the traditional dating roles does build up sexual tension so the women usually want to have sex within a date or two, if I'm interested. It is also very easy to maintain a highly sexual relationship for as long as I'm dating the woman once those relationship roles are established. As far as the cost goes, it really is negligible. I consider dating a form of entertainment and plan it into my entertainment budget, so I don't worry about the little bit of money. I've found that for women even getting ready for a date is part of the sexual build up for them. All the time that they spend getting their hair/nails done, choosing clothes, etc. is a prelude to an evening where they know they just have to relax and enjoy and I'll take care of everything (choosing the venue, covering the cost, making the moves on them). It works for my personality type and taking on the traditional male role is part of the buildup of sexual tension for me too.
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post #117 of 628 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 11:28 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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I just do not see good things coming from young men who expect a date to pay for herself, and maybe him, too. Certainly not what I want for my own daughter.

A man who sits on the couch and plays video games all day while his wife earns the family income, cleans the house, and raises the kids has to start somewhere, right?
I think you are trying to take the extreme with the bolded to make your point, as I don't find that to be the norm.

What I see more of, dual parent working households, both contributing in terms financially, raising kids, housework, etc...
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post #118 of 628 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 11:30 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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I think part of the issue in general is how the roles of men and women have changed, which in many respects conflicts with the more conservative stance some here share (including myself). For example, you hear about women wanting to be treated as equals, women equaling/exceeding men financially, etc... (all things I have no issues with) but then some of those very same women expect special treatment b/c they are women. So which is it, you want to be treated as equal or you want special treatment (or you want both as long as it benefits you). Something doesn't quite jive with this. On the other side, you have some here claiming that a guy's "trustworthiness" is based on his willingness to pay for dates, or the real doosie is claiming that a guy should always pay to simply avoid giving a woman too much power

I do wonder, for women who are doing well financially, is there some sort of sliding scale as to when you should offer to pay or contribute (not factoring in marriage or maybe a LTR where your finances are all commingled), or is it basically "You aren't a real man if I have to ever pay".

Unfortunately, if you expect that a guy needs to wine/dine you indefinitely, then you can't complain when he has an expectation that this should lead to sex.

All you can hope, is that both people are honest about their expectations, lay the cards out there and see where they fall, instead of playing games based on your own personal expectations.
When women generally make 80 cents on the dollar, how do you think that happens?
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post #119 of 628 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 11:33 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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When women generally make 80 cents on the dollar, how do you think that happens?
Is that in fact true? I have seen several reports that have disproven this, and shown the "wage gap" is significantly less than reported.

I also do know quite a few women who are doing well for themselves financially, better then men ...

Quick edit - I don't want to sidetrack this thread as the "wage gap" is really a different topic.
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post #120 of 628 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 11:54 AM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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It's true for me. I find it very easy to date using the traditional role model dynamic. I'm very adept at finding women that like that dynamic too, and can screen out women that don't really click with my dating style during a first date. I find that the traditional dating roles does build up sexual tension so the women usually want to have sex within a date or two, if I'm interested. It is also very easy to maintain a highly sexual relationship for as long as I'm dating the woman once those relationship roles are established. As far as the cost goes, it really is negligible. I consider dating a form of entertainment and plan it into my entertainment budget, so I don't worry about the little bit of money. I've found that for women even getting ready for a date is part of the sexual build up for them. All the time that they spend getting their hair/nails done, choosing clothes, etc. is a prelude to an evening where they know they just have to relax and enjoy and I'll take care of everything (choosing the venue, covering the cost, making the moves on them). It works for my personality type and taking on the traditional male role is part of the buildup of sexual tension for me too.
I couldn't agree more with everything you have written here.When a woman really relaxes in your company she is automatically feeling attracted to you imo.I never pressured dinner dates,I gave them my undivided attention all night and when it was time to go home I never even vaguely hinted at coming with them.Jld talks about power in a relationship and she is right.These women felt they had the power to either sleep with me or not and I gave them the impression that I was happy either way.And with hand on heart I would say my success rate was over ninety percent.By the end of the night they began to see me as a challenge rather than themselves as a prize.
I had two big advantages over the other men in the dating pool.
I NEVER got emotionally attached to anyone until I met my current gf and by my early twenties I had money to burn.
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