Who should pay on dates? - Page 9 - Talk About Marriage
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post #121 of 515 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 12:48 PM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

on the 80c/dollar, the answer depends on exactly what question you are asking.

Are you correcting for job choice, present position and career path? Is such a correction even the right thing to do, or does it hide the very issue you are trying to measure?

I think the question you want to answer is if an equally skilled and ambitious woman and man attempt to follow the same career path, on average will they have equal success and pay. Even that answer may depend dramatically on which career path is chosen.




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Is that in fact true? I have seen several reports that have disproven this, and shown the "wage gap" is significantly less than reported.

I also do know quite a few women who are doing well for themselves financially, better then men ...

Quick edit - I don't want to sidetrack this thread as the "wage gap" is really a different topic.
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post #122 of 515 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 01:53 PM
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Once again though, what does that mean exactly? How do you equate him paying/not paying as requiring to be emotionally carried? Likewise, financially, what do you consider carrying him (i.e. is it is simple as her making more then him, is it some percentage more, etc...)?
I just do not see good things coming from young men who expect a date to pay for herself, and maybe him, too. Certainly not what I want for my own daughter.
I flat out told my girlfriend that I disagree with the societal expectation that I pay for everything, especially since she made significantly more than me at the time. (Our incomes are now virtually identical.) That's not to say that I didn't pay sometimes, because I did.

However, so did she. And I let her. It had created a much more egalitarian relationship than I've ever had before. We don't keep score, we don't get resentful, and we just go with the flow. If I ever want to save money by not going out, I tell her that. If she chooses to pay my way so we can go out anyway, that's her choice, but I don't expect it. Otherwise we stay in.

I am teaching my daughter to take care of herself and pay her own way through this world. She's not going to depend on a guy for material wealth or even a simple meal. If she goes out, she can pay her own way. I'd teach the same exact thing if I had a son instead of a daughter.

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A man who sits on the couch and plays video games all day while his wife earns the family income, cleans the house, and raises the kids has to start somewhere, right?
This has nothing to do with anything regarding the topic at hand.
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post #123 of 515 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 02:11 PM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

Some thoughts I have about dating and money / costs:

1. I think men understand the symbolism of their behavior. This includes paying for dates, gifts and transportation and other entertainment. A rich guy may take a woman to an expensive restaurant and pay the whole bill, but he probably won't care about her transport to and from the restaurant.

OTOH, a guy who has less money to spend will go to a less expensive restaurant but then will pick her up or pay for her taxi.

2. Likewise, I've noticed that even though a guy takes you to dinner on your birthday, if he doesn't give you a gift, well, once again you're not that special.

3. My experience tells me that if you don't spend a guy's money he will lower his opinion of you. Choose a more casual (ie less expensive) restaurant, and instead of being glad that you're low maintenance, he will call you a cheap date.

4. Help to split the cost of a date? That makes him capable of multi-dating you.... and better still, he won't hassle the other one about helping to pay.
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post #124 of 515 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 02:16 PM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Originally Posted by musicftw07 View Post
I flat out told my girlfriend that I disagree with the societal expectation that I pay for everything, especially since she made significantly more than me at the time. (Our incomes are now virtually identical.) That's not to say that I didn't pay sometimes, because I did.

However, so did she. And I let her. It had created a much more egalitarian relationship than I've ever had before. We don't keep score, we don't get resentful, and we just go with the flow. If I ever want to save money by not going out, I tell her that. If she chooses to pay my way so we can go out anyway, that's her choice, but I don't expect it. Otherwise we stay in.

I am teaching my daughter to take care of herself and pay her own way through this world. She's not going to depend on a guy for material wealth or even a simple meal. If she goes out, she can pay her own way. I'd teach the same exact thing if I had a son instead of a daughter.

This has nothing to do with anything regarding the topic at hand.
Well, I think it does.

And I would like to help young women avoid going down that path.

My daughter is graduating very soon with her engineering degree. She certainly does not need a man.

But if a man decides he wants her, I am reassured to know that she has very good weeder criteria in place.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #125 of 515 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 02:21 PM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

I try not to make dates displays of spending power; I'd rather do something active and outdoorsy that focuses on conversation instead of ostentation.

But, if I'm asking her out, then I expect to pay for whatever costs arise. It's nicer if she offers to chip in or just graciously says "thanks" than if she seems noticeably entitled. And if despite this framing a woman insisted on splitting the tab on an early date, I'd take it as a possible sign of imminent friend-zoning; an implied "hey, i don't want to feel like I owe you anything romantically."

So yeah, I expect to pay first time, as I'm usually the one doing the inviting. However: In a continuing relationship, I also expect that the woman will reciprocate & suggest outings herself rather than simply following me around like a puppy dog. And if next week she's on fire to see movie x and eat at cafe y, then she can pay and I can thank her for a great evening.

That back-and-forth arrangement works pretty well, since I hate trying to divvy up bills on the spot, which really kills the mood. It also lets each person feel treated and cared for in turn.

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So here is a question. For the folks that prefer an even split of some sort, how do you maintain sexual attraction?
Why on earth should that be difficult? I'd have a harder time maintaining sexual attraction with someone who expected me to white-knight everything in her life. I won't stick up for lazy men who won't put any thought into dates, but I can't stand women who won't embrace their own agency as human beings.

It isn't cute or endearing or "old-fashioned", just annoying as **** and a massive boner-killer. It makes sex feel disconcertingly transactional, a reward I may get for being chivalrous etc, instead of something we both want and share. No, thanks. And if she can't experience sexual attraction unless I "dominantly" open my wallet every time we go out, then she won't be dating me for long.
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post #126 of 515 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 02:31 PM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

It seems to be working pretty well for Bananapeel.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #127 of 515 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by musicftw07 View Post
I flat out told my girlfriend that I disagree with the societal expectation that I pay for everything, especially since she made significantly more than me at the time. (Our incomes are now virtually identical.) That's not to say that I didn't pay sometimes, because I did.

However, so did she. And I let her. It had created a much more egalitarian relationship than I've ever had before. We don't keep score, we don't get resentful, and we just go with the flow. If I ever want to save money by not going out, I tell her that. If she chooses to pay my way so we can go out anyway, that's her choice, but I don't expect it. Otherwise we stay in.

I am teaching my daughter to take care of herself and pay her own way through this world. She's not going to depend on a guy for material wealth or even a simple meal. If she goes out, she can pay her own way. I'd teach the same exact thing if I had a son instead of a daughter.

This has nothing to do with anything regarding the topic at hand.
Well, I think it does.

And I would like to help young women avoid going down that path.

My daughter is graduating very soon with her engineering degree. She certainly does not need a man.

But if a man decides he wants her, I am reassured to know that she has very good weeder criteria in place.
It's good to have weeder criteria, no doubt about it. However, the criterion that a man always pays is going to weed out guys who don't fit your model. I make $65k/year, own my house, own my car outright, have great credit, raise my daughter on my own 50% of the time, and have a substantial savings.

I just don't believe your daughter is entitled to a man always paying for her simply because she has a vagina. Especially when she has the ability to pay for herself.
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post #128 of 515 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 02:39 PM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

This should throw the cat amongst the pigeons.
To the guys who expect or insist that their dates pay for themselves or pay every second date can I ask you at what level of attractiveness are you dealing with.Any tens,nines even.I really want to know is there a level at which you think a woman shouldn't expect the man to pay for everything.
Anyone?
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post #129 of 515 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 02:45 PM
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This should throw the cat amongst the pigeons.
To the guys who expect or insist that their dates pay for themselves or pay every second date can I ask you at what level of attractiveness are you dealing with.Any tens,nines even.I really want to know is there a level at which you think a woman shouldn't expect the man to pay for everything.
Anyone?
Attractiveness level has nothing to do with it. I don't care if the woman is a perfect 10 (and my girlfriend is at least an 8); if she *expects* me to pay for her, I walk.

A relationship is a want, not a need. I love my girlfriend with all my heart and want to spend the rest of my life with her. But I don't need her.

However, I do need financial independence and solvency to have a good life and raise my child.

Same rules apply, regardless of sex or attractiveness.
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post #130 of 515 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 02:48 PM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Not sure I understand why you think sexual attraction is keyed to money. I have always made a blue collar living. I have never been rich and honestly never want to be. I don't drive fancy cars or have a fancy house or wardrobe. I have always maintained that relationships should be 50-50 but that doesn't mean equal. But financially a woman I am with will need to contribute as I'm not interested in financing everything thing we do. Never have I been in a sexless relationship. Attracting a partner and maintaining one has never been an issue.
I agree with this. Money isn't important, and definitely for LTR there will always be give and take.

To my mind, if a guy has a truckload of money, it means nothing if he wines and dines you. It doesn't actually cost him anything. If he doesn't have that money, just buying me a pretzel from a sidewalk vendor means so much more in terms of what he's willing to share. And that is way way more important than how many material possessions he might have.
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post #131 of 515 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 02:49 PM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Originally Posted by Andy1001 View Post
This should throw the cat amongst the pigeons.
To the guys who expect or insist that their dates pay for themselves or pay every second date can I ask you at what level of attractiveness are you dealing with.Any tens,nines even.I really want to know is there a level at which you think a woman shouldn't expect the man to pay for everything.
Anyone?
Your implication being that the only girls worth having are the ones you have to buy?
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post #132 of 515 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 02:53 PM
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This should throw the cat amongst the pigeons.
To the guys who expect or insist that their dates pay for themselves or pay every second date can I ask you at what level of attractiveness are you dealing with.Any tens,nines even.I really want to know is there a level at which you think a woman shouldn't expect the man to pay for everything.
Anyone?
Your implication being that the only girls worth having are the ones you have to buy?
My impression is that he was implying that guys who don't pay would change their tune if the woman was really hot.

I think some might. But not all.
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post #133 of 515 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 02:59 PM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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It's good to have weeder criteria, no doubt about it. However, the criterion that a man always pays is going to weed out guys who don't fit your model. I make $65k/year, own my house, own my car outright, have great credit, raise my daughter on my own 50% of the time, and have a substantial savings.

I just don't believe your daughter is entitled to a man always paying for her simply because she has a vagina. Especially when she has the ability to pay for herself.
If she can get it, then I guess she is entitled to it.

I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this, music. There is no way that I am going to compromise on my standards for my daughter. I know her worth.

And fortunately, so does she.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #134 of 515 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 03:05 PM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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This should throw the cat amongst the pigeons.
To the guys who expect or insist that their dates pay for themselves or pay every second date can I ask you at what level of attractiveness are you dealing with.Any tens,nines even.I really want to know is there a level at which you think a woman shouldn't expect the man to pay for everything.
Anyone?
there are times when cyberspace and real life do not meet. This one of those occasions. I don't get the impression that of the single women that Ii know, that they only date guys who pay for everything. There is some navigation. indeed, when I was dating between marriages, I heard from women who told me not to expect a man to pay and women who were a little bit jealous that I could find dates who did want to pay.

After looking at my total dating experience over the course of my life, I have tried to identify some of the tricks of the trade, for example

1. Trying to get a woman to pay for a few things because he "forgot to go to the cash machine."

2. A guy who unbundles the activities of the evening as a way to get the women to pay for some of it: go one place for cocktails; another for dinner, another for dessert and so on ...... then try to get the woman to pay for one of more portions of the evening.

I used to try to be sensitive to a guy's needs when it came to money. But as I have said before, my experience is that that money that he saves because I paid is then used to take another woman out.

And I am aware of situations in which the guy pays but supposedly didn't particularly liked the woman anyway. What's up with that?

If I had to be single again, I would never go on a date with a guy without his paying at this point. If I have to pay formyself, I'll go out with my friends ....... and that does not include going out with a guy --that same guy, especially -- "as friends."
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post #135 of 515 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 03:06 PM
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Re: Who should pay on dates?

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Your implication being that the only girls worth having are the ones you have to buy?
By no means.
The point I wanted to try and get across is that extremely attractive people of both sexes are treated differently than mere mortals.You see it everywhere,guys tripping over themselves to hold a door for some gorgeous girl,stopping in traffic to let her cross the road.A really attractive woman gets used to being spoiled by men from a young age and if you ask her out you better know the rules of this game.She may be a kind and generous person or a self entitled ***** but for you to get her attention sexually speaking you need to make her feel special.If she never had to pay for dates before why would she start with you.
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