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post #91 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 09:12 AM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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I allready went for it,I've had housekeepers for years.When you hear the subject being discussed I feel like a cross between a puppy killer and a war criminal.These women are paid well and I have never had a complaint from them.They clean,cook,do my laundry and that's it.One of their husbands owns a landscaping business and he works for me a couple of days a week during the summer and maybe two days a month during winter.If they didn't work for me they would be working for someone else,that's how I look at it.
I have a cousin who works cleaning people's houses. She says most of the people she worked for are/were really nice, and it's way better than working cleaning in a hotel. (She says that she's seen some stuff in hotel rooms that are WAY GROSS.) There are some people who clean everything before she gets there. And there is one [older] lady who doesn't really have anything that needs cleaning... she is lonely, and basically pays my cousin to just come and talk to her while she does whatever little cleaning there is. She has my cousin come in like 4 times a week.

She's worked for the same clients for literally years, and they think of her like family. Last summer, she finally got the nerve to leave a thirty-year abusive marriage. (She's actually not MY cousin; she's married to my Dad's cousin, and my Dad's cousin is a grade-A *******. His parents--her in-laws--had been trying to get her to leave him for years, and they were prepared to do whatever they needed to to protect her and take care of her. We all love her so, so much.) Anyway, it turns out that her clients were kind of instrumental in this--they were all encouraging her to leave him, and one of her clients got her a lawyer, and they're taking care of the lawyer fees, and are checking in on her. She doesn't really have any friends or social circle--her husband made sure of it--so they've committed to being her support network (I guess they all know each other?). It's really kind of amazing.

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Are you suggesting that some people have a thing against hiring housekeepers?
I kind of have a thing against hiring housekeepers. I think it's the expense more than anything. I also don't like the idea of someone/a stranger being in my space. I'm even iffy about housekeeping when I'm staying at a hotel. I'm super private. And also, I feel like I'm a grown-up, I should be able to take care of my own damn space. Maybe, if I had more space and more money, I would go for it.

It's a personal thing. I'm not against hiring housekeepers in general, and if someone has the money to do it, that's their prerogative.

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post #92 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 09:13 AM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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I have heard multiple women from my home town talk about "those women" or "those types of families" that use day care. Always with the underlying thought that they value career and money over their children. It's crazy.
If I had a $1 for every time I heard someone bash SAHM's, I would be retired on the beach and not able to reply to this thread. LOL

IMO, either choice that a married couple makes about SAHP or not is totally up to them. In many cases, I think women feel pressured to NOT be SAHM. And that is wrong. In many cases the financial need is that both parents need to work, I get that. But in many (probably most, actually, as most people in the US have too big a house, eat out too much and waste a pile of $) could get by with one working parent.
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post #93 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 09:22 AM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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I have a cousin who works cleaning people's houses. She says most of the people she worked for are/were really nice, and it's way better than working cleaning in a hotel. (She says that she's seen some stuff in hotel rooms that are WAY GROSS.) There are some people who clean everything before she gets there. And there is one [older] lady who doesn't really have anything that needs cleaning... she is lonely, and basically pays my cousin to just come and talk to her while she does whatever little cleaning there is. She has my cousin come in like 4 times a week.

I've worked in housekeeping, she's right it's downright disgusting. Try walking into a room after a fecal fetish party...

I kind of have a thing against hiring housekeepers. I think it's the expense more than anything. I also don't like the idea of someone/a stranger being in my space. I'm even iffy about housekeeping when I'm staying at a hotel. I'm super private. And also, I feel like I'm a grown-up, I should be able to take care of my own damn space. Maybe, if I had more space and more money, I would go for it.

It's a personal thing. I'm not against hiring housekeepers in general, and if someone has the money to do it, that's their prerogative.

I can definitely understand the independence aspect of not being interested in a helper. And the idea of opening one's house to a stranger. Because the housekeeping culture is so strong here, there's a lot of trust in the profession. Usually children grow up with the same housekeeper for decades and it's likely that when they become adults, their helper is the daughter/relative or close friend of their childhood helper.
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post #94 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 09:27 AM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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You didn't know this? I was raised in a small town that shame women for many things. And it's women doing the shaming, to each other and to themselves. I went to a small Christian college and say it there too, as well as from my family.

Many women feel shame and guilt for hiring a housekeeper. They have it engrained in their head that it's their job and hiring someone to do their job means they aren't good enough. Look it up I'm sure there are articles on it.

Where I was raised... you don't hire housekeeper, and you sure as hell don't bring your kids to day care. Women are such haters on women, as well as the expectation we place on ourselves. Women feel guilt for having a house keeper, asking for help with the baby, bottle feeding etc. it's engrained in our head (at least some small town folk) that we have to do it all ourselves.
This is kind of how it was where I grew up. Or it might have just been my mom and her messed up way of looking at things. She was jealous of people that had more money than we had (the type that might hire a housekeeper!), and so she was very judgmental about them and looked down her nose at them. Reverse snobbery in a way.

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I have heard multiple women from my home town talk about "those women" or "those types of families" that use day care. Always with the underlying thought that they value career and money over their children. It's crazy.
This sort of thing makes me mad. My sister worked full-time while her two oldest were young and in day care because she had to. She would have given anything to be at home with them instead, but it wasn't feasible, financially. they had their third last year, and now that the oldest is in school and her husband's income is more stable (with benefits!), she can finally be a SAHM.

Gossip mongers are miserable people.

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post #95 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 09:47 AM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
It's interesting because I have heard people define SAHM differently. To me it means the mother is not working any job outside the home. I've heard people use the term SAHM to mothers working part time or per diem. Some people temporarily stay home until their child is pre-school age or at an age they feel comfortable going back to work like one year old. To me, that isn't a SAHM.
I would say stop feeding in to the gossipers

I would consider someone who stays at home temporarily until their child is pre school age as a SAHP, when you consider that could easily be 3-4+ years.

Either way though, who cares what label they use? My point earlier, as long as they are doing what they feel is best for their family and marriage (which could mean working part time, full time, being a SAH, etc...), that is what matters most.

My only issue is when one person looks down on another, and I have seen working parents do this to SAHs and vice versa.

Here is an interesting perspective. My Mom worked full time. Financially growing up my parents needed to
both work. She has it in her head that this is just what you need to do (which as I stated above, this is not what is needed for my W and I). Now that my W is a SAHM, she has made snide comments (not so much anymore), asking her things like "When are you going back to work", or asking about things getting done since I guess the assumption is a SAHM has all this free time to just lounge around doing nothing. I think I finally got my W to just brush off these comments. The ironic part of this, now that my Mom is semi retired, she has had a chance to see our kids at school events, and has made comments about how great it is b/c she never got to do stuff like that when I was a kid. So on one hand, she will look down on my W for being a SAHM, but then on the other hand comments about missing thing when she was a Mom b/c she had to work
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post #96 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 09:51 AM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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Originally Posted by Keke24 View Post
Are you suggesting that some people have a thing against hiring housekeepers?
When my gf and her son were preparing to move in to my house there was a massive blowout between her and her mother.Her mothers main argument was my gf would spend all her time keeping my house clean.I told her I had a housekeeper (I have two) and I didn't expect my gf to do any cleaning or laundry.I couldn't believe her reaction,you would think I had killed someone.She started taking about slave labour,penal wages,she accused me of acting like the lord of the Manor House etc.At that stage I paid them seventeen dollars an hour and that is well over the going rate for household staff.Since my gf and her son moved in I raised it to twenty two dollars an hour to allow for the extra work.I trust them both one hundred percent (They are sisters) and know that nothing they see in my home will be gossiped about and I often leave cash lying around and they have never taken a cent.It is all I can do to get them to take home leftover food that otherwise would go to waste.
I probably doesn't needed household staff but I WANT someone to do the day to day running of my house and this system worked fine.I pay more than I could but they know that and are very loyal to me.
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post #97 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 09:58 AM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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Originally Posted by Andy1001 View Post
When my gf and her son were preparing to move in to my house there was a massive blowout between her and her mother.Her mothers main argument was my gf would spend all her time keeping my house clean.I told her I had a housekeeper (I have two) and I didn't expect my gf to do any cleaning or laundry.I couldn't believe her reaction,you would think I had killed someone.She started taking about slave labour,penal wages,she accused me of acting like the lord of the Manor House etc.At that stage I paid them seventeen dollars an hour and that is well over the going rate for household staff.Since my gf and her son moved in I raised it to twenty two dollars an hour to allow for the extra work.I trust them both one hundred percent (They are sisters) and know that nothing they see in my home will be gossiped about and I often leave cash lying around and they have never taken a cent.It is all I can do to get them to take home leftover food that otherwise would go to waste.
I probably doesn't needed household staff but I WANT someone to do the day to day running of my house and this system worked fine.I pay more than I could but they know that and are very loyal to me.
I'm guessing she never stays in hotels?? That's where the real slave labour exists! Where I worked housekeeping staff made minimum wage at $8.50/hour. That meant the housekeepers and housemen were making $4/room! It doesn't vary much across states and countries.

Note to all: if you ever go to a hotel, please tip your housekeeper, just be nice to them or don't bash the room too much.
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post #98 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 10:04 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

Yea women are haters. It's them vs us mentality and what we do is better. Whatever.
I don't care if a women wants to be a SAHM it's their choice. But it's in my nature to kind of squirm a bit, not because I think working mothers are better, or anything negative about them but because how I was raised and me being a feminist I just always think everyone, especially women need to be independent, or at least be able to be independent.
I hate when some women live with their head in the clouds and let the man deal with the finances and not have a clue what's going on. Women if not self sufficient can end up in really bad places. (Of course men can too).

My aunt just lost her husband unexpectedly. She didn't work. Now apparently there is a second mortgage on the house that she didn't know about and all these financial problems and she found herself to be in a really bad place. Not only losing a spouse, but realizing that you have been completely dependent on him for years and you don't know what to do next. She is 65.
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post #99 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 10:17 AM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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I'm guessing she never stays in hotels?? That's where the real slave labour exists! Where I worked housekeeping staff made minimum wage at $8.50/hour. That meant the housekeepers and housemen were making $4/room! It doesn't vary much across states and countries.

Note to all: if you ever go to a hotel, please tip your housekeeper, just be nice to them or don't bash the room too much.
A few years ago I did some work for the mighty Disney company in Florida and they put me up in the Grand Floridian hotel in the Disney compound.At the time my room was around six hundred dollars a night and the staff started off at one dollar and eleven cents an hour.Yes $1.11 an hour.A bottle of Bud in the bar was eight bucks and the price of food was equally expensive.Orlando had some crazy minimum wage structure that let them get away with this.I remember one of the servers telling me that because part of their salary was tips they were paid a very low basic wage.The paradox was because everything was so expensive,people didn't feel inclined to tip heavily so it was the lowest paid who suffered.
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post #100 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 10:46 AM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

We used to do our own housekeeping. We'd spend almost all of every sunday at it - nearly half of our total free time. We finally realized that it made far more sense to hire a service. It costs us much less than we earn per hour, and provides a job for the cleaners. We leave reasonable tips to help them out. Seems like a win for everyone.


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Originally Posted by Andy1001 View Post
I allready went for it,I've had housekeepers for years.When you hear the subject being discussed I feel like a cross between a puppy killer and a war criminal.These women are paid well and I have never had a complaint from them.They clean,cook,do my laundry and that's it.One of their husbands owns a landscaping business and he works for me a couple of days a week during the summer and maybe two days a month during winter.If they didn't work for me they would be working for someone else,that's how I look at it.
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post #101 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 10:50 AM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
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You didn't know this? I was raised in a small town that shame women for many things. And it's women doing the shaming, to each other and to themselves. I went to a small Christian college and say it there too, as well as from my family.

Many women feel shame and guilt for hiring a housekeeper. They have it engrained in their head that it's their job and hiring someone to do their job means they aren't good enough. Look it up I'm sure there are articles on it.

Where I was raised... you don't hire housekeeper, and you sure as hell don't bring your kids to day care. Women are such haters on women, as well as the expectation we place on ourselves. Women feel guilt for having a house keeper, asking for help with the baby, bottle feeding etc. it's ingrained in our head (at least some small town folk) that we have to do it all ourselves.
Some men have this "shaming thing" going on, also. It comes from within, not without, as in your stated instance.

If my wife tells me that she is going to hire a landscaping crew, carpenters, plumbers, fencers, electricians, cabinet installers, floor installers...I go bonkers!
My response is instant. It is a big Red Azz Button on top of my head. Instant fuse blowing.

Why? I can do these things as good as the pros.

Now if it comes to "major" concrete work, bricklaying, fancy glass cutting or replacing the roof, I will defer to contractors...... I have repaired and re-shingled the garage roof, twice.

When my wife brings up this touchy subject, I counter with: "Well!, I am going to hire a cook and a housekeeper, I do not like the way you handle those things".
Rather than get angry, she smiles and says "OK".......Grrr.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #102 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 11:09 AM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

Funny thread. Started off asking about the ideal wife and evolved into a thread about the merits of hiring a housekeeper.
As for the ideal wife? Well, I think we all have our own version of ideal. What might work for me may not work for you. So again the best advice is to just be yourself and you will wind up where you are supposed to be and with the person you are supposed to be. The ideal will be realized
As for housekeepers, groundskeepers etc. My opinion is what a giant waste of money and time. I simply don't understand why so many people live to work rather than work to live. I see so many people chasing the almighty dollar in order to have more and better and then never having the time to enjoy any of it. No thanks, it takes all of about a 1/2 an hour to clean my house. Another hour to do yard work. I throw away more time typing responses on internet forums than it takes to take care of me and whatever messes I make. As far as I am concerned hiring "staff" to maintain your day to day life is just laziness and greed. Such a first world problem.
I take a lot more pride in doing something myself, stepping back and being able to say "I did that", than writing a check to have some one else do it for me.

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post #103 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 11:09 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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Some men have this "shaming thing" going on, also. It comes from within, not without, as in your stated instance.



If my wife tells me that she is going to hire a landscaping crew, carpenters, plumbers, fencers, electricians, cabinet installers, floor installers...I go bonkers!

My response is instant. It is a big Red Azz Button on top of my head. Instant fuse blowing.



Why? I can do these things as good as the pros.



Now if it comes to "major" concrete work, bricklaying, fancy glass cutting or replacing the roof, I will defer to contractors...... I have repaired and re-shingled the garage roof, twice.



When my wife brings up this touchy subject, I counter with: "Well!, I am going to hire a cook and a housekeeper, I do not like the way you handle those things".

Rather than get angry, she smiles and says "OK".......Grrr.


Hahaha
It's not about being able to do it. It's about time/energy/stress saved from doing it and spending that time and energy toward something more important and better for your mental health lol.
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post #104 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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Funny thread. Started off asking about the ideal wife and evolved into a thread about the merits of hiring a housekeeper.

As for the ideal wife? Well, I think we all have our own version of ideal. What might work for me may not work for you. So again the best advice is to just be yourself and you will wind up where you are supposed to be and with the person you are supposed to be. The ideal will be realized

As for housekeepers, groundskeepers etc. My opinion is what a giant waste of money and time. I simply don't understand why so many people live to work rather than work to live. I see so many people chasing the almighty dollar in order to have more and better and then never having the time to enjoy any of it. No thanks, it takes all of about a 1/2 an hour to clean my house. Another hour to do yard work. I throw away more time typing responses on internet forums than it takes to take care of me and whatever messes I make. As far as I am concerned hiring "staff" to maintain your day to day life is just laziness and greed. Such a first world problem.

I take a lot more pride in doing something myself, stepping back and being able to say "I did that", than writing a check to have some one else do it for me.


Interesting view. I'm the opposite I guess. We all have 24hrs in a day. I would pay money to increase that time which is essentially how I view hiring help.
I don't want my husband to spend time doing something he hates that anyone can do, that stresses him out when he can easily pay someone to do it, spend more time with things that make him happy. If he doesn't mind doing these things then it's different. My husband works hard and if our finances allow I will make it so he won't have to shovel our driveway, or mow our lawn or do our gutters or anything else he hates doing.

Also so people love their job and get paid well. Some people like to work not because they have to but because they want to.

I agree that people tend to kill themselves at work to make money to buy things they can't enjoy. But that isn't always the case. Some people like myself would rather have a good lifestyle vs all these materialistic things. And a good lifestyle to me is enjoying my work, hobbies, friends, and family. Not killing myself to keep a good house, yard, blah blah blah. I'd rather have less, do less mundane annoying chores, and have more time doing things I actually love. This is living to me. Not greed.
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post #105 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 11:32 AM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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Interesting view. I'm the opposite I guess. We all have 24hrs in a day. I would pay money to increase that time which is essentially how I view hiring help.
I don't want my husband to spend time doing something he hates that anyone can do, that stresses him out when he can easily pay someone to do it, spend more time with things that make him happy. If he doesn't mind doing these things then it's different. My husband works hard and if our finances allow I will make it so he won't have to shovel our driveway, or mow our lawn or do our gutters or anything else he hates doing.

Also so people love their job and get paid well. Some people like to work not because they have to but because they want to.

I agree that people tend to kill themselves at work to make money to buy things they can't enjoy. But that isn't always the case. Some people like myself would rather have a good lifestyle vs all these materialistic things. And a good lifestyle to me is enjoying my work, hobbies, friends, and family. Not killing myself to keep a good house, yard, blah blah blah. I'd rather have less, do less mundane annoying chores, and have more time doing things I actually love. This is living to me. Not greed.
Having less and doing more of what you love is exactly what I am advocating. So if you don't love yard work, have less yard. Why work 60 hours a week to have a huge yard if you hate yard work? If you are hiring people to do things that you hate doing, then stop having things you hate taking care of. Now that is greed. "Look at me! I have a huge yard with beautiful gardens! I am so special. What? Oh I didn't do any of it, I just pay some one to take care of them, I don't have time. I am too busy!" If something is important to you, you will make the time for it. If it isn't, stop pretending it is and move to a small condo where it isn't a problem anymore

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