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post #121 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 01:56 PM
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Ideal wife has changed?

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post #122 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 01:59 PM
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Ideal wife has changed?

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post #123 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:05 PM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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Originally Posted by naiveonedave View Post
If I had a $1 for every time I heard someone bash SAHM's, I would be retired on the beach and not able to reply to this thread. LOL

IMO, either choice that a married couple makes about SAHP or not is totally up to them. In many cases, I think women feel pressured to NOT be SAHM. And that is wrong. In many cases the financial need is that both parents need to work, I get that. But in many (probably most, actually, as most people in the US have too big a house, eat out too much and waste a pile of $) could get by with one working parent.
I have to disagree with you here, I think that for most people (families), two incomes are a necessity. I was forced to support a SAHM for 10 years and I hated every second of it, the main thing is being pressured to come up with every stinking dollar the family needs. I don't want that responsibility, it should be equally divided between husband and wife. With all this BS about women being equal to men, I don't feel I should be responsible for every dollar. Even when I was unemployed, I was still expected to come up with every dollar...isn't this when a wife should be expected to pitch in and help out!! I think this is one of the main things that killed our marriage. I didn't really see it as a marriage at that point, when I got no help from her when I was unemployed...just a bunch of *****ing that I didn't have a job.

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post #124 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:10 PM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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I have to disagree with you here, I think that for most people (families), two incomes are a necessity. I was forced to support a SAHM for 10 years and I hated every second of it, the main thing is being pressured to come up with every stinking dollar the family needs. I don't want that responsibility, it should be equally divided between husband and wife. With all this BS about women being equal to men, I don't feel I should be responsible for every dollar. Even when I was unemployed, I was still expected to come up with every dollar...isn't this when a wife should be expected to pitch in and help out!! I think this is one of the main things that killed our marriage. I didn't really see it as a marriage at that point, when I got no help from her when I was unemployed...just a bunch of *****ing that I didn't have a job.
agree to disagree. Though when you were out of work, your W should have stepped up. that is how a team works.. your family probably NEEDS a lot less dollars than it spends, probably by 2x. The need to have the newest gadgets and the biggest house/most cars kills the average American financially.
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post #125 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:18 PM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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Originally Posted by naiveonedave View Post
agree to disagree. Though when you were out of work, your W should have stepped up. that is how a team works.. your family probably NEEDS a lot less dollars than it spends, probably by 2x. The need to have the newest gadgets and the biggest house/most cars kills the average American financially.
We don't have the newest gadgets, both the kids and I hate cell phones and we have what I would call a below average house. We do need every dollar we make. Right now I'm trying to figure how much longer I'll have to work before I can retire. The news isn't good, I'll need to work well past 65 just to make ends meet. I think those 10 years my W didn't work really hurt. If she were working, I might have been able to retire at 60.

"I've paid double for every transgression I've ever made and that motel and that boat are little to ask for"
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post #126 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:18 PM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

Ahem, this is Katie's thread. Page 8 is full of spouting off about something not even in the topic.
So to return to the topic.
The ideal wife Has requirements from her Husband, from herSELF, From her family and upbringing, and let's not forget from her Social peers. In order to trim this list down to a not so overwhelming definition, we need to honestly evaluate where all of the pressure is coming from. Then we need to prioritize. Then let some go.

It has been said that men are simple creatures. Their wants are simple and few. For the most part this is true. There is no need for any first world woman to devote all of her time to making the man happy. Sure it is true that given enough time and a willing participant, a man can come up with enough wants to fill your whole day and with study he could probably make the requirements for a simple task so complex that you thought his wife wrote them, but really can he ask for a sandwich that you can't make in 5 minutes (more likely 2)?

Believe what it is your spouse is saying. When my wife tells me she doesn't know what she wants (funny story about that last night) I had better believe it because otherwise I'll be badgering her for something she doesn't have. When your husband says he wants you to be happy, believe it. Just don't believe that he knows what you need to do to be happy, only you know that. Feel free to tell him that having a clean home makes you happy. Feel free to tell him working in your garden makes you happy. he may scratch his head, but soon he will believe you. There is a Caution here. Don't tell him that if he did X Y or Q that that would make you happy, because if he does x Y and Q, and there is still a dirty floor making you unhappy he is going to stop believing you. Besides it's nagging.

Sorry about the disjointed nature of this post. I read page 1 and 8, I'm sure I missed plenty in the middle.
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post #127 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:21 PM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

Ynot,
Let's say M2's heart surgeon spends 30 hours a week in the OR and another 20 doing consults and keeping up with the latest and greatest and cardiovascular surgical techniques. So that's a normal 50 hour professional work week.

And let's say she finds a big yard in a quiet neighborhood to be soothing in comparison to the harsh lights and fast pace of the operating room.

I am happy for her to have that. Means that she comes in to work relaxed and rested and when she is fixing M2's heart she is functioning at peak efficiency. Seems like a win win.

My brother in law has a classic car he rebuilt and maintains. It has no electronics in it. His new car - is full of electronic stuff he can't maintain because it requires specialized equipment. Both vehicles cost about the same. I don't think that his owning a contemporary vehicle makes him greedy - just because he can't maintain it. And the current era car is a lot safer.



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Having less and doing more of what you love is exactly what I am advocating. So if you don't love yard work, have less yard. Why work 60 hours a week to have a huge yard if you hate yard work? If you are hiring people to do things that you hate doing, then stop having things you hate taking care of. Now that is greed. "Look at me! I have a huge yard with beautiful gardens! I am so special. What? Oh I didn't do any of it, I just pay some one to take care of them, I don't have time. I am too busy!" If something is important to you, you will make the time for it. If it isn't, stop pretending it is and move to a small condo where it isn't a problem anymore
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post #128 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:30 PM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
God help me.
Ok um... in 2-3rd world places there are huge HUGE excesses in wealth.
We don't live in a 3rd world country and working hard and making money Doesn't mean your greedy. Saying someone is greedy because they have money and a big yard is offensive. Saying someone is greedy in general is offensive.
Just because you pay someone to take care of your house and yard doesn't mean your lazy. Taking care of your house does not mean your not lazy.
I have to agree with this and I can't help but feel that the opinion expressed by @Ynot is based on culture. There is a culture of housekeeping here that is not reserved for the wealthy.

We were extremely poor and only my parent's lack of disposal income inhibited their ability to hire a helper. Around xmas however we'd get a lady for a day or two. When you have 6 kids and both parents are working, there is very family time. My parents were on their feet from the time they got home from work and my mom in particular really felt guilty for not spending enough time with us. Of course we could see how much work always had to be done so no one but her took it personally. My life as a child revolved around housework. I think we all could have benefited from having more free time to play in the yard and with the neighbours.

How can one deny the benefit of a housekeeper in such instances? Having children with both parents are working, I think a housekeeper would really help ease the burden on parents.
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post #129 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 03:12 PM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

Your mileage may vary. The "ideal wife" depends on the husband, and there are a few variable factors/constants.

Income. Husbands who make more, may be agnostic about their wives working. If the woman wants to stay at home, it's OK, providing the wife has a larger role in taking care of the house/kids. If she wants to work outside the home, that's OK too; in this case, house and kids become shared responsibilities. Husbands who make less money will want their wives to contribute to the combined income, when budget constraints are tight.

Social Network. Husbands with more friends (personal, not mutual) will want more time away from the wife. In this case, it's preferable for wives to have something to occupy themselves (friends, hobbies, career, etc.)

Hobbies. Along the same lines, men with more "outside" hobbies will want their wives to occupy themselves, while they're out doing their thing.

Constant expectations. Husbands expect lot's of sex with the wife (this is mainly about validation and acceptance), emotional support (through words and deeds), occasional adoration or praise (let us have some ego), sharing in chores (as appropriate, given the wife's commitment outside the home).
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post #130 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 04:39 PM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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Originally Posted by She'sStillGotIt View Post
That ain't nuthin' new, Katiecrna. That's been a pet peeve of mine for YEARS.

Women are expected to be Super Woman and do it all - bring in a paycheck, clean the house, cook the meals, do the food shopping and all menu planning, carry and birth the children then be their primary care taker for life, keep the home fires burning and everything running the way it should, and lavish tons of attention on her oh so deprived husband and become a sex kitten for him at night. Most women don't have time to care for themselves (go to the gym, do their nails, enjoy reading a book, etc. etc.) because they're so damned busy catering to everyone else in their lives. And the majority of men think anything THEY do to contribute is 'helping HER' and that she should fall on her knees in gratitude and be sure to thank him and give him a reward for doing it.

You have to love the fools who always use the 'equality' argument when they don't want to pay for dates, yet conveniently FORGET all about 'equality' when it comes to expecting a woman to do the overwhelming majority of the domestic chores and child-rearing instead of doing their EQUAL share. Hypocrites.

I've lost count of how many men whine and complain that they're bored and their sex life sucks and they simply don't understand why their wives - who've worked their damned tails off from 6am and have finally fallen into bed at 10pm EXHAUSTED - aren't eager to cater to their every sexual need.
I can't believe I am going to agree with She'sStillGotIt But I do.

To be fair, you forgot to mention pole dancing classes: this is a must skill to master for a modern wife.
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post #131 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 09:50 PM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

I asked my husband and he answered someone that loves him and who will share and contribute as a partner in life.

The core traits he needs in a spouse is kindness and consideration, being smart and savvy. He agreed these attributes can be found in many people. Fun to be around, sexual connection and attraction, physical touch and intimacy are also important to him. To answer my question of 'Why me?' it comes back to love; being in love and being loved... it's just felt.

He views the daily chores and tasks as habits and routine that can be worked out and adjusted together. It's not a consideration for him like the core traits of a person. He views his main chores as taking out the trash, mowing, chainsaw work, splitting wood etc. He also enjoys cooking. He did list several things he felt I could take on with the yard. Wait, how did that happen?! ha ha.

Music belongs in a place with hearts beating and brains dreaming and people falling in love. - J.Buckley
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post #132 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 10:24 PM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
And now it seems that men want a more independent wife, one that doesn't NEED help, one that has her own life.
My husband does expect interdependence. We both value friendships and our own interests. It expands our own perspectives and life experiences. As well as the experiences we share together.

The considerations we demonstrate are, often admittedly, gender stereotyped. We went to a music gig together this week. While waiting for the band to come on stage, we were in the crowd chatting and laughing. Suddenly his chest thrust slightly forward. I asked if he was okay. He noticed the dude next to me getting too much into my personal space... he was going to give him a nudge... I reassured it wasn't needed. The crowd shuffles naturally. He didn't realize his body language had automatically switched to protectiveness and although it wasn't needed, it gave me a warm-fuzzy feeling. I can't help it. There's other considerations that arouse that feeling too. He's found a solution and taking responsibility, considering my needs in the process.

For him, its' when I've brought a cold drink when he's outside working. Or when I've made a sandwich for him when working in the garage... which was a joke / tip of the hat to Bill Burr, yet hubs agrees with the sentiment of those sorts of considerations, that speak to him in return giving him that lift.

Music belongs in a place with hearts beating and brains dreaming and people falling in love. - J.Buckley
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post #133 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 10:33 PM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

My ideal wife has not changed. I feel grateful she is right here by me.

Now, regarding the wider population of men, I can understand that many would be attracted by a woman that is independent, does not make any demands on him, and is passionately present when he wants her to be. The best person to fulfill that description is probably a male friend. I am not gay, so it is not for me.

I am thankful that the female sex is very different from the male one. Although many men pray every day for females to behave like men, I know it will never work.

The ideal woman may have changed, but the real one is still the same: ready to make demands on you, so you can stop being a selfish ass!

Je suis Charlie, Russian Metrojet, Beirut, Paris, Bamako.
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post #134 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 10:51 PM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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Originally Posted by Ynot View Post
Funny thread. Started off asking about the ideal wife and evolved into a thread about the merits of hiring a housekeeper.
As for the ideal wife? Well, I think we all have our own version of ideal. What might work for me may not work for you. So again the best advice is to just be yourself and you will wind up where you are supposed to be and with the person you are supposed to be. The ideal will be realized
As for housekeepers, groundskeepers etc. My opinion is what a giant waste of money and time. I simply don't understand why so many people live to work rather than work to live. I see so many people chasing the almighty dollar in order to have more and better and then never having the time to enjoy any of it. No thanks, it takes all of about a 1/2 an hour to clean my house. Another hour to do yard work. I throw away more time typing responses on internet forums than it takes to take care of me and whatever messes I make. As far as I am concerned hiring "staff" to maintain your day to day life is just laziness and greed. Such a first world problem.
I take a lot more pride in doing something myself, stepping back and being able to say "I did that", than writing a check to have some one else do it for me.
It is easy to have that opinion when you have probably never lived outside of your own comfort zone and in a country that has all the mod cons, infrastructure, welfare state, etc etc. To also say it is a first world problem is entirely rubbish. You go to India, China, south east asia, you will find more housekeepers, gardeners, maids, drivers, nannies, home nurses that in any first world area. The question is why?
There are a variety of reasons

1. in many families both parents must work or they don't eat, there is no welfare state, public health safety net, NGOs covering for you.
2. Schools start at 7am to 2-3pm, parents are still at work, what do they come home to? A key under the front door mat?
3. People in this part of the world, do not have the kind of labour laws that protect the first world countries, so whether you are in management or on the shop floor, working hours are long, some times people only get home at 9pm or 10pm, who is going to cook and clean? Incidentally unless you are a factory worker there is no overtime either, it is an employers market, you work those hours as that is the expectation.
4. Public transport infrastructure is quite terrible, people can spend anywhere from 2-4 hours commuting every day, they do not have a wife at home keeping things in order. Both leave the house as late as 6.30 am and are only back by 9-10pm, where is the time for gardening, cleaning, etc? For example someone living in Jakarta can take 2-3 hours just to get across the city.
5. Many of the 'support staff' depend heavily on these kind of jobs. In many cases they are part of the family and stay for years, depending for financial and other support
6. For some working in countries like China it is a necessity to have a driver otherwise you will be exhausted and stressed by the time you get to the office as noone follows the laws of the road, in fact people go down the highway the wrong way or around roundabouts the wrong way.

So before you start castigating people using housekeepers etc, try and think of the bigger picture. You cannot take a first world lens and apply it to all and sundry, it is a vary narrow minded thing to do.
Finally if a wife is at home and has lots of kids, if the H can afford it why not get her some help? The H is giving some respite to his wife and providing employment to someone who obviously needs the job.
Finally if it only takes you 1.5 hours to clean and do your yard, either you have a very very small area or you are not doing a very thorough job.

In essense, stop using your view of the world and imposing it on others.
I wonder do you hold a passport?
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post #135 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 10:58 PM
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Re: Ideal wife has changed?

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Originally Posted by inmyprime View Post
I can't believe I am going to agree with She'sStillGotIt But I do.

To be fair, you forgot to mention pole dancing classes: this is a must skill to master for a modern wife.
:i agree: with She'sstill Got it
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