Nice guys finish last, and they should. - Talk About Marriage
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post #1 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
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Nice guys finish last, and they should.

So posting on another topic got me thinking. Though this is a marriage forum this is a topic that us guys should talk about, even if it is to talk about with our sons or young men we know who are struggling. It's something I wish I had known when I was in high school and my early 20's as I was the classic nice guy. Primarily raised by my Mother on a day to day basis. So I thought I would just put down my feelings on this as maybe it will be helpful. OR maybe I just like to see myself type.

So when I say "nice guy" I mean this.

This is really just passive aggression. It's a strategic way to try to minimize risk of rejection. It's also not being honest in your relationship. I think it is also is very unattractive to women who tend to see assertiveness as an attractive quality.

I also believe these are the guys who end up getting married to cheaters and get cheated on in the most brutal fashion. The problem is that through all of this they think all the issues can be solved by being nice or self-sacrificing. Being decent should just be the base line of being a productive human being, it's certainly not a reason to think women will want to date you. Frankly I think lots of women sense this entitlement from these guys and are put off by it. Besides that you don't want your mate to want to be with you just because you are decent, you want her to want you because she finds you attractive, assertive, and good. The women who marry just because the guy is a "nice guy" basically settle and usually end up unhappy, many cheat or just leave (not excusing this behavior).

Besides all that there are times when you shouldn't be "nice", like when your mate is pushing your boundaries. Nope you should push back, decent people respect that. Being "nice" in the hopes of changing a person's treatment of you makes you look weak, because most of the time it is done out of fear. Again it's about minimizing risk. Again it's not being honest about what you are thinking and feeling. I think most women find this kind of passive fear a big turn off, in a sense they look to us as kind of an anchor at least I know my wife does. So acting this way makes them feel like they are on their own. They are naturally attracted to strength.

So what do you do if you are not attractive and assertive. Well first you change your thinking and then you work hard to be those things. There are plenty of books about being assertive. But I think the most important thing is just being honest and speaking your mind. The one thing with that is to not to over compensate because you are trying to overcome fear. I suspect this may be hard at first and you may come of as defensive, but over time this becomes easier. You should do this with every aspect of your life. It really is a better way to live. Also this doesn't mean you should be inflexible being strong also means being strong enough to change if you realize you were wrong. Even apologize if necessary.

Next attractiveness, I always think if you are not in the baseline why not get plastic surgery and get in shape. Being attractive is an important first step to attracting a mate no doubt, but it's also not a static thing. One can change their appearance, lose weight, put on muscle and dress well. In extreme circumstances like say you have a nose that doesn't fit your face you can get that fixed. That cost about $6000 dollars I think, the cost of a gym membership is about $1000 a year and time. Clothing may very. That is a lot but one of the things you need to attract a mate is a good job so if you don't have some sort of career path you should be looking for one. Preferably with some extra spending money you can use to pay for these things. If you do it's worth the money if you want a mate. No pain no gain as they say.

I wonder if there are services that Men can go to to help them dress better and improve their appearance. As it stands now the internet has tons and tons of information for both sexes. If you are struggling in attracting a mate and or dating I would start here.

Learning how to be a better communicator.
How to dress for men.
This one only takes effort and discipline. About 2 years I would say.
How to plan a good date.

Thoughts?

By the way the women who is attracted to the bad boy is just the female version of this type of guy in the sense that she doesn't have a handle on what it takes to have a relationship. She like attractive, and assertive but forgets about the good.

Last edited by sokillme; 06-18-2017 at 11:49 AM.
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post #2 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 01:16 PM
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Re: Nice guys finish last, and they should.

I'll be honest: nothing annoys me or bores me more than all this talk about Mr. Nice Guy and Mr. Bad Boy. It's so trite and so empty.

No matter how hard you try--and you tried pretty hard I'll admit--you are doomed to talk in cliches because that's what Mr. Nice Guy is, a cliche. If a woman is so stupid as to compartmentalize men in either of those two classes then that's her misfortune and she'll be the one to pay for it more than you, my friend.
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post #3 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 10:04 AM
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Re: Nice guys finish last, and they should.

I think it goes a step further and Nice PEOPLE finish last. And not just "nice" from what you posted as being masked passive aggressiveness. Nice as in truly nice.

Selfish *******s finish ahead of the nice ones. They may have moments in their life where it catches up with them briefly. But overall? Nah. Being nice gets you used and tossed aside. That part probably does go along with what you are talking about. Use the nice guy then find the ******* that gets your loins all tingly.

"Masturbate with just a slick hand and thoughts of your wife." --Intheory
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post #4 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 11:33 AM
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Re: Nice guys finish last, and they should.

I think we need to differentiate between "nice" guys, as you have described them, and "good" guys, as what I think men should strive to be.

I try to be a good guy, but I'm not really that nice.
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post #5 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 11:47 AM
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Re: Nice guys finish last, and they should.

finish "what" last? Lunch?
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post #6 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 12:20 PM
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Re: Nice guys finish last, and they should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sokillme View Post
So posting on another topic got me thinking. Though this is a marriage forum this is a topic that us guys should talk about, even if it is to talk about with our sons or young men we know who are struggling. It's something I wish I had known when I was in high school and my early 20's as I was the classic nice guy. Primarily raised by my Mother on a day to day basis. So I thought I would just put down my feelings on this as maybe it will be helpful. OR maybe I just like to see myself type.

So when I say "nice guy" I mean this.



This is really just passive aggression. It's a strategic way to try to minimize risk of rejection. It's also not being honest in your relationship. I think it is also is very unattractive to women who tend to see assertiveness as an attractive quality.

I also believe these are the guys who end up getting married to cheaters and get cheated on in the most brutal fashion. The problem is that through all of this they think all the issues can be solved by being nice or self-sacrificing. Being decent should just be the base line of being a productive human being, it's certainly not a reason to think women will want to date you. Frankly I think lots of women sense this entitlement from these guys and are put off by it. Besides that you don't want your mate to want to be with you just because you are decent, you want her to want you because she finds you attractive, assertive, and good. The women who marry just because the guy is a "nice guy" basically settle and usually end up unhappy, many cheat or just leave (not excusing this behavior).

Besides all that there are times when you shouldn't be "nice", like when your mate is pushing your boundaries. Nope you should push back, decent people respect that. Being "nice" in the hopes of changing a person's treatment of you makes you look weak, because most of the time it is done out of fear. Again it's about minimizing risk. Again it's not being honest about what you are thinking and feeling. I think most women find this kind of passive fear a big turn off, in a sense they look to us as kind of an anchor at least I know my wife does. So acting this way makes them feel like they are on their own. They are naturally attracted to strength.

So what do you do if you are not attractive and assertive. Well first you change your thinking and then you work hard to be those things. There are plenty of books about being assertive. But I think the most important thing is just being honest and speaking your mind. The one thing with that is to not to over compensate because you are trying to overcome fear. I suspect this may be hard at first and you may come of as defensive, but over time this becomes easier. You should do this with every aspect of your life. It really is a better way to live. Also this doesn't mean you should be inflexible being strong also means being strong enough to change if you realize you were wrong. Even apologize if necessary.

Next attractiveness, I always think if you are not in the baseline why not get plastic surgery and get in shape. Being attractive is an important first step to attracting a mate no doubt, but it's also not a static thing. One can change their appearance, lose weight, put on muscle and dress well. In extreme circumstances like say you have a nose that doesn't fit your face you can get that fixed. That cost about $6000 dollars I think, the cost of a gym membership is about $1000 a year and time. Clothing may very. That is a lot but one of the things you need to attract a mate is a good job so if you don't have some sort of career path you should be looking for one. Preferably with some extra spending money you can use to pay for these things. If you do it's worth the money if you want a mate. No pain no gain as they say.

I wonder if there are services that Men can go to to help them dress better and improve their appearance. As it stands now the internet has tons and tons of information for both sexes. If you are struggling in attracting a mate and or dating I would start here.

Learning how to be a better communicator.
How to dress for men.
This one only takes effort and discipline. About 2 years I would say.
How to plan a good date.

Thoughts?

By the way the women who is attracted to the bad boy is just the female version of this type of guy in the sense that she doesn't have a handle on what it takes to have a relationship. She like attractive, and assertive but forgets about the good.
When you answered my post on the other thread you said that women can see through the nice guy facade and see it as passive aggressive and make men feel entitled.This isn't what I was thinking about at all.I was talking about decent guys who would treat anyone well,not just a date, but because they don't have film star looks they get passed over for some handsome loser who has a "bad boy" reputation.Now I'm not taking about guys who resemble Quasimodos uglier brother but normal average men.And these women aren't exactly Rosie Huntington Whitely lookalikes either.
These women later complain that there are no decent guys around but this is when they have realised that there are a lot of younger and hotter girls on the scene.
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post #7 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 01:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Nice guys finish last, and they should.

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Originally Posted by Andy1001 View Post
When you answered my post on the other thread you said that women can see through the nice guy facade and see it as passive aggressive and make men feel entitled.This isn't what I was thinking about at all.I was talking about decent guys who would treat anyone well,not just a date, but because they don't have film star looks they get passed over for some handsome loser who has a "bad boy" reputation.Now I'm not taking about guys who resemble Quasimodos uglier brother but normal average men.And these women aren't exactly Rosie Huntington Whitely lookalikes either.
These women later complain that there are no decent guys around but this is when they have realised that there are a lot of younger and hotter girls on the scene.
This is why I didn't post this answer in that thread. Granted this is a very broad post and I didn't want to come off like I was thinking you were justifying this behavior. I just kept expending on the topic as I wrote but it didn't really even seem to address what you said anymore so I started this thread.

My questions about those guys are they assertive? Do they know how to talk. Do they ask the girls out.

The women you describe are pretty much the female version of the guy I talked about above. They just may be a lost cause, but there are plenty of girls who are just normal and decent. The trick I found was when I met a "nice girl" to not even bother. Just move on. Girls who like the bad boy are a trap.

Last edited by sokillme; 06-19-2017 at 01:45 PM.
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post #8 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 01:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Nice guys finish last, and they should.

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Originally Posted by Middle of Everything View Post
I think it goes a step further and Nice PEOPLE finish last. And not just "nice" from what you posted as being masked passive aggressiveness. Nice as in truly nice.

Selfish *******s finish ahead of the nice ones. They may have moments in their life where it catches up with them briefly. But overall? Nah. Being nice gets you used and tossed aside. That part probably does go along with what you are talking about. Use the nice guy then find the ******* that gets your loins all tingly.
Yeah but I mean we all pretty much figured that out when we were young right? We all eventually figure out the who cheaters never prosper is a bunch of bull a lot of times right? Lots of cheaters do great in life. I mean if you are being a good person for some reward then you are going to be surly disappointed. Life is unjust. The only reason to do good is because it's the right thing to do. For your own personal integrity.

My post was more about being inauthentic and passive aggressive.
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post #9 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 01:41 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Nice guys finish last, and they should.

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Originally Posted by bandit.45 View Post
I think we need to differentiate between "nice" guys, as you have described them, and "good" guys, as what I think men should strive to be.

I try to be a good guy, but I'm not really that nice.
I agree, in my post you notice I do just that. Your last sentence is exactly how I see it as well.
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post #10 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 05:37 PM
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Re: Nice guys finish last, and they should.

The phrases "nice guys finish first (or last)" were invented before the INTERNET PHRASE DISTORTION ENGINE got its hands on the terms. They referred to ..we... guys who are nice. (eg not selfish, try to help others etc).

Now the phrase somehow refers to guys who pretend to be nice as some sort of passive-aggressive plan to manipulation - which has nothing to do with being nice. (pretending to be nice isn't even passive-aggressive, its deceptive).

I don't know if these "nice guys" actually exist, I've never met one. Often they are talked about by people who are selfilsh and are trying to present the manipulative "nice guy" as the only alternative to selfishness.


I would say that altruistic men (the opposite of selfish) often do very well in life.
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post #11 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 05:39 PM
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Re: Nice guys finish last, and they should.

Of course "Nice guys Finish last" we are polite and believe a lady should come first.
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post #12 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 05:59 PM
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Re: Nice guys finish last, and they should.

Do people know "nice guys" by this definition? People who pretend to be nice and actually are using it to be manipulative? In what sorts of situations have you met them?
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post #13 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 06:52 PM
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Re: Nice guys finish last, and they should.

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finish "what" last? Lunch?
I'm pretty sure that OP meant that Nice Guys finish last in bed.

It's well known that Bad Boys suffer from premature ejaculation and thus finish sooner.
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post #14 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-20-2017, 12:12 PM
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Re: Nice guys finish last, and they should.

Oh, that makes sense.
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post #15 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-21-2017, 09:23 AM
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Re: Nice guys finish last, and they should.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Nail View Post
Of course "Nice guys Finish last" we are polite and believe a lady should come first.
I married a very NICE man (he's not a prick, very forgiving , affectionate and kind).. he's always been able to hold out for me... I rarely miss an O... it sure helps !


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