Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy - Talk About Marriage
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post #1 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 03:46 AM Thread Starter
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Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy

I don't get it with this pacifism, when has turning the other cheek ever achieved anything?

Someone takes out your eye you rip out theirs, it's only fair. People must suffer the consequences of their actions otherwise there is no progression, there will always be the aggressor and the victim. Revenge is a natural desire to achieve equilibrium, why fight it?

Hell when it comes to marriage ask anyone in the infidelity section what is the best course of action - is it forgiveness? Pffft!
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post #2 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 04:09 AM
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Re: Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy

I get where you are coming from and I think tough love is always required in cases of infidelity, there have to be consequences too. Forgiveness is not about the aggressor it is about peace for the victim. I love the book by Dr James Dobson "love must be tough.' He states that often the christian advice to turn the other cheek causes havoc.

"It is my belief that the advice traditionally offered to victims of infidelity and other violations of trust has often been unbiblical and destructive. But obviously, not everyone will agree."
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post #3 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 04:26 AM
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Cool Re: Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy

If you are not, or do not profess to be a Christian, or a follower of Christ's teachings, then it is a useless philosophy!

"Forgiveness" is almost universal, at least from a Christian perspective; but "forgetting" about it is almost entirely a human characteristic! How else would we begin to learn from what has egregiously happened to us at the behest of others?

Like God, some Christians have the innate ability to both forgive and forget! Most of us, unfortunately, do not!

"To love another person is to see the face of God!" - Jean Valjean from Les Miserables

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post #4 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 05:44 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy

Aside from religious beliefs, what's the logic of forgiveness?

This whole concept of forgiveness I find alien to me, for me it's one of the 3 things that I strongly believe people have to EARN, along with trust and respect. I use infidelity as it's the perfect example of how EARNED forgiveness and not unconditional forgiveness actually leads to any possible reconciliation for a married couple. The aggressor/cheater must first suffer the consequences of their actions so that they can understand the weight of what they have done.

If not it only encourages serial cheating. Aside from infidelity in all other walks of life this is applicable, disciplining my daughter for instance; if she doesn't face any consequences in her little mind she's keep taking things for granted, that's not just kid nature it's human nature. My ex-wife believes in forgiveness yet she also disciplines our daughter in the same fashion, but why preach unconditional forgiveness when earned forgiveness continues to prove the superior option?

Also any other personal relationship, as the saying goes, "forgive one insult you encourage the commission of many"
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post #5 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 05:59 AM
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Cool Re: Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy

I'm in agreement with your thoughts about cheaters who fly in the face of Gods commandments about fidelity. If they are not Christian, then their sins will likely not be forgiven!

If they are Christian per the New Covenant, then God will forgive and forget. But from the jilted spouses perspective, there is little solace in that other than the perpetrator has been forgiven!

From the ecclesiastical standpoint, we should be happy to see that their sin has been forgiven and to take God at His word; to lay that particular burden down off of our conscience to where we are better able to forgive and then move on!

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post #6 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 07:09 AM
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Re: Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy

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Originally Posted by arbitrator View Post
If you are not, or do not profess to be a Christian, or a follower of Christ's teachings, then it is a useless philosophy!

"Forgiveness" is almost universal, at least from a Christian perspective; but "forgetting" about it is almost entirely a human characteristic! How else would we begin to learn from what has egregiously happened to us at the behest of others?

Like God, some Christians have the innate ability to both forgive and forget! Most of us, unfortunately, do not!
I don't know that anyone really forgets, at least not the big things. But some are able to put what was done in perspective.

My husband says that different people have different capabilities. It takes a lot of strength to be honest, for example. So not everyone may be capable of that. It takes a lot of maturity to be empathetic. Not everyone may be capable of that.

It is important to get an idea of a person's character. If you think a person is a pretty good person overall, it may be worth it to you to accept his or her flaws and work through the issues.

We also cannot forget that no one is without flaws. Whatever we may be upset about in a partner, that partner likely has their gripes about us, too.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #7 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 07:24 AM
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Re: Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy

As I see it, forgiveness is about preferring peace to war. An eye for an eye, as they say, makes the whole world blind. If you are constantly determined to rip out the eyes of anyone who has done you wrong, then you will never know what it is to live at peace. Your revenge will incite another revenge which will make you want revenge ... and on and on it goes.

Personally, I don't want to spend my life hanging on to the wrongs that have been done to me, nor do I care to prolong the drama for the sake of appeasing my hurt feelings. People can be stupid, selfish, and downright mean, but nothing I do is ever going to stop that. Just move on.

That doesn't make me a doormat though. My husband cheats, he's out the door. I might forgive him in that I understand and not hold a grudge. But I won't trust him anymore. Or live with him. Or stay married.
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post #8 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 07:27 AM
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Re: Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy

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We also cannot forget that no one is without flaws. Whatever we may be upset about in a partner, that partner likely has their gripes about us, too.
Yes, this too. Forgiveness is recognizing that we are all too human. It's not like I've been such a saint or haven't also hurt people along the way. But instead of being judged as evil and having people ready to dig my eyes out, I would like to think that I can be forgiving for my stupid mistakes.

And so I also try to extend that courtesy to others.
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post #9 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 07:30 AM
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Re: Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy

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As I see it, forgiveness is about preferring peace to war. An eye for an eye, as they say, makes the whole world blind. If you are constantly determined to rip out the eyes of anyone who has done you wrong, then you will never know what it is to live at peace. Your revenge will incite another revenge which will make you want revenge ... and on and on it goes.

Personally, I don't want to spend my life hanging on to the wrongs that have been done to me, nor do I care to prolong the drama for the sake of appeasing my hurt feelings. People can be stupid, selfish, and downright mean, but nothing I do is ever going to stop that. Just move on.

That doesn't make me a doormat though. My husband cheats, he's out the door. I might forgive him in that I understand and not hold a grudge. But I won't trust him anymore. Or live with him. Or stay married.
I think Dug and I could work through an affair. If he wanted to, of course.

Life is not black and white for most people.

And Love is pretty powerful.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #10 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 08:08 AM
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Re: Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy

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Originally Posted by wild jade View Post
As I see it, forgiveness is about preferring peace to war. An eye for an eye, as they say, makes the whole world blind. If you are constantly determined to rip out the eyes of anyone who has done you wrong, then you will never know what it is to live at peace. Your revenge will incite another revenge which will make you want revenge ... and on and on it goes.
Actually, I've found that revenge served swiftly, decisively, and coldly leads to peace. First, once revenge is served it's much easier to let go and move on. Second, word gets around and people tend to avoid messing with someone they fear will also seek revenge on them should they betray.

Revenge should be harsh enough that it incites more fear than anger. It's not something well done by half measures. The trick is to ruthlessly find and exploit the subjects deepest fears and vulnerabilities. A lot of folks don't have the stomach for it.

Follow the evidence where it leads and question everything.
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post #11 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 08:20 AM
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Re: Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy

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Actually, I've found that revenge served swiftly, decisively, and coldly leads to peace. First, once revenge is served it's much easier to let go and move on. Second, word gets around and people tend to avoid messing with someone they fear will also seek revenge on them should they betray.

Revenge should be harsh enough that it incites more fear than anger. It's not something well done by half measures. The trick is to ruthlessly find and exploit the subjects deepest fears and vulnerabilities. A lot of folks don't have the stomach for it.
Glad to hear that. Because it sounds immoral.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #12 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 08:44 AM
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Re: Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy

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Glad to hear that. Because it sounds immoral.
That's because either you don't have the stomach for it or you've never been grievously wronged.

I wouldn't take revenge over petty bs, but over something that deeply affects me, my marriage, or my family? Have and would again in a heartbeat without losing sleep.

Follow the evidence where it leads and question everything.
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post #13 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 08:49 AM
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Re: Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy

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That's because either you don't have the stomach for it or you've never been grievously wronged.

I wouldn't take revenge over petty bs, but over something that deeply affects me, my marriage, or my family? Have and would again in a heartbeat without losing sleep.
Sorry if that sounded harsh, MJJean.

I just don't think revenge would bring me peace.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #14 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 09:12 AM
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Re: Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy

ayayay

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I don't get it with this pacifism, when has turning the other cheek ever achieved anything?
When has retaliation ever gotten you back what you lost?

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Someone takes out your eye you rip out theirs, it's only fair.
Maybe if someone was just walking down the street and randomly ripped out your eye. Given you know nothing else about the circumstances, how could you say this?

Quote:
People must suffer the consequences of their actions otherwise there is no progression, there will always be the aggressor and the victim. Revenge is a natural desire to achieve equilibrium, why fight it?
This feels like trolling. Why fight revenge? Are you kidding me? I am sure that every instance of revenge that has ever occurs has always been just.

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Hell when it comes to marriage ask anyone in the infidelity section what is the best course of action - is it forgiveness? Pffft!
So, the best course of action is having sex with someone else and then what? Divorce? Like they care that you had sex with someone else if you are going to divorce them anyway.

This entire post is completely rife with inaccuracies and misunderstandings...
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post #15 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 09:15 AM
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Re: Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy

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ayayay



When has retaliation ever gotten you back what you lost?



Maybe if someone was just walking down the street and randomly ripped out your eye. Given you know nothing else about the circumstances, how could you say this?



This feels like trolling. Why fight revenge? Are you kidding me? I am sure that every instance of revenge that has ever occurs has always been just.



So, the best course of action is having sex with someone else and then what? Divorce? Like they care that you had sex with someone else if you are going to divorce them anyway.

This entire post is completely rife with inaccuracies and misunderstandings...
I think it would be helpful if you would elaborate, Herschel. You have brought up thought-provoking points.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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