The Good Wife: Part 5 - Page 2
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:49 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Good Wife: Part 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by morituri View Post
I understand Trenton, but let's remember that it doesn't matter whether two spouses are religous or atheist, if one of them has a full blown affair (body and soul) the other will rightly feel deeply betrayed for having his/her spouse share his/her love and body with another person. The betrayed spouse will feel his/her entitlement to exclusivity to his/her spouse's love and body, violated.
Can't argue with you there. I would feel devastated.
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:14 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Good Wife: Part 5

Lovely thoughts, all around. It would be a far better and happier world if people regularly engaged in reflection. Too many people do not. Mem, had you been a different type of man, your marriage might well not have survived. You have earned your good marriage.

The reality is, when sex becomes a chore (for either spouse), the marriage is on its way to ending. Sex as a chore will leave a person dreading the other's touch. Many people get to that point without realizing how it has happened; others have fought tooth and nail to prevent that. But it takes two engaged adults to make a succesful and fulfilling marriage. When I read posts on various forums (not this site so much), I'm stunned at the sheer ignorance and immaturity of many, many people. Age is no indicator of growth. So I'm not surprised by the rate of divorce. And I think it is quite telling that relatively few people here strike me that way--TAM posters seem to be the thoughtful type that really want something better (usually). Unfortunately, many are matched with those others who I see on hobby or dating sites--"the clueless," as I sometimes think of them--when I'm feeling generous. ;0 I can think of other names for them when I'm not feeling so generous!
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:40 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Good Wife: Part 5

But you are right Trenton, NOBODY is entitled to another person's body.

If we are blessed, the sharing of our bodies represents a gift to one another, a gift which we vow to treat with the utmost love, grattitude and respect.
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:43 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Good Wife: Part 5

Sis,
Way at the bottom of the trough lost in the darkness, she stayed with me and saved me from myself. Gave herself to me, even when she didn't want to. And now the sun back high in the sky, house filled with laughter, bed roiled with passion, I understand what the people of the book wrote was true, is true and always will be true:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.


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Originally Posted by sisters359 View Post
Lovely thoughts, all around. It would be a far better and happier world if people regularly engaged in reflection. Too many people do not. Mem, had you been a different type of man, your marriage might well not have survived. You have earned your good marriage.

The reality is, when sex becomes a chore (for either spouse), the marriage is on its way to ending. Sex as a chore will leave a person dreading the other's touch. Many people get to that point without realizing how it has happened; others have fought tooth and nail to prevent that. But it takes two engaged adults to make a succesful and fulfilling marriage. When I read posts on various forums (not this site so much), I'm stunned at the sheer ignorance and immaturity of many, many people. Age is no indicator of growth. So I'm not surprised by the rate of divorce. And I think it is quite telling that relatively few people here strike me that way--TAM posters seem to be the thoughtful type that really want something better (usually). Unfortunately, many are matched with those others who I see on hobby or dating sites--"the clueless," as I sometimes think of them--when I'm feeling generous. ;0 I can think of other names for them when I'm not feeling so generous!

Last edited by MEM11363; 01-30-2012 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 01-31-2012, 02:14 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Good Wife: Part 5

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I just don't like the idea that it is ok to "shut him down" unless he is doing (insert long list of clever, romantic loving stuff).
The big problem in your statement is that you are saying that a lady should meet the guys needs without the guy having to meet the lady's needs in the relationship. And that men are entitled to sex but women aren't entitled to having there emotional needs met. How could you even begin to think that that is right?
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Old 01-31-2012, 09:11 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Good Wife: Part 5

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The big problem in your statement is that you are saying that a lady should meet the guys needs without the guy having to meet the lady's needs in the relationship. And that men are entitled to sex but women aren't entitled to having there emotional needs met. How could you even begin to think that that is right?
Because he did not say that (and never has). MEM does not need me to defend him, but his point is that if a man is making the effort and generally meeting her basic needs, she should not cut him off from one of his basic need (sex) just because everything is not perfect.
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Old 01-31-2012, 01:08 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Man: I do not think it is right that you withhold sex. I think in a marriage this would be somewhat of an entitlement now and then.

Woman: There are no entitlements in marriage.

Man: I see. Well, I'm worth more than this. I am afraid I will need to dissolve this marriage.

Woman: OK. My lawyer will draw up a plan to get me everything I'm entitled to.
Sad but true

I agree with the OP. If a spouse wants to have a great marriage and want to STAY married, one has to tend to the other..It's very unpopular amongst some women to tend to their husbands, especially when it comes to sex. If a wife has a hard working man who is faithful, a good dad and treats her good, she HAS to let the little things slide (he doesn't do this, he doesn't do that, I wish he was like this or that) NO man is perfect and that's ok, us wives aren't perfect either!!!!!!!
YES, a wife should selflessly seek to sexually fulfill her husband, after all when he married he promised to forsake all others. That's a big promise and a husband then trusts his wife to fulfill him sexually. We shouldn't let our husbands down.
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Old 01-31-2012, 06:06 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by anna garret 01 View Post
Sad but true

I agree with the OP. If a spouse wants to have a great marriage and want to STAY married, one has to tend to the other..It's very unpopular amongst some women to tend to their husbands, especially when it comes to sex. If a wife has a hard working man who is faithful, a good dad and treats her good, she HAS to let the little things slide (he doesn't do this, he doesn't do that, I wish he was like this or that) NO man is perfect and that's ok, us wives aren't perfect either!!!!!!!
YES, a wife should selflessly seek to sexually fulfill her husband, after all when he married he promised to forsake all others. That's a big promise and a husband then trusts his wife to fulfill him sexually. We shouldn't let our husbands down.
You're of one extreme and there is another. Although you're saying exactly what men might like to hear, I think being in the middle is far better for both sexes in the long run.
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:16 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Good Wife: Part 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Love Song View Post
The big problem in your statement is that you are saying that a lady should meet the guys needs without the guy having to meet the lady's needs in the relationship. And that men are entitled to sex but women aren't entitled to having there emotional needs met. How could you even begin to think that that is right?
Forget about men and women, a relationship is between people. Everyone has emotional and sexual needs.
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Old 01-31-2012, 08:38 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Good Wife: Part 5

Anna,
I hope your partner treats you as well as you treat him.

I have read some recent posts that REALLY disturbed me. They both said the same thing:
- I am angry and resent my H because I have to work instead of staying home with my young kids.
- Because of that we almost never have sex

And the response to those posts was pretty sympathetic. This was just incredible to me. BTW - no chip on my shoulder - I was VERY lucky career wise (and I worked hard too) and my W was able to stay home for 18 years.

What amazed me was the TOTAL lack of ownership these two married women took for the situation. Hey - if you feel that strongly about staying home PLAN for it. SAVE your money for a while so you can use the savings to supplement his income. Or take in a few kids for home daycare. Don't create a situation where you HAVE to work and you RESENT him for it and therefore treat him poorly. They knew what these guys made when they said "I DO". This is like the guy who marries an overweight woman and then refuses to be nice to her until she loses weight. WTF?

End of rant....

Quote:
Originally Posted by anna garret 01 View Post
Sad but true

I agree with the OP. If a spouse wants to have a great marriage and want to STAY married, one has to tend to the other..It's very unpopular amongst some women to tend to their husbands, especially when it comes to sex. If a wife has a hard working man who is faithful, a good dad and treats her good, she HAS to let the little things slide (he doesn't do this, he doesn't do that, I wish he was like this or that) NO man is perfect and that's ok, us wives aren't perfect either!!!!!!!
YES, a wife should selflessly seek to sexually fulfill her husband, after all when he married he promised to forsake all others. That's a big promise and a husband then trusts his wife to fulfill him sexually. We shouldn't let our husbands down.
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:50 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Forget about men and women, a relationship is between people. Everyone has emotional and sexual needs.
I agree, this should be about both partners needs being met. I should probably point out that my husband and I don't have this problem. We don't withhold sex from each other neither do we force it on each other. If either of us wants it we know the others hot spots and engage in foreplay.

I don't want to be insensitive to your problem but it just seems really sad that a man would resort to the entitlement speech to have his needs met. It seems counterproductive to me. You may get it that one time but that won't encourage her to want it in the future.

Instead maybe you could try showing her how good it could be for her also? Lots of women enjoy sex much more if it's intimate. Bringing out the entitlement card isn't intimate. That's my 2 cents.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:20 PM   #27 (permalink)
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LS,
We spent 2 - 3 years "in the trough" - out of 22. The rest were good to great sexually. During that "tough" time our issues weren't me being selfish in bed. They weren't me treating her "badly". The main 2 were:
- I stopped exercising and became truly skinny. She hates skinny - always has. I had bad reflux during that time and it impacted my appetite.
- I lost my playfully aggressive edge. And became somewhat passive. Nice passive. But still passive.

Once I got the reflux under control, I ate/lifted my way back to a nice V shape and the behavioral stuff came right along.

While "in" the trough, I cut WAY back on initiating because I knew she was not feeling much desire. We slipped into a 1 per 5 day routine which was hard on her, and hard on me.

I give and gave her props for hanging in there with me. And I believe that situation reversed I would have felt the same sense of "obligation/commitment" to the marriage that she did.



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Originally Posted by Love Song View Post
I agree, this should be about both partners needs being met. I should probably point out that my husband and I don't have this problem. We don't withhold sex from each other neither do we force it on each other. If either of us wants it we know the others hot spots and engage in foreplay.

I don't want to be insensitive to your problem but it just seems really sad that a man would resort to the entitlement speech to have his needs met. It seems counterproductive to me. You may get it that one time but that won't encourage her to want it in the future.

Instead maybe you could try showing her how good it could be for her also? Lots of women enjoy sex much more if it's intimate. Bringing out the entitlement card isn't intimate. That's my 2 cents.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:37 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Mem, you missed my point. A lot of people stay in the trough for a heck of a lot LONGER than 3 years--but the spouse is neither reflective nor willing to grow. Exactly how long does someone live in the trough (and who is to judge?).

Hm. He's a good dad, works hard, and "treats her well." How can he be treating her well if she is feeling that some of HER basic needs aren't being met? Trust me, most women will not give up sex as the first thing--it goes when resentment mounts, and of course that is dependent upon the individual. If a man won't pay attention to other signs of her unhappiness, it will escalate (this is not a planned agenda; it is just the way things unfold). To call it "withholding sex" when someone is no longer attracted to their spouse is just plain misrepresenting things.

I think the situation you mention (about women wanting to be home with young kids) is more problemmatic than it seems. Honestly, I never thought I'd want to be a stay at home mom, but the urge was overwhelming once I had a child. So I can understand why women would be unhappy--but if they are blaming their spouse b/c he "won't let them," well, I don't get that. On either end. If they are blaming him b/c he doesn't earn more--and he's doing the best he can, shame on them. If he is spending $$$ on hobbies, an expensive car and other "toys," etc., knowing she would prefer to be home, that is a different story again. Etc. Usually these situations are a lot more complex.

So, Mem, how long would you stay in the trough? Just curious.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:17 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Sis,
Right there with you on the variables that impact finances and the ability of a mom to stay home.

Ah - the trough - hmm. Well first we have to agree on one very core fact: I put US in the trough. Not on purpose, but still I did it. I mismanaged (through ignorance) my refux issue and that was the domino that caused all the others to fall. So ummm, since it was a problem of my creation, I don't think I would have ever given up on the marriage even if it lasted open ended. My W clearly loved and respected me. Not as much as she did "before and after". But I don't blame her. I didn't respect me as much when I was in that dark place.

As for her part in this. Hell, she was coming to bed with a loving heart, doing the best she could to "over ride" the lack of desire she felt. Usually she could get warmed up - and I have always been a slow paced lover - so maybe that helped. I WAS angry for the first year: My self talk was "Hey, I have a chronic medical condition kicking my butt, and she is disappointed about me being skinny". But that didn't solve anything. And besides, for a guy who had always been so blunt that I didn't want her to "let herself go", I was in a tenuous spot to ask her to let me off the hook. But then I started trying to fix things. I read a lot and learned. And gradually changing my diet fixed the reflux, as the eating issues/and reflux driven depression lifted I revereted to the guy she fell in love with.



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Originally Posted by sisters359 View Post
Mem, you missed my point. A lot of people stay in the trough for a heck of a lot LONGER than 3 years--but the spouse is neither reflective nor willing to grow. Exactly how long does someone live in the trough (and who is to judge?).

Hm. He's a good dad, works hard, and "treats her well." How can he be treating her well if she is feeling that some of HER basic needs aren't being met? Trust me, most women will not give up sex as the first thing--it goes when resentment mounts, and of course that is dependent upon the individual. If a man won't pay attention to other signs of her unhappiness, it will escalate (this is not a planned agenda; it is just the way things unfold). To call it "withholding sex" when someone is no longer attracted to their spouse is just plain misrepresenting things.

I think the situation you mention (about women wanting to be home with young kids) is more problemmatic than it seems. Honestly, I never thought I'd want to be a stay at home mom, but the urge was overwhelming once I had a child. So I can understand why women would be unhappy--but if they are blaming their spouse b/c he "won't let them," well, I don't get that. On either end. If they are blaming him b/c he doesn't earn more--and he's doing the best he can, shame on them. If he is spending $$$ on hobbies, an expensive car and other "toys," etc., knowing she would prefer to be home, that is a different story again. Etc. Usually these situations are a lot more complex.

So, Mem, how long would you stay in the trough? Just curious.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:30 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Good Wife: Part 5

That makes sense--but it still comes down to being able to reflect and change. When one does but the other doesn't, the trough may come to feel like a chasm, or even an abyss. And that's my thesaurus for the day! :0
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