Wives Initiating Sex/Sexual Issues in Marriage

Sawney Beane · 03-04-2012, 03:03 PM

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Originally Posted by Catherine602

No that is plain ignorance and stupidity. Another example of the dysfunctional dynamics in relationships between men and woman in this period of social change.

Just because it's ignorant and stupid doesn't mean people won't continue to do and think it. For a lot of people, ignorance is bliss. Doing otherwise would force them to confront that they have a responsibility to actually DO something.

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I think informed women are realizing that the culprit is the inability to turn off worry. Men are a wonderful source of help relax, forget the cares of the day and find time to bond. It does take knowledge. For men to realize understand what is going on and to be persistent and confident. If the attitude is that spontaneous desire is a prerequisite, the pitfalls of such an approach should be explored.

You seem to pre-assume that this sort of exploration could happen in a neutral way. I think it far more likely to be perceived as an attack.

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I think men should take the leadership role in working with his wife to get her relaxed and aroused.

You can only lead people who are prepared to be led. When I was a recruit in the Army many years ago, roughly half of each intake of recruits failed to complete their training. Of these, about half left for physical reasons (injuries and bad knees mostly), the other half because they didn't have the right attitude. A lot of them could not make themselves give up their autonomy and so follow someone elses' lead. For some, it was that if someone was leading them, they were demonstrating weakness or immaturity. For others they didn't have the faith to take the risk of letting someone else lead them, that unless they took the decisions they weren't being true to themselves. You have to be willing to be led.

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The first agreement should be that, for most women, spontaneous desire is not frequent but desire can be coaxed. The second agreement should be to allow the normal process of coaxing to happen. It just a part of normal relationship dynamics in a busy life that differentially effects men and women.
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You're right, but it doesn't square with the idea of a modern, autonomous, self-reliant person who achieves everything from within themself. What you are saying would be widely interpreted by a lot of women as indicating that their sexuality is not their own. How well do you think this will fly?

Lionelhutz · 03-04-2012, 03:06 PM

Catherine, you make a valid point but I think we may be talking slightly past each other.

You seem to be talking about men making themselves attractive to their spouse. I couldn't agree more.

But when talking about BJs in particular, when I hear a woman say she finds giving a BJ demeaning I think there are two options: there is a problem in the relationship as a whole and she feels the need to fight for respect, or she has issues with sex.

If I think the relationship is good I simply i can't relate to her way of thinking and would conclude that we aren't sexually compatible.

For me the act itself is not as important as it is an indicator of how she thinks about sex.

However, I should note, that I have never asked or even hinted about wanting a BJ and I think it is not merely wrong but self-defeating to pressure a woman to do so. That is where the "bait and switch' problem can arise.

MEM11363 · 03-04-2012, 05:08 PM

SB and Catherine,

Ultimately this stuff usually comes down to commitment because if my partner is committed I can give them a book to read and they can hear from a "specialist author" that:
- They are normal
- They have important choices to make AND
- While bad choices don't necessarily equal divorce, they almost certainly will equal a bad marriage.

If your spouse is not even willing to read a book on a topic that is core to you and that relates to a fracture point in your marriage, than they either:
- don't care about the marriage or
- don't believe their partner has the resolve to leave them even when they are being very selfish/unloving

There is a guy who has a thread going now. For 17 years his wife almost never had sex with him. They discussed separation, and when she realized he had accepted the end of the marriage and was about to leave, suddenly she couldn't keep her hands off him.

You want my guess, he would have gotten the same result at the end of year 1 of the marriage. Sixteen more years of accepting bad behavior got him 16 years more bad behavior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sawney Beane

Just because it's ignorant and stupid doesn't mean people won't continue to do and think it. For a lot of people, ignorance is bliss. Doing otherwise would force them to confront that they have a responsibility to actually DO something.

You seem to pre-assume that this sort of exploration could happen in a neutral way. I think it far more likely to be perceived as an attack.

You can only lead people who are prepared to be led. When I was a recruit in the Army many years ago, roughly half of each intake of recruits failed to complete their training. Of these, about half left for physical reasons (injuries and bad knees mostly), the other half because they didn't have the right attitude. A lot of them could not make themselves give up their autonomy and so follow someone elses' lead. For some, it was that if someone was leading them, they were demonstrating weakness or immaturity. For others they didn't have the faith to take the risk of letting someone else lead them, that unless they took the decisions they weren't being true to themselves. You have to be willing to be led.

You're right, but it doesn't square with the idea of a modern, autonomous, self-reliant person who achieves everything from within themself. What you are saying would be widely interpreted by a lot of women as indicating that their sexuality is not their own. How well do you think this will fly?

Beowulf · 03-04-2012, 05:08 PM

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Originally Posted by deejov

Mr. B,
I agree and disagree.
Oh my gosh I do not agree that a woman should watch porn to get horny so she can have sex with her husband. She wants and needs her husband to turn her on. Gives the impression of...
"I'll just lay here naked. You go look at another naked man on dvd and when you are horny, come climb on top of me and do me. It's your job". Meaning... " I don't care what you need to turn you on. Just do it".

If a husband is not getting sex of any kind and his wife needs to stimulate herself in some way in order to break the downward spiral I don't think he would mind much.

I do really agree that aggression and pursuing might work better.
Why? Because it takes confidence. That's what is sexy. I cannot tell you how UNattractive it is to have a man stand in front of you and say "wanna have sex". Or have him touch your hips and say "wanna". It's a huge shutdown.
I'm not talking about buying flowers and doing dishes. Not at all.

Completely agree but if he has been rejected on many occasions he may not know how to initiate sex. Walking on eggshells is not foreplay.

I'm talking about flirting all day. Kissing her on the neck. If she pushes you away, try another spot. Hugging her from behind while she is doing the dishes. All those things you did when you were dating a girl and trying to get her into bed. You didn't stand 2 feet away and say "I'm horny". You got close, you touched, you kissed, she got turned on, and off you went.

Again, if a man is constantly rejected he may give up because he doesn't know what works. The biggest thing is communication and I think many times that is what is lacking.

Yes, you might get rejected. But try again tomorrow. Ask her when you are kissing her neck if it turns her on. It's all about confidence.

I've never asked for sex and my wife has never refused. If one of us is sick we communicate that long before we go to bed. As for outside the bedroom foreplay...I do that all the time and I watch my wife's reactions. She not only tells me what works but shows me with her body language. But frankly when you are into the other person I'm not sure there is anything that doesn't work.

And here's an important part. Don't do this stuff when kids are hungry, timing is bad, etc.

I did and do. I actually find it enjoyable to be a bit of the rogue and tease her especially when it's not a good time. I just give her my bad boy smile.

It's no different than a woman in her 40's trying to find a new way to get her older husband interested in sex. And it's HER job to do it! To find new ways to arouse him.

If a man is having problems getting interested in sex after 40 it's his responsibility to get it seen to. They might try things as a couple to stimulate things but imo it is definitely not her job to do it.

Beowulf · 03-04-2012, 05:14 PM

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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous

So I ask... why should I downplay who I am ? This floats his boat !

Then it sounds to me that you have both settled on a dynamic that works for you. If he is happy with things and you are happy with things then I say

Halien · 03-04-2012, 06:43 PM

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Originally Posted by MEM11363

YES

I would say my W told me this almost verbatim during year one of our marriage. I accepted it as true and never looked back since it seemed to accurately describe her behavior.

That said I am realizing more and more that a line I picked up from an Elmore Leonard book almost 20 years ago really, really is true.

There is no bright line separating what happens in bed and out of bed.

In the book the "main" characters are this couple who really love each other. He is about to leave to do something dangerous and she says "I'm sorry we didn't have time to make love this morning" and he casually looks over at her and replies "baby, I'm always making love to you".

That's a great line. And when I am feeling that way, I use it because it's true.

Mem,

I also remember a similar line from another book years ago, and its one that my wife and I hang on to. A woman was talking to her adult daughter about her deceased husband, the daughter's father. She embarrassed the daughter when she said that their sex life was always incredible. The daughter, recovering from embarassment, said that she got the impression that they rarely had sex due to his health, and the mom said, "There was never a time where he wasn't making love to me."

I do think that these kinds of discussions in these threads often simplify the reasons behind a woman pulling away from a strong intimate life. I agree that some can be the simple case of a nice guy whose wife just doesn't appreciate his need for physical bonding. The reasons can be also just as much non-sexual as sexual. There can be broken dreams, disillusionment, along with the realization that a woman's husband will see the sexual relationship only in physical terms. She can really wish for the type of sexual relationship that feels continual, almost tantric, and thinks he isn't capable of any more than a series of discrete physical acts.

Tall Average Guy · 03-05-2012, 10:32 AM

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And here's an important part. Don't do this stuff when kids are hungry, timing is bad, etc.

I did and do. I actually find it enjoyable to be a bit of the rogue and tease her especially when it's not a good time. I just give her my bad boy smile.

I find this works very well, provided that I make the move with a clear expectation and understanding that nothing will happen at that time. Happened last Friday. She was in the kitchen preparing dinner and the kids were playing in the next room, though they kept popping in to ask when dinner would ready. I start caressing her and kissing her neck, and she lightly slapped my hand away and told me not now. I ****ed my head and said she could not blame me for trying. She laughed and called me a horny old man with big smile on her face. We both had a big smile on our face when we finally fell asleep that night.

I knew nothing was going to happen right then, and she really did as well. But I was not expecting anything to happen, I just wanted to let her know how attractive I found her.

Beowulf · 03-05-2012, 11:36 AM

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Originally Posted by Tall Average Guy

I find this works very well, provided that I make the move with a clear expectation and understanding that nothing will happen at that time. Happened last Friday. She was in the kitchen preparing dinner and the kids were playing in the next room, though they kept popping in to ask when dinner would ready. I start caressing her and kissing her neck, and she lightly slapped my hand away and told me not now. I ****ed my head and said she could not blame me for trying. She laughed and called me a horny old man with big smile on her face. We both had a big smile on our face when we finally fell asleep that night.

I knew nothing was going to happen right then, and she really did as well. But I was not expecting anything to happen, I just wanted to let her know how attractive I found her.

Exactly, like someone else said foreplay begins outside the bedroom.

mr.miketastic · 03-05-2012, 12:47 PM

You can waste 10 books of matches trying to light her fire, but if she doesn't want to be stoked there's nothing else you can do. It is a 50/50 split. BOTH are effing responsible, so expecting one person to do all the heavy lifting is BS. I would appreciate my SO telling me she doesn't like sex with me WWWAAAAYYYYY more than just acting like a woman shaped hunk of tepid jello. At the very least I could make an informed decision on whether I should stay around or not. I absolutely loathe bait-and-switch and people who do that in a marriage should be shot.

Sawney Beane · 03-05-2012, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEM11363

There is a guy who has a thread going now. For 17 years his wife almost never had sex with him. They discussed separation, and when she realized he had accepted the end of the marriage and was about to leave, suddenly she couldn't keep her hands off him.

You want my guess, he would have gotten the same result at the end of year 1 of the marriage. Sixteen more years of accepting bad behavior got him 16 years more bad behavior.

Mem, I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I've had people work for me who only buckled down to what was needed of them under the threat of being sacked. The threat of losing their job meant they suddenly "got it". Then when most of them left under their own steam later, they all cheerfully admitted they hated the job and only did it because the alternative was worse.

You can't threaten somebody into liking something.

Beowulf · 03-05-2012, 04:52 PM

Pardon me for saying this but "she doesn't like sex" is just bullsh!t. If she is human she likes sex. Maybe there are abuse issues that complicate her enjoyment of sex. Maybe she has resentment that needs to be let go before she can enjoy sex. Maybe she just doesn't like sex with you? I'm sorry but I'll say it again. If you are willing to stay in a relationship that doesn't include sex then you get what you have coming to you. I'm sorry if that is too harsh for anyone but it's how I feel.

Lionelhutz · 03-05-2012, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Pardon me for saying this but "she doesn't like sex" is just bullsh!t. If she is human she likes sex. Maybe there are abuse issues that complicate her enjoyment of sex. Maybe she has resentment that needs to be let go before she can enjoy sex. Maybe she just doesn't like sex with you? I'm sorry but I'll say it again. If you are willing to stay in a relationship that doesn't include sex then you get what you have coming to you. I'm sorry if that is too harsh for anyone but it's how I feel.

It's not harsh, just clearly wrong. There are simply some people who don't like or need sex regardless of their relationship status.

These people can be single, in which case there are certainly no "resentment" issue to work out. Such people aren't likely to masturbate and don't feel they are missing out on anything.

Just to make it more complicated some people did like sex for a period of time and then stopped liking it. Some may be hiding resentment issues, but many simply don't know why they feel the way they do. Some can enjoy sex in the sense of having an orgasm but feel no desire to have one.

Catherine602 · 03-05-2012, 05:47 PM

MEM that's what I meat when I said the evaluation qualities besides a willingness to give during the heady days of the honeymoon period.

That is the reason I think that you need to date at lest two yrs before deciding to commit. By that time you get to see the potential mate in enough different situations to make a decent assessment.

Some men are mesmerized by good sex but it is a constant that sex changes maybe better maybe not as good.

If a man allows himself to develop a bj blind spot, he may be blind to red flags that portend future problems. I still say it is foolish to put that first or even second on ones list not foolish to include it though.

I realize it is not an exact science but it may be more reliable than simply relying on whether she gives during the honeymoon period.

When that wears off, then the force of ones desire to adjust, learn, take a chance and honor commitments takes hold.

If I was judged by my husband on the basis of my willingness to be sexually open before I got married, he would not have married me.

He did say that he saw qualities that he valued - curiosity, I was good to my family despite having a bad childhood, I was compassionate, I loved pleasing him, I was an independent thinker and most of all, I trusted him.

I hope that is all true but he may see me with eyes of love.

norajane · 03-05-2012, 05:52 PM

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Originally Posted by Beowulf

Pardon me for saying this but "she doesn't like sex" is just bullsh!t. If she is human she likes sex. Maybe there are abuse issues that complicate her enjoyment of sex. Maybe she has resentment that needs to be let go before she can enjoy sex. Maybe she just doesn't like sex with you? I'm sorry but I'll say it again. If you are willing to stay in a relationship that doesn't include sex then you get what you have coming to you. I'm sorry if that is too harsh for anyone but it's how I feel.

I have to agree with this, for the most part. I'm surprised this isn't suggested more often in the "lack of sex" threads - maybe the not-wanting-sex spouse is not attracted/doesn't enjoy sex with the spouse that wants sex. Maybe the chemistry that was so hot and bright during the earlier phases of the relationship has dimmed or died, and the not-wanting-sex spouse doesn't know how to re-light it so can't give any real suggestions.

Because, if you think about it, back when the couple was first dating and the sex was hot, was it really the case that all her emotional needs were being met and that they were totally in sync with each other emotionally and intellectually? Or was it that the sex was good and plentiful because both were hot for each other because the relationship was new and they had that "chemistry" that made everything exciting including sex?

What would a husband do if his wife said she just wasn't into him anymore like she used to be, and that's why she doesn't much sex with him? How does a couple "work through" that scenario - they both love each other and respect each other and want to stay together, but she's not hot for him anymore and isn't excited about him like when they were dating so isn't interested in sex with him?

KanDo · 03-05-2012, 05:57 PM

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Originally Posted by lovesherman

I agree with Enchantment's point that because most of the people complaining about sexless marriages here are men, the only advice that can be given is for them to change the dynamic in their relationship. We don't have the wife's point of view, so we cannot give her any advice. You can only change yourself.

The other point that I would make is that many women do not understand the male sex drive. They do not realize that it is not only physical, but an emotional connection that the man makes with his wife during sex. It is up to the husband to communicate this fact to his wife.

I disagree with the idea the only advice that can be given is change the dynamic of the relationship. They can get out of the relationship. I can not believe the men who have stayed in sexless marriages for years!. Grow a few and kick the poor excuse for a woman to the curb! Sex is a part of the marriage contract. If the relationship is so broken that you aren't having sex. GET OUT! There are plenty of wonderful women seeking loving relationships with men who stand up for themselves and want a committed relationship-- in all it's dimensions

Just my humble opinion