I'm in a relationship that is quickly sinking and I'm worried about how much longer I can keep things together. I'm so thankful for forums like this one as I can't imagine what I'd do if I had no where to turn for advice.
I'm newlywed and my wife is from another developed country and from an affluent family. She's very well educated and is as smart as they come. However, her family is pretty dysfunctional as her dad is a workaholic and her mother is probably a BPD'er - prone to bouts of rage, stabbing at doors, very difficult to deal with. My wife has said that she remembers their fights since she was 4 and has seen them fight violently at least 20+ times. Everyone walks on egg shells to avoid making her mother angry.
I've looked at symptoms of BPD online and while I'm not looking to make any sort of diagnosis, I do want to know what other people think.
Why I think she may have it:
She gets angry very quickly (or inappropriately as many lists say)
When she is angry, it takes a long time to subside. She holds the anger inside and whenever she revists the episode that made her angry, it's almost as if it just happened to her again.
Her traumatic childhood
Afraid of abandonment
Very insecure (she says this herself)
Very prone to shopping binges (impulsivity). She says buying things and material things make her feel secure.
She is on Wellbutrin, but not taking it daily. Doctors in another country prescribed them to her
She says she would commit suicide if she were brave enough
She says that she has imagined stabbing me with a knife
She is ocd about keeping a clean apartment
She can get physically violent
What makes me unsure:
We are both under intense pressure. I'm in grad school, and she's dealing with the stresses of moving to a completely new country and a garbage language program. She's left everything she's ever known, was a city girl, and moved to be with me in this really boring college town. She misses the shopping, the dining, her friends etc. It makes me think that maybe when we go to a bigger city, things will get better
I've done plenty of misdeeds in the past that make her hate me. I constantly contacted an ex-gf against her request to not do so. I have not done this for about 4-5 months now and will not ever do so again. However, she says she remembers this and hates me for it greatly. I've also told a couple of my best friends about what's happened in our relationship and complained to them about what she did to me. She found out about this by reading through my emails and chat logs. I called her the b word in some of those transcripts and said I hated her in them.
She doesn't idealize me one second and then think I'm evil the next. She just thinks I'm evil
Basically, I'm not sure if this is BPD or if I've just hurt her so much in the past that she hates me now and is going crazy. For the past few months, I've become progressively more and more "well-behaved" out of fear. Nowadays, I keep my mouth shut about everything and just let her act out. I don't do the sarcastic forced nice, but really do my best to keep calm and nice.
Please help...I really am scared/hurt/weak all the time...
No one here can diagnose your wife. From what you have said, she should see a psychiatrist. Let them figure it out. Maybe you should tell her that dealing with her is so hard that you need her to do this so you can stay with her.
Don’t try to label her with anything. Even if she has BPD, or any other disorder, she is responsible for her behavior. She is responsible for knowing what sets her off and having a plan to prevent herself form going off. Too many people seem to use mental disorders as excuses.
Taking meds like Wellbutrin on and off can cause some serious problems.
What it sounds like to me is that she learned to be who she is by watching her parents. She grew up seeing a lot of violence and anger. So now she’s doing the same thing. See if you can get her help.
I've looked at symptoms of BPD online and while I'm not looking to make any sort of diagnosis, I do want to know what other people think.
JNYU, welcome to the TAM forum. I agree that the behaviors you describe -- temper tantrums, verbal and physical abuse, lack of impulse control, suicidal ideation, low self esteem, and fear of abandonment -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has.
Of course, only a professional can determine whether her BPD traits are so severe as to meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having the full-blown disorder. Yet, even when they fall well below that level, such traits can make your life miserable and undermine a marriage.
Only a professional, then, can determine whether your W "has BPD," i.e., has the full-blown disorder. You can truthfully say, however, that she "has BPD traits." Everybody on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits. Splitting, for example, is something you do many times every day -- every time you daydream or are suddenly startled.
Further, it also is okay for you to say she "has strong BPD traits" if that is what you are seeing and the symptoms are persistent over time. Significantly, there is nothing subtle or nuanced about traits such as verbal abuse, physical abuse, and temper tantrums.
Before you graduated high school, IAMCIV, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD.
Similarly, you are able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur. This is why it is okay to say she "has strong BPD traits" if that is what you have been seeing for years. As I caution below, however, you are not seeing a strong pattern of BPD traits if they are not persistent over time. Hence, if she has been behaving this way only over the past 5 months, you are not describing the type of emotional damage that is associated with strong BPD traits.
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What makes me unsure: We are both under intense pressure.... I've done plenty of misdeeds in the past that make her hate me.
If your W actually has strong persistent BPD traits, the damage to her emotional core occurred in early childhood and the symptoms (i.e., traits) likely started in the mid-teens -- when she was first trying to establish LTRs outside the home. This means that strong BPD traits are persistent and do not disappear for years at a time. The only time they vanish typically is during the honeymoon period, at which time a BPDer's infatuation holds her twin fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay.
At issue, then, is whether you saw red flags of BPD traits occurring before you hurt your W by contacting your ex. How long have you been married and how long was the dating before that? Has the emotional instability and outpouring of anger been limited only to the past 5 months? What was her relationships like with previous BFs (does she badmouth them)?
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She doesn't idealize me one second and then think I'm evil the next. She just thinks I'm evil. Basically, I'm not sure if this is BPD or if I've just hurt her so much in the past that she hates me now and is going crazy.
Yes, that is unclear. If she is a BPDer, she may have split you black permanently, which would explain why you don't see her flipping from one extreme to the other. If she is not a BPDer, her behavior may be explained by her anger over your treatment of her. Significantly, BPDers are emotionally unstable. Hence, if you are not seeing emotional instability, you are not seeing a persistent problem with BPD traits.
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Please help...I really am scared/hurt/weak all the time.
I suggest that you see a clinical psychologist -- on your own for a visit or two -- to obtain a candid professional opinion as to what it is you likely are dealing with. And, while you are waiting for an appointment, I suggest you read more about BPD traits so you know what red flags to look for. You will find excellent online resources available at BPDfamily.com, the largest BPD forum that is targeted only to "Nons" like us.
An easy place to start reading, here on TAM, is my post describing these traits in Maybe's thread at My list of hell!. Finally, if you have time to answer the questions I pose above, I would be glad to discuss your responses with you. Take care, JNYU.
No one here can diagnose your wife. From what you have said, she should see a psychiatrist. Let them figure it out.... Don’t try to label her with anything.
EleGirl, although you are one of my favorite members, and although I usually agree with all your sage advice on TAM, I strongly disagree with you on this statement. IME, when a spouse has been verbally and physically abused for 5 months by a W who hates him, it would be a disastrous course of action for him to simply send his W to a therapist and "let them figure it out."
The problem is that, if the W is a BPDer, there is very little chance that the therapist will tell the W, much less tell her H. It is well known that therapists are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of her disorder. The result is that millions of spouses like me end up staying in doomed toxic relationships for years -- because the therapists are ethically bound to protect their sick clients (instead of giving the spouses the information needed to set them free).
I learned that the hard way -- after spending a small fortune taking my exW to weekly visits with six different psychologists over a 15 year period. None of them would tell me the name of her disorder. Indeed, the last psychologist -- who treated my exW for five years -- always told me "I don't believe labels are useful" whenever I would ask what was wrong with my exW. At the end, when I was very insistent, that psych would say only that she had "a thought disorder" (which, of course, is what BPD is).
As I've discussed in other threads, there are many reasons that psychologists withhold that information. One is that, because a BPDer is always seeking a sense of who she really is, giving her a new identity -- as "a BPDer" -- can easily make her behavior worse. That is, she may start exhibiting 8 or 9 of the BPD traits instead of only 5.
Another reason is that insurance companies usually refuse to cover BPD treatments but they will cover the treatments if the diagnosis is listed instead as one of the associated side effects, e.g., depression, anxiety, or PTSD. A third reason is that the therapist knows a high functioning BPDer almost certainly will quit therapy on being given that dreaded diagnosis.
For these reasons, I believe it is very important that JNYU find out exactly what "label" applies to his W -- to ensure that he is not waiting for 15 years (as I did) for an improvement in her behavior that is extremely unlikely to occur.
One way of obtaining that label is to see a clinical psychologist -- on his own -- and hope that the psych will give him a professional opinion (without seeing the W). The psych may be willing to do that -- but he may not be willing. This is why I am encouraging JNYU -- as a back up -- to keep reading about BPD traits, so he is able to spot the red flags when they occur.
EleGirl, although you are one of my favorite members, and although I usually agree with all your sage advice on TAM, I strongly disagree with you on this statement. IME, when a spouse has been verbally and physically abused for 5 months by a W who hates him, it would be a disastrous course of action for him to simply send his W to a therapist and "let them figure it out."
I must have not stated my postion well enough. I agree with you on what you have said.
My reason for telling him to not try to diagnose and put a label on her behavior is that her behavior is abusive to him. He needs to take care of himself. That probably means leaving her.
If she is going to get any help it's not going to be her husband giving it.
I have a few questions although I get that you have another thread I figured it would be easier just to ask you directly, pardon me in advance if it's something you've stated somewhere else.
Newlyweds. How long have you been married?
Stress of new move to foreign country with different language. How long has it been since you've moved?
You admit to treating her poorly and contacting past girlfriends. You said it's been 4-5 months since you've done so. Is the reason the move or is the reason you are faithful and dedicated to the relationship with your new wife?
Does her behavior differ from when you two were dating? If so, does it coincide with the move? Did it start after you contacted your ex?
I'm of the personal opinion that she's most likely having difficulty adapting and feels forced to fit in with your life and your future while she does not trust you and so she resents and dislikes you deeply.
Is she very honest by nature? Some of the things you say she said could be her blunt way of trying to get rid of all the negativity she feels in your relationship as well as in her new life in the college town you're staying in.
Marriage alone is a huge adjustment. Marriage to a man you don't feel loves you and you are unable to trust really stinks. Moving to a new country with a language barrier and having to learn new cultures, behaviors, etc. with a man you can't trust to be your guide sucks super squared big time.
The diagnosis bit is pointless. She's crying out for support and guidance from you...in my humble opinion. She needs to find a space where she feels comfortable, safe and can do her own thing.
Uptown - thank you so much for your help. I noticed that you have been of great help to a lot of people on this forum regarding BPD and I just wanted to let you know how much I cherish the fact that there is someone out there willing to share his experiences and spend his time helping other out.
To answer your questions:
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At issue, then, is whether you saw red flags of BPD traits occurring before you hurt your W by contacting your ex. How long have you been married and how long was the dating before that? Has the emotional instability and outpouring of anger been limited only to the past 5 months? What was her relationships like with previous BFs (does she badmouth them)?
To keep things clear, we have been together for about 2.5 years now. We were together in the foreign country from Nov 2009-Jun 2010, long distance from June 2010-June 2011, married June 2011 - August 2011, then moved here to the states August 2011- Now.
From the very beginning our relationship had always been rocky. This is due to the fact that I had contact with my ex since the very beginning but for some reason or another, we were willing to stay with each other (even though we had broken up 2-3 times over the span of 7 months while in the other country). I figured that I always gave her a reason to be angry (contacting my ex or some other stupid stuff). I was very, very immature when I met her and did a lot of irresponsible things that drove her nuts (not being responsible about my visitors visa, etc.) So because of that, I had always blamed myself for her anger, which is something I still think may be reasonable.
Long distance of course, is mostly a good experience. You don't have to see the ugly side of the other person as the communication is generally limited to an hour or two, and you're generally happy to see one another.
However, I do distinctly remember that when she would come to visit me after every 3-4 months, we'd have bad fights. However, given that her stays were between 2-4 weeks, they were tolerable and soon forgotten.
A big red flag was when we got married this past summer in the foreign country. We started having really bad fights leading up to the engagement banquet (equivalent to marriage in the foreign country). However, I just attributed it to the fact that she was under intense pressure from organizing the engagement banquet (350 guests) and obviously I had a ton of social pressure to see this through.
After the engagement banquet was when we moved to the states and hell promptly started.
In regards to ex-bfs, she only bad mouthed one and he really was a complete jerk she was with to rebel against her parents. She's had 7 other bfs which I thought was a bit much, but not so much that I thought abnormal (also, she didn't have one night stands or short term flings or anything like that; she wouldn't lie about that either). She broke up with a couple because her parents disapproved, a couple because of long distance, one because he said she had too much of a princess attitude, and one just completely up and left her one day (they were living together).
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I suggest that you see a clinical psychologist -- on your own for a visit or two -- to obtain a candid professional opinion as to what it is you likely are dealing with.
We are both seeing school counselors. Thank god she was willing to see one...at first she said it was a huge embarrassment and wouldn't do it. I think once she saw that I fully embraced it, she was willing to start going. My counselor has been helpful, although I don't see him as much due to school being so busy.
I'm going to do some more observing and thinking over the next few weeks. When we do have our calm periods (which are certainly manufactured by my silence and continual calming her down), things are tolerable and sometimes even sort of happy. However, it's just so hard for me to imagine living a life with someone who absolutely refuses to let others voice their wants or opinions if they conflict with her wants and opinions. It feels like I'm holding a porcupine all the time.
2 months officially, 9 months (since July) since the ceremony in a different country
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Stress of new move to foreign country with different language. How long has it been since you've moved?
7 months (since September)
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You admit to treating her poorly and contacting past girlfriends. You said it's been 4-5 months since you've done so. Is the reason the move or is the reason you are faithful and dedicated to the relationship with your new wife?
It was a combination of things. I think contact with my ex just died off naturally since she lives in Europe and we are both busy. My counselor also told me I should stop temporarily so I listened to him. Another reason is that after getting caught by my wife, she makes sure I suffer for it (and rightfully so). A big part of why I may have continued contact with my ex is that I felt like my wife was being unreasonable. My wife wouldn't let me say goodbye to my ex via a last contact email/message so I felt like I couldn't get closure. I thought that was really unfair and was upset about it. There was another girl (who was flirty) who I didn't even date whom my wife hated and made me cut off contact with.
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Does her behavior differ from when you two were dating? If so, does it coincide with the move? Did it start after you contacted your ex?
Hopefully my response to uptown above address this question
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I'm of the personal opinion that she's most likely having difficulty adapting and feels forced to fit in with your life and your future while she does not trust you and so she resents and dislikes you deeply.
Is she very honest by nature? Some of the things you say she said could be her blunt way of trying to get rid of all the negativity she feels in your relationship as well as in her new life in the college town you're staying in.
Marriage alone is a huge adjustment. Marriage to a man you don't feel loves you and you are unable to trust really stinks. Moving to a new country with a language barrier and having to learn new cultures, behaviors, etc. with a man you can't trust to be your guide sucks super squared big time.
I think you're RIGHT on the mark with this. This is turning out to be one of my biggest regrets. When I married, it was more of a practical thing for both of us. Yes I knew I wasn't head over heels in love with her, but I believed that love is something that is built over time. At the time of marriage, I did struggle with marrying someone I wasn't completely physically attracted to, but I also thought that I was just being superficial. I have an ex who I thought was absolutely gorgeous and whom I worshiped (although others thought she was ok haha), but it was hard for me to put my foot down with her. One look from her and I just wanted to give her the world. Unfortunately, she took advantage of that and I definitely learned my lesson. My wife is more plain looking in our culture (although Americans here do say she's beautiful so go figure), but she has high moral fiber and that is something I really cherish about her. However, her anger and outbursts has just been so overwhelming over the last few months that she could be the most attractive woman in the world and I still wouldn't be willing to be with her. I don't know if I'm just being dramatic and emotional (which I try very hard not to be of course), but I do feel like I'm getting damaged psychologically. I do things now that I never would have done before. For example, without any thinking, I called a good friend of mine at 1am (he was pretty ticked off) whereas I would have NEVER done that sort of thing in the past. I also feel like my train of thought is much more scattered than in the past. At this very moment, I feel like I'm doing a very poor job of being clear to you guys in my responses. I try very actively to keep my thoughts cohesive, but I have the nagging feeling that sometimes I ramble and am not cohesive. I feel like I'm losing my grip on logic and cohesion, but then I just tell myself I'm being dramatic and that it's not happening.
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The diagnosis bit is pointless. She's crying out for support and guidance from you...in my humble opinion. She needs to find a space where she feels comfortable, safe and can do her own thing.
I think this is the problem. It's so hard for me to be GENUINELY nice and loving to her when we're constantly hurting each other. Of course, one of us has to break the cycle, so I resolved to at least stop being mean and start forcing smiles and being kind to her. This is the best I can do though. However, I still get so upset that while she's in the bathroom I'll do childish things like give her the middle finger and mouth the f word at her (obv she can't see it because the door is shut). It's like I can't control myself sometimes and this is what worries me. However, it's infrequent enough that I'm not panicked about it at the moment.
Right at this very moment, things are ok because I've managed to tip toe around her emotionally. I have a short term memory and after terrible fights, I'd be completely fine and happy the next day. Problem is she would wake up angry and remind me of it all over again. Recently, I've been determined to remember our fights and how she really can be. I believe that a characteristic of a BPD'er is that they go from being normal to really angry in a manner of seconds. So, while things are OK now, I am now aware that they can, at any second, turn into complete hell, misery and suffering. Strange thing is, it feels so distant to me because of my short term memory...which makes me think that I can do this...but I think that's dangerous because that means I'd allow this to be my life...and I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to let this be his life.
It sounds to me like you married for the wrong reasons. And one of them most definitely wasn’t love, which would have been the right reason. I can’t imagine what marriage would be like without love in it, some sort of living hell I would have thought.
So why did you marry? If it was for money and/or if it was an arranged marriage then I think that’s going to cost you dearly.
*** This reply is a bit off-topic to the original question and is more useful as background information ***
My wife does have some great qualities that I love about her. I love that she's of high moral fiber - she's never lied to me, and she follows rules to a tee no matter how much easier it is to skirt them. This I admire her a lot for. She's also very intelligent - she tested into the top .01% in her country on the national college exam. This is also something I value. She's also very hard working and will not quit something simply because it's too hard or she's lazy. These are qualities I still do love and admire her for. She's also feminine enough that that isn't a problem for me. Sex for us was also frequent and great in the beginning as it is for most people, but yes it died off as it does for most people.
Aside from these things, yes her family's prominence and wealth was a factor, but it wasn't the only factor (my family background is similar so it wasn't this huge deal). Being financially secure was certainly important to me. So many couples break up and divorce over finances (and I don't blame them; I think economically this world is unfair and ridiculous), that I wanted to make sure that it wouldn't be a problem for me.
Bottom line is I really believed that love was going to be something that we worked on and built together. No she isn't exactly what I like physically in a woman so I obviously don't get that butterflies feeling, but I had healthy respect and admiration for her. Enough so that I thought we could build love out of sharing our lives together.
It sucks because I was trying to do the right thing. I was trying to marry someone because of qualities they had. I hate that I'll see a beautiful girl and want to treat her better simply because she's attractive. I've been trying to change that about myself and yes, I do believe it can be changed. I know a lot of people will say guys are just more visual and we're hardwired to be more caring to attractive women, but I think that's not the whole story (ie, I think the emphasis on attraction depends on the society you're raised in). In the country my family is originally from, there are a lot of high earning, high quality men who prefer marrying women who are of higher intelligence, moral fiber, and more plain looking. I've been trying to change myself because logically I know the benefits of the latter are much greater. It's been so d**n hard to shake that feeling though.
***
Anyway, the above is all moot when I'm faced with thinking about living with someone who I can't share my real feelings with and have to walk on eggshells around. If you aren't someone who has been in this situation, you really have no idea how terrifying, difficult, and miserable it can be living with someone with anger problems.
So her anger is out of control but understandable. Her strong sense of morality and following the rules speaks to her desire for order and control. I'm sure the current situation is making her feel horrible.
It bothers me that you married her but were not in love with her. Were you honest with her and did you tell her you weren't that attracted to her?
She is smart and attractive. You need to help her find a job or life path that will excite her and allow her to use her intelligence. She's obviously capable of doing some great things.
If you want the arguments to end and for her to value you, begin to value her. It's obvious that you admire her but do not value her.
5Likes
Please help - does she have BPD? 
