CandieGirl

This is like a deja vu for me! My husband (2x) expected me to have no problem with him going out for supper with a former colleague (female, single, attractive). He half-heartedly invited me along, knowing full well that I'd say no. What he didn't count on, was the 'no' being NO to the whole outing, not just the part about me tagging along. Told him it just all sounded too much like a date. 'So come with us', he said. Um...NO. Was H disappointed? Yes, he sure was. At least I won't be back here in 6 months on the CWI board, devastated, broken, wishing I'd been firmer about my boundaries. This woman was (is) trying to step into my marriage...into a spot that only I should be occupying. She is infringing on MY boundaries, and my husband has been made aware of how it makes me feel.

SkyIsBlue

First and foremost, I do appreciate all of you taking the time to give me your input and share your personal experiences.

But I have to ask...do you guys actually read a lot of what is posted? I came here, and many of you suggested simply setting a boundary. I did that--I made it very clear what I found acceptable and what I didn't. She pushed back a little, but relented and said she would not meet him again without me. What part of that is disrespectful to me?

I haven't tip-toed around any issues--I've said straight out how I feel and what I will accept.

I realize so many of you simply think that she should abandon this friendship altogether. That seems to be the drum beat around here. I've explained why I will not give that ultimatum at this time. Why does this mean I have no balls?

Again, I'm keeping my eyes wide open on this. If I see this escalate, or if I see other red flags, I will take more action.

COguy

I'm just more frustrated that you're so blind to recognize this guy is a threat. Even in your defense of your positions you display that your wife has interest in this guy. So yes you can "be on alert" and act more and more reactively every day they bond more. Or you can cut it off now and tell her to stop talking to this dude privately.

I won't give you any more advice. Because you're either going to see it, or not. And if you can't see it, no amount of advice is going to help you. I can just tell you I've been there, and I've seen plenty of others go through it here on TAM. Your story is the beginning of many "nice guy" cheating stories. Sounds like the beginning of mine...

Halien

When you mentioned her previous mini-EA, along with her general reluctance to respect your boundaries. it is really more of a case of those reading your thread realizing that you may be at a much higher risk than what it seemed before. Its not like suggesting that you didn't respond adequately. Problem is, with your approach, you'll only find out if she has crossed the lines after it happens.... again.

Given this previous EA, she should be feeling the burden of wanting to secure her marriage to you, not securing her independence from you. It feels like you could be fighting a very risky threat, here. Especially since you haven't given any background about her remorse in crossing the line already.

Entropy3000

Where you set the boundary was a big part of your problem. The boundary itself is very unclear. Having a poor boundary provides a false sense of security. Perhaps you should read up on boundary setting.

Unfortunately this is going to have to get a lot worse for you to get that sense of urgency. That sense of violation. She indeed should cut this guiy out of her life.

BUT, since you are not convinced she is not getting the right vibe from you. That you mean it. That she is worth the effort.

Trust me when I say there have been guys on this board that could walk in with their sweet wife riding the OM and they would want more proof.

At some point I believe in Darwinism.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

eowyn

I would have advised otherwise, however the mini-EA your wife had previously certainly raises a red-flag in my mind and changes the overall perspective of this situation. How much do you trust her honesty and integrity? This is probably not a situation where you need to defend your hen from another fox, but rather a situation where you need to see what your hen is upto.

Have you met this other guy? What is his relationship status? Do you know what topics they chat about? Do they have any common friends?

Entropy3000

Honesty and integrity are wonderful. However, people with honesty and integrity with poor boundaries become involved in EAs all of the time. They are less likely to go into the bond intending to be unfaithful but it is chemical and effects their behavior none-the-less. They bond and fall in love. They obtain a dopamine rush. They miss the other person when not near them. They will fight against thier own spouse to be with the affair partner. This is not conjecture. It is actual science. People with honesty and integrity who play with addictive drugs are not to be trusted.

Consider integrity and what it really means. I suggest that true integrity requires boundaries. That honesty includes transparency. One would hope that integrity and honsety will help a person to love and respect thier mate. What can happen however is that the definition of that "primary" mate can actually change to the affair partner. In other words they love but are not in love with their "primary" mate any longer. They receive the in love feelings from another person. So this becomes a dilemma that must be reconsiled. They become bonded to another and loyal to that other person against their own spouse. They feel confused. Then history re-writing to justify this behavior.

A person of true integrity will avoid putting themselves in harms way altogether. A person of integrity will not go against the wishes of thier mate in these areas. They will not take risks with thier marriage. So to say trust me I have integrity is an oxymoron. A person with integrity will say, trust me I have integrity and therefore I will not put myself in the gray areas. I have integrity so I will honor the boundaries of our marriage. Those people have integrity.

The people who show no respect for their partners concerns are not trustworthy. They demonstrate low integrity. Once a person bonds within an EA they will fight to keep it going. It is an addiction and they will become less honest with others and more importantly themselves. They delude themselves into believeing that anything that feels so good, so right has to be good and honest. They are under the influence of chemicals and thier usual judgement is impaired. They have lost their integrity. An EA is an addiction. The same brain chemicals are involved as with addictive drugs.

What is my point? That trust is broken when the spouse puts themselves into the situation even when thier spouse objects. This is not only inappropriate and unwise but is by definition ... unfaithful. It is not a matter of waiting for the spouse to actually consummate some other form of cheating. The betrayal began when they chose the other person over their spouse. The rest is just the betrayal playing out. So allowing this to go on is putting up with and enabling an unfaithful spouse in my opinion. Waiting to see what happens is conflict avoidance. Unfortunately it is also tacet approval that demonstrates low value to the WS. It is less about a grain of salt and more like a gram of coke.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

COguy

Entropy, that's one of the best posts I've read on TAM in regards to "cheating", it should be stickied.

Entropy3000

A sincere thank you. Your comment means more than you could know. I am especially passionate about this topic. In many ways I feel I have a debt to repay. I have given a lot of thought over the years from the perspective of one who has been in an EA. It scared the cr@p out of me. It shatterred my self respect and took me many years to truly recover. I thought I was superman. I loved my wife. She forgave me and was very understanding of the situation. Her love throughout has humbled me in a very good way.

I learned that we can all be vulnerable under the right circumstances. That is a very hard thing to come to grips with. I was arrogant, naive and had no clear boundaries. Now at least I have boundaries. I worked long hours in an intense environment so I was not meeting my wife's needs and I was not allowing my wife to meet mine. Instead I slowly was having some of them met by another. I was certain this was just a great friendship. I know now I had lost my integrity over this. I later realized it was a betrayal against the person who loved me the most in this world. The person I had promised myself to. My wife had enough love and compassion to reach out to me and pull me from this abyss. I was so in the fog with my head all the way up my @ss that I was sure I was ok. But my wife still lived at my center albeit it under attack. So I listened to her though I did not understand. There is an urgency to this.

My wife intervening was an act of love that intervened with my selfishness and ignorance. I was like a drug addict who needed intervention. She could have walked away and been justified to do so. So she was there for me in the face of my betrayal. She was not a doormat. But rather a compassionate partner who was looking out for her mate and her marriage. I have found this level of commitment on her part to be very humbling. In no way did she enable things. She told me what was happening. I insisted this was just a close friendship. She said it was not acceptable to her. She enlisted support from mutual friends and though my brain did not understand I listened to her. It was literally a voice in the fog I could not resist. I went through withdrawal for over a month. She saved us.

I suppose this is a tremendous threadjack ... BUT, I think it relates. His spouse is in an EA. He needs to not wait and see in my opinion. He should look at this as being compassionate to his wife. She is in over her head. If she is doing this intentionally then that is a whole other matter. In either case he should continue with the boundaries and consider firming them up with some consequences. The guy is indeed and affair partner now. he has come between a husband and wife. They are meeting each other needs. The fact she has already had an EA should indicate a lack of boundaries on her part.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

CandieGirl

This is what I long for my husband to realize; right now, I think he still thinks of me as somewhat 'controlling'. Well, in a way, yes, I'd like to control the direction of our marriage, instead of leaving it to chance (autopilot). I do it for love!

SkyIsBlue

Again, thank you all for your thoughts. I'm impressed and a little awed by the commitment you guys have to helping people on this board.

I've actually been reading these boards since the marriage first started having problems over a year ago. I've read a ton of threads, read recommended articles, MMSL, etc. and learned many things all as a result of trying to deal with my wife's earlier mistakes. Very little of what you are saying is truly new to me, but I do think every situation is unique enough that no one formula can be applied.

I've been trying to think of a good, clear answer to why I'm objecting to some of your advice, one that goes beyond, "that's not what's happening to my marriage blah blah blah."

When my wife got caught up before, it was an emotional affair at the most superficial level. Some guy at work started hitting on her--subtly at first but quickly escalated. She enjoyed the attention--a lot--but all the while thought of it as a game. It wasn't until he escalated physically that she really reined it in. Then when I confronted her later with my suspicions, she admitted the whole thing and began to realize what she'd done.

My point in telling this is simply to show that both my wife and I are familiar with the fog, even without any deep emotional involvement. She knows she got caught up in it before, and I know what she looked like when she was in the middle of it.

One reason I've been reluctant to just stomp this out altogether is that I haven't seen anything like that fog on her part, and this guy does not behave at all like the other guy. No escalating, no flirting, barely even a positive compliment. It's not deeply emotional and it's not sexual. Other than my gut feeling that she's getting something out of this that she shouldn't, I have nothing to go on.

That's why I posted in the first place. If this isn't an inappropriate relationship and I put a stranglehold on it, I do damage to my marriage and run the risk of her hiding things when she thinks I will overreact. But if I don't set a boundary, (a) I look weak, and (b) it could escalate to something else.

Entropy3000

It took me a while to realize all of this. Layer by layer. I guess if your boundaries are lacking good sense feels controlling.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

CandieGirl

Boundaries 101 - your wife should NOT be hiding things from you. In fact, if you only had the choice of one boundary, this should be it, 100% complete honesty! You don't look weak; but your boundaries are...

Shooboomafoo

I can hear the argument now.
"I dont want you to go out with him, you consider him a friend, but I am unsure of his motives". What man of any "character" at all would NOT know that she is married and that he looks suspicious to a husband? Only those kinds of men that dont give a sh!t.
Shes going to call you "controlling" and overbearing with it, and you will get mad because she doesnt understand boundaries, and then you will be at an empasse.
What will you do?

__________________
His delay, is not a denial.

strugglinghusband

By reading your posts, I've learned more about what an E/A is, how they start and the effects/damage,fog, ... better than anything else I've read anywhere,(links,books etc)...for that... I thank you.