Conrad

Curious...

Why do you disagree that abundance is all around us?

__________________
"Forgive or Re-Live"

-AFEH

Conrad

Jeff,

After the feedback you got on your sex ideas in other threads, you may want to tread lightly here

__________________
"Forgive or Re-Live"

-AFEH

Bluemoon1

FNG I read about the sexual moratorium and I must admit the idea made a lot of sense, but the very thought sends shudders down my spine, however when this holiday weekend is over (in the UK at least) I may give it some more thought, it seems a bit atomic bomb if you know what I mean, I am also interested in reading more about your experiences

MEM11363

When she said "have to get up early so I don't think I could do it justice tonight"

The response from you is: "Anticipation is a beautiful thing, make sure to get home from work on time tomorrow" and then smile and enjoy your evening.

The next night - if you get any resistance, you up the alpha a bit and smile - tell her - if you tease me like last night and then try to shut me down a full day later - I will have to spank you. And then see what happens. If she sincerely digs in and tells you she is not interested, then you freeze her out. You don't argue, complain, etc. You simply immediately deprioritize her and start being home less and being with her less when you are home.

A fair boundary for the high drive spouse is: My LD partner is not allowed to tease me and then deny me in a blatantly couldn't be bothered - kind of way. Because that is the more powerful (LD) partner, abusing their power in a self serving way.

As for the night you were out. It is ambiguous. Meaning she really may have been setting the stage for the next night. And as the HD partner you need to create situations where it is clear your boundaries have been blatantly violated before you react. She can't be walking on egg shells whenever she flirts. But neither can she flirt and forget - which can become an LD speciality if you aren't careful.

Tigerman

Conrad:

The short story about why I don't think abundance is all around is that my experience has taught me that too many of the people and institutions I deal with on a regular basis are not up to participating in or supporting mature and balanced interactions; e.g., not involving double-standards, not coming at things from a selfish perspective, interested in accepting situations for what they are and realistically dealing with the attendant limitations and consequences. Unrealistic expectations, insecurity, envy, laziness, and a sense of entitlement are far too prevalent. That doesn't mean that I can't still get a lot out of life, that I think everyone is morally terrible, or that every interaction with others is subpar. However, it does suggest to me that to the extent that the things I want to achieve are dependent on the cooperation of others (and pretty much everything in life is like that in some way), "abundance" doesn't really describe the situation. That said, what should matter most to me is how I'm doing things and the efforts I make to align my actions with my values and priorities. Am I working to be the best I can in the imperfect situations that are just part of living in the real world? So, the fact that I don't believe I'm surrounded by abundance doesn't really place any interesting limits on me.

I feel like I made decent progress with detaching the emotional hose. Not a perfect performance, but much better than what I would have done in the past. The wife and kids get back from their trip last night and she's just bushed. She's also cranky. A lot of that has to do with being tired, as my wife is one of those people who is badly affected by fatigue. Plus she's stressed from taking care of the kids for almost three days while I was at home. So, she's quiet and largely withdrawn last night. No problem, I have things to do and the evening passes without incident. I felt a little bit of the old anxiety of "does this mood have anything to do with me?", but I recognized it for that and just set it aside. It'd be nice to not even have that feeling, but getting to that point is off in the future.

However, I knew she was going to wake up still cranky. And she did. And our youngest was a bit sick, meaning that she was going to stay home from school, which blew up my wife's plans for the day. That sort of change and interruption is another thing that really throws her off. So, now she's tired and cranky, still working through the stress of her trip and now stressed yet further from the motherly instincts that kick in when a little one is ill, and agitated from the disappointment of having her plans for the day suddenly messed up. And then my oldest asks her why she's being so crabby. Which is yet another trigger, as I know my wife feels like she's been made the emotional center of the family and that everyone is always on the lookout for how she feels (I know my past behaviors definitely played a significant role in things turning out like this), and this is a major weight for her. So, it's an emotional tsunami at this point and she's totally walling herself off from everyone and everything, except for with the sick little one, as she's in full-on nurturing mode with her.

Now, I could have just totally not engaged with her, went about my morning business, and just left for work after quietly taking on a more active role in getting the older kids out the door for school. But, since I knew a lot of stuff was piling up for her, I thought it would be the decent thing to do to see if there was anything I could do to help her. And that triggered the following response: "Why am I getting attacked this morning for being how I am? The oldest was after me about it as soon as she got up and now it's you. Why does everything that goes on here always come down to how I'm feeling?" I didn't get emotional in reply or let the growing anxiety drive my response, although that clearly would have been the old standard course of action. Instead, I simply said, "Hey, I just wanted to make sure you're okay and see if you needed anything. No big deal. I wasn't looking for anything from you." Then I walked away. About fifteen minutes later she had calmed down a bit and came out to hug me (fortunately, no mention by either of us of what just happened), and shortly thereafter we said our usual good-byes for the day with no lingering bad feelings.

Now, part of me thinks that I shouldn't even have checked whether she was okay and needed me to do anything to help her out. After all, she's responsible for her happiness (etc) and if there was something she wanted/needed me to do, she should have said something. On the other hand, knowing how she shuts down when any one of the factors in play is present, and knowing how overwhelmed she's probably feeling, I also figured that she maybe could use some help, but couldn't articulate that and that I'd just suck it up and try to be at least outwardly supportive and concerned. I can't get paralyzed by trying to scrutinize every single decision I make or action I take, though, so I'm not going to worry what was right or wrong about that. In the end, what matters is that I didn't let the anxiety take a hold of me, didn't fixate on her mood in some "we have to fix this now" way, and didn't get into some post-game analysis of the situation once it resolved. Plus, I think it was good to clearly tell her that I wasn't looking for anything from her in the situation - wasn't needing her to feel good so that I could feel good, wasn't trying to fix her or change her mood, etc. In fact, I'd love for that to sink in with her, although I have no idea whether it will.

FormerNiceGuy

TigerMan, that is a great story. Awareness is 90% of the battle and you are awake and paying attention. It gets easier and the more she sees that you don't have an agenda, the easier it will be for her to just take your offer and accept your help.

Tigerman

Just a random observation that's emerged out of this: Over the last few months, I've been doing a lot of thinking about what a raging ayehole (among other things) I was for so long and why. That's been really useful for getting a better understanding of the actual situation, what I need to change about myself and why, and the reasons my wife has such strongly built walls right now. The problem is that the guilt that comes from realizing all this is is just crushing. Again, I didn't create this problem entirely by myself and I know there are things my wife needs to work on if her side of the street is going to get cleaned up. But when the pangs of guilt and shame about my past immaturity, selfishness, and insecurity kick in, that just amps up the craving for reassurance from her that everything is okay. Which certainly increases the degree of difficulty for my efforts to stop engaging in assurance-seeking behaviors merely for the sake of soothing my anxiety.

The hardest part of manning up just might be dealing with the long, hard look you end up taking at the version of you who needed to man up.

FormerNiceGuy

Congratulations. Your process continues to be inspirational.

Tigerman

Couple updates. First, no sex since that last time about two weeks ago. But the affectionate behavior and closeness are way up, with no arguments or tension. Feels good to have the air clearing, even if I'm dying to get laid! Last Thursday, we were making out in bed after a long day. My wife started to say something about knowing I wanted to go on and wishing that she had the energy for it, but I jumped right in and said that I was really tired and was just about ready to pass out. She obviously found that a bit unexpected and it felt good to put the brakes on things in a loose way like that. It wasn't revenge for past rejections, wasn't trying to send a message or anything. Just, I'm tired, you're tired, let's enjoy this and leave it at that.

On Monday night, I decided to take a chance and, after the kids went to bed, in a casual and fun way, told my wife that if she wanted to have sex with me that night, I wouldn't say no. She replied that she was really worn out and stressed from the day, but that we should definitely do it later in the week. She and I both have things that might prevent that happening until the weekend, but no problem there. I'm going to leave it to her to keep this in mind and initiate when she has the time/focus/energy. I won't even offer any reminders.

This morning, I woke up cranky. Just tired and still stressed from a bad day at work yesterday. My wife notices this and almost immediately starts worrying that I'm mad at her about something. I reassure her that everything's okay, tell her that it's fatigue and work stress, we make out a bit, and nothing else comes of it. On the one hand, this is great - she's clearly responding to me, wants to be close to me, and sees continued good feelings between us as worth having. On the other hand, this drives me nuts. Whenever she's moody/cranky/whatever, if I asked her what's wrong or whether I did something to upset her (which I've stopped asking), she'd get irritated and makes it clear that I shouldn't think her moods are so dependent on me. However, for her it seems perfectly okay to think that my bad mood has to do with something connected to her. I'm not going to get too wrapped up in this, but it is a frustrating double standard.

Lastly, found out some more stuff from my wife about just how badly the grief she's been dealing with has affected her. It's been over a year now and she still gets very sad, very easily. Makes it pretty easy to understand why her libido would be just about gone, especially with all the other stuff going on. Also makes it easy to see why it would have been so hard for us to connect in pretty much any way during that time. It also makes me feel like a jerk for not realizing how strong those feelings have continued to be for her.

Jeff/BC

The only problem with being strong is that you have to be strong.

FormerNiceGuy

I think this is the "sh#t test" from your wife. The minute you start reassuring her that you aren't mad at her, you are back in care taking mode. Don't take the bait - use humor or just kindly dismiss it. "Let me be grumpy."

My wife started taking piano lessons and she has issues around it. I asked her how her last lesson went and she crankily told me she doesn't want to talk about it. I chuckled. Later, she said "I don't want feedback, just to express a couple of feelings." I listened, gave her a hug and that was that. All good.

I can relate to the harsh clarity of the mirror when you stop to look at it. I would own it and put words to it for your wife. She may react by getting mad - I would smile and say, yes, I didn't behave very well, I am sorry. Sincerity & authenticity.

MEM11363

Tiger,
You are doing great. As for the she gets to ask you - you don't get to ask her - that really is ok. You will never be perfectly matched in terms of what bothers each other. If she easily feels crowded when she is upset, give her space.

If it isn't a big headache for you - when you are upset and she asks - just acknowledge it - ideally with a smile: Yes I am grumpy right now. It won't last. And then go on with your day. IF she pushes you with "are you mad at me"? You are within your rights to be kind and respond with "not you, just the situation". Or if you prefer "This isn't a good time to talk - lets catch up later". This is not "shutting her down", but it is enforcing a boundary which is: If I am upset (but not taking it out on anyone) I have the right to insist on some space.

My only suggestion is that this needs to be based on what YOU want to do, independent of what she does.

As for kissing and stuff. That is great. It is also fair to say "If you are really tired - lets not kiss - it is hard for me to fall asleep if we kiss and then stop". This is a basic acknowledgement of the difference between male and female physiology.

And this too - needs to be handled firmly but fairly. If she attempts to turn the "no kissing" into "are you angry at me". You might want to mix some kindness in with the honesty.

"Mad - my W wants to make out with me - I am not mad I am happy. I just know that kissing you wakes me UP and then it is hard to sleep - not mad at all".

Tigerman

Thanks for all the feedback. Things are going very well now. In fact, my wife told me last night that she's glad we're fully back together as partners, after such up-and-down times. There's still a lot I need to do to make sure I continue to build on the steps I've taken to improve myself. And I definitely want to make sure that the current good times continue before I get too comfortable. But it's good to see that the efforts so far have really had some effect. This no longer feels so hopeless, that's for sure.

One problem now is a concern about PE. When we had sex two weeks ago, I came much faster than I wanted to. Last night was no better. I've never had this problem before. My wife was totally cool about it and we joked about trying to add another minute when we do it tonight (!). But, I don't want this to go on. I'm sure a lot of this is just being out of practice (drops of water to a man who just came out of the desert) and a lot also has to do with anxiety about wanting it to be good after things had been bad for so long. This will likely sort itself out in a short bit of time, but if anyone has any advice about this, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks again for all the feedback. This forum has been a huge help.
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AFEH

After you’ve PEd just take your time and work up for a second time. More caresses, massage for your wife, fingering, derive and give pleasure from finding her erogenous zones .... It’s all you need do. Maybe make sure there’s some nibbles and drink on hand, chocs that sort of thing.

Mavash.

Most women understand it going fast when it's been a while. Don't stress over it. It's totally normal.