This is my first draft. Would like input from those who ended up in that state. I have left out the whole pregnancy/menopause thing from the first draft. I will add that later.
The path to a sexually broken marriage is often remarkably short. The odds of repair drop rapidly if you let this persist for more than a few months. Waiting, being patient and accepting patently false statements all reinforce the idea that you will continue to meet your partner’s needs to the best of your ability, while they do or don’t do as they please.
From all the reading I have done, the underlying causes are remarkably simple.
1. You have allowed your partner to believe they are way more important than you are. At the extreme, you have become unimportant compared even to their casual friends. This one is hugely important and easy to gauge.
a. Your partner treats you noticeably worse than:
i. They expect you to treat them. They are consistently doing things to you, that they would not tolerate if done to them
ii. They treat their friends and family
iii. Other people treat you. If your friends and family treat you much better than your spouse, that is a bad sign
b. Specific areas to look at:
i. How comfortable are they repeatedly hurting your feelings
ii. How easy is it for you to get and keep their undivided attention
iii. When you have different priorities on how to spend time or money how hard do they try to find a solution that takes your feelings into consideration
iv. How often do they get angry because you aren’t eager/willing to do what they want
v. How often do they get angry when you express dissatisfaction with their behavior
vi. How often do they go out of their way to do something nice for you without being asked
vii. How often do they apologize when they are clearly in the wrong
2. You are chasing / suffocating your partner with a rapid fire stream of loving acts, without giving them the space to reciprocate. This makes them feel bad. Maybe even anxious. And it causes them to perceive you as clingy.
a. This isn’t about love. Love is great. It is about insecurity and a lack of self control.
b. Repeatedly approaching your partner for sex, night after night, when they keep rejecting you is incredibly toxic to the marriage, your self esteem and their respect for you
3. You have let yourself go. There are two flavors to this:
a. Behavioral: You have changed from the happy, adventurous,….long list here….. person you were into what you are today
b. Physical: Your fitness level, and/or your standards of appearance have changed.
4. You don’t pay close enough attention to them in bed to really know what they like/love sexually
a. You allow your partner to behave in a degrading manner towards you in a sexual context. Two very common themes are: (1) can we hurry up and get this over with. (2) refusal to kiss you – really kiss you anymore including when you are having sex
b. When they tell you stuff in/out the bedroom, you tend not to accept and adjust. Instead you defend and deny.
c. You rely way too much on words and way too little on body language/tone of voice and miss a lot of communication from your partner
Items 1 and 2 above are like nitro and glycerin. Combine them and you have a disaster. Because chasing a badly behaved partner is like pouring gasoline on a fire hoping it will go out.
One real world example that shows how 1 and 2 combine is this:
The LD partner does something wrong/mean – they were very clearly the transgressor. The HD partner apologizes in the hopes of making up so they can have sex soon, maybe even tonight.
That sequence is the first definitive step on the path to sexlessness. Trading self respect and the overall health of the marriage to get physical/sexual reassurance (this is typically the HD partners anxiety management tactic), is toxic.
Even without sex as the driver, apologizing to a partner who has clearly wronged you, is very unhealthy for both of you.
I think the trend towards sexlessness is long, months, maybe years. The behavior starts to make the path clear ... but it isn't absolute. I think it is very important as we so often used to talk about, to be aware of the attraction level.
If your spouse, is into you, is engaging, affectionate, supportive and communicative, then it's easy to imagine that the trend, would be towards greater, and more frequent intimacy.
If the trend starts to move away from the positive things above then that is the signal of a barometric pressure drop before the proverbial storm.
In my case, we had a tremendous amount of friction in the beginning of our relationship. That friction actually translated to without question the most passionate relationship of my life ... thus far.
So therefore, as we wound the friction down, with the expectation that that should be a good thing ... in terms of a balanced, stable, loving relationship, it was rather easy to overlook the drop in passion. Dare I say, almost as if we expected it. But when physical issues began further complicating things and I very much backed off, the trend then instead, became a dynamic. It became the status quo. Her avoiding intimacy and my seeking it.
And again, it wasn't 'pathetic' out of the gate, it was exploratory. I approached it from a 'What can I do to improve things?' perspective. And as she became more comfortable with rejection ... that dynamic became the tragic norm.
What is he going to do to try 'to just get sex'. And how will I shut him down?
That became our normal. A very unhealthy and unsatisfying normal for both partners.
This is my first draft. Would like input from those who ended up in that state. I have left out the whole pregnancy/menopause thing from the first draft. I will add that later.
The path to a sexually broken marriage is often remarkably short. The odds of repair drop rapidly if you let this persist for more than a few months. Waiting, being patient and accepting patently false statements all reinforce the idea that you will continue to meet your partner’s needs to the best of your ability, while they do or don’t do as they please.
From all the reading I have done, the underlying causes are remarkably simple.
1. You have allowed your partner to believe they are way more important than you are. At the extreme, you have become unimportant compared even to their casual friends. This one is hugely important and easy to gauge.
a. Your partner treats you noticeably worse than:
i. They expect you to treat them. They are consistently doing things to you, that they would not tolerate if done to them
ii. They treat their friends and family
iii. Other people treat you. If your friends and family treat you much better than your spouse, that is a bad sign
b. Specific areas to look at:
i. How comfortable are they repeatedly hurting your feelings
ii. How easy is it for you to get and keep their undivided attention
iii. When you have different priorities on how to spend time or money how hard do they try to find a solution that takes your feelings into consideration
iv. How often do they get angry because you aren’t eager/willing to do what they want
v. How often do they get angry when you express dissatisfaction with their behavior
vi. How often do they go out of their way to do something nice for you without being asked
vii. How often do they apologize when they are clearly in the wrong
2. You are chasing / suffocating your partner with a rapid fire stream of loving acts, without giving them the space to reciprocate. This makes them feel bad. Maybe even anxious. And it causes them to perceive you as clingy.
a. This isn’t about love. Love is great. It is about insecurity and a lack of self control.
b. Repeatedly approaching your partner for sex, night after night, when they keep rejecting you is incredibly toxic to the marriage, your self esteem and their respect for you
3. You have let yourself go. There are two flavors to this:
a. Behavioral: You have changed from the happy, adventurous,….long list here….. person you were into what you are today
b. Physical: Your fitness level, and/or your standards of appearance have changed.
4. You don’t pay close enough attention to them in bed to really know what they like/love sexually
a. You allow your partner to behave in a degrading manner towards you in a sexual context. Two very common themes are: (1) can we hurry up and get this over with. (2) refusal to kiss you – really kiss you anymore including when you are having sex
b. When they tell you stuff in/out the bedroom, you tend not to accept and adjust. Instead you defend and deny.
c. You rely way too much on words and way too little on body language/tone of voice and miss a lot of communication from your partner
Items 1 and 2 above are like nitro and glycerin. Combine them and you have a disaster. Because chasing a badly behaved partner is like pouring gasoline on a fire hoping it will go out.
One real world example that shows how 1 and 2 combine is this:
The LD partner does something wrong/mean – they were very clearly the transgressor. The HD partner apologizes in the hopes of making up so they can have sex soon, maybe even tonight.
That sequence is the first definitive step on the path to sexlessness. Trading self respect and the overall health of the marriage to get physical/sexual reassurance (this is typically the HD partners anxiety management tactic), is toxic.
Even without sex as the driver, apologizing to a partner who has clearly wronged you, is very unhealthy for both of you.
Question the first - do intend doing anything in particular with these once they have got through the draft stage? They really are too good to just languish unread by a wider constituency.
I know men in sexless marriage who would not recognise part 1 above at all. Their partners are kind, loving and certainly don't insult or belittle them, or treat others better than them. Their wives simply place no store on the importance or value of sex. To them it's not comparing apples and pears, it's apples and camels! They might be very sorry if asked about a lack of sex, but certainly won't see why it's a problem. Even if told, they don't get it. These mens' wives would (and do) feel awful if their husbands confront them over a lack of sex, and that their husbands feel ill-treated as a result. They would never do anything to consciously hurt their husbands, but the idea of having sex spontaneously, or letting themselves be warmed up if they aren't already in the mood, just isn't on their radar. They might read magazines and look at the sex columns, but think it doesn't apply to them and isn't within their capability to achieve.
These same wives under 4 above would know the answer. They don't know, can't articulate it, in some cases don't want to know. They certainly wouldn't do your "optician's game", MEM
These are the kind of people who seem to have no connection to their own sexuality, and frankly, don't want one. They might have made a good show of enthusiasm at one stage, but never really became comfortable with it, and would rather it just quietly went away and didn't bother them any more.
In this case, it's like an insidious, chronic disease - there's no fighting, no argument, no "warning pain" if you like, it just quietly eats away at the marriage until it's metastatised into every bit and it's too late.
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What's Weshenjuggalslomomengreskeytemskeytudlogueri? I don't know what you say, brother.
Then you don't jin Romani chib...
Deejo,
You understand my current situation very well. I can say this without hesitation though. Maybe it is because I am selfish, when we could have intercourse, even the nights my W didn't O, it was incredible. Not every time, but most of the time.
I rarely have sex now without some background chatter in my head "gee this must be really fun for her". Gun to my head, if I had to guess this is 80 percent responsibility driven. And the rest is the odd time where she feels enough lust to want to.
When I wrote my draft, I didn't harp on it, but I do believe the rejection dynamic is big. Somehow early on my W realized that rejection was a BIG deal. Managed poorly it would be the catalyst of marital destruction.
I am unable to think of a single time in our marriage where my W "rejected" me twice in a row. Nor can I think of a time in the last decade plus where any "request to connect" tomorrow was made in an unkind manner.
But I do think the rejection dynamic gets established in the first few months, or it doesn't. Because that pattern really does mean "I am more important than you, the kids are more important than you, etc.". It is very rare that the LD partner truly doesn't "know". The LD partners (SA represents the tiny minority) know:
- It really is important to you
- You likely aren't going to leave/cheat over it
They feign ignorance as it allows them to blameshift.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deejo
I think the trend towards sexlessness is long, months, maybe years. The behavior starts to make the path clear ... but it isn't absolute. I think it is very important as we so often used to talk about, to be aware of the attraction level.
If your spouse, is into you, is engaging, affectionate, supportive and communicative, then it's easy to imagine that the trend, would be towards greater, and more frequent intimacy.
If the trend starts to move away from the positive things above then that is the signal of a barometric pressure drop before the proverbial storm.
In my case, we had a tremendous amount of friction in the beginning of our relationship. That friction actually translated to without question the most passionate relationship of my life ... thus far.
So therefore, as we wound the friction down, with the expectation that that should be a good thing ... in terms of a balanced, stable, loving relationship, it was rather easy to overlook the drop in passion. Dare I say, almost as if we expected it. But when physical issues began further complicating things and I very much backed off, the trend then instead, became a dynamic. It became the status quo. Her avoiding intimacy and my seeking it.
And again, it wasn't 'pathetic' out of the gate, it was exploratory. I approached it from a 'What can I do to improve things?' perspective. And as she became more comfortable with rejection ... that dynamic became the tragic norm.
What is he going to do to try 'to just get sex'. And how will I shut him down?
That became our normal. A very unhealthy and unsatisfying normal for both partners.
It is very rare that the LD partner truly doesn't "know". The LD partners (SA represents the tiny minority) know:
- It really is important to you
- You likely aren't going to leave/cheat over it
In this case MEM, I think you are actually wrong. I strongly suspect that SA's position represents to norm, rather than the exception. The old saying goes "never attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance". I believe in this situation it frequently represents the unvarnished truth, and that even when it is explained it represents an "unpalatable truth".
__________________
Can you rokker Romani chib, pal? Aye, aye, brother!
What's Weshenjuggalslomomengreskeytemskeytudlogueri? I don't know what you say, brother.
Then you don't jin Romani chib...
SB,
Is it possible that this is a case where the statement they don't know really is true. If you hooked them up to a polygraph they would honestly say something like "of course he wants more sex, he's a man" and they would 100 percent believe that.
And when asked, do you realize he is incredibly hurt by your rejections and indifference they would say "he doesn't like it, but incredibly hurt" no.
And of course the ultimate question:
Do you think he is seriously considering leaving/cheating over this? And the answer would be absolutely not, I "would know".'
I don't want to generalize from a small set of "self selected" data points but your point is beginning to resonate with me.
Take Munchie. Comes here looking for support and some explanation for what happened to her. She was on the surface very honest. I can't say more than that because I don't know.
This is what she said:
1. 4 kids married 20 years
2. she was the stay at home mom, he was a successful business man
3. their sex life cratered early - I am guessing well before their last child
4. he would periodically have a highly impassioned talk with her about it
5. in between talks he was Mr. nice guy - taking the family on nice vacations - and her point was and it was a very fair point - WHY would he take us on nice vacations if he really was this upset
6. to her credit - she fully acknowledged the ONE TALK they had, which changed the entire emotional dynamic between them over the affair. changed it to - she fully grasped that she had treated him very badly for a long time
7. that "talk" was the right talk, he stupidly had it so many years into the marriage she ignored it.
8. He said and I am quoting her quoting him: "Your sex life may be over but mine isn't"
And I decomposed that talk with her:
1. He says his sex life isn't over
2. She figures he means porn or strip clubs and is hoping that means he will completely stop pestering her for sex. She felt so safe (and this was your point all along) that she did not EVEN ASK HIM WHAT HE MEANT BY "MY SEX LIFE ISN'T OVER". She didn't even ask.
3. Oh yeah - one more thing - when she discovered the affair, it had been going for 4 months. And her H, with some sense of decency had decided he wouldn't sleep with both of them. So he and his wife had not had sex in 4 months and she admitted that she hadn't even noticed.
A guy who had maybe had sex 20 times in the last 5 years was suddenly having sex almost 20 times a MONTH. Yes - his wife, realizing the cause of the train wreck was adamant they connect 4 times a week.
I think she gave up and went away because I ummm, well I was fairly adamant that she tell him the truth. And a "part" of the truth was that she treated him as badly in this area as she thought she could get away with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawney Beane
In this case MEM, I think you are actually wrong. I strongly suspect that SA's position represents to norm, rather than the exception. The old saying goes "never attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance". I believe in this situation it frequently represents the unvarnished truth, and that even when it is explained it represents an "unpalatable truth".
In this case MEM, I think you are actually wrong. I strongly suspect that SA's position represents to norm, rather than the exception. The old saying goes "never attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance". I believe in this situation it frequently represents the unvarnished truth, and that even when it is explained it represents an "unpalatable truth".
I strongly feel....the majority of women just don't "get it" ..... I don't even think I could classify myself as LD though -even back then. Because I "craved" it after so many days. I had little idea what was TRULY boiling under the surface ......because...
My husband didn't let me go long enough to "feel that" & get really antsy so I felt sexually neglected myself....& back then, if I did... I would have just secretly took care of it myself (boy that was stupid- while he was dying for it)... and he was so darn LAX at trying to help me understand...completely putting himself down in this... The most he showed was a loss of patience with the kids. Never showed a wink of anger towards me, there were comments here & there I would hear him say to a friend, calling me a Nun. But he was kinda joking at the time.
He was the nice guy in Overdrive in this area. And he refused to show himself needy, that was his position.
What I think happens is most men DO show ANGER , like Dean mentioned... the wives put up a wall, feeling "what the H is wrong with him".....I wouldn't have closed up... I like to fight ....He should have let me know what for. Why do we always marry the ones that are so different from us.
It is only good if we understand each other. When we don't.... we miss each other.
Quote:
Dean said:. I also think that SB has a point.
This isn't me but there are men that have complete control of their emotions. Generally very steady, rock solid, don't have the highs or lows.
Because of this, when their wife puts them thru part 1 in your first post. They don't see it. It doesn't phase them. But I do believe it is there, just like you describe it.
The wife could know it. But the wife may also not know it because she isn't getting any feedback from her husband.
Because he has excellent control over his emotions and his emotions are stable/rock solid.
Ha ha ...I don't think they make them any more stable than my husband....this is SOOOOOOOO him !!
Dean,
The thing that helped me/us so much with (1) was that I inherited this "interpersonal filter" from my father. I notice and usually understand behavioral patterns. My own included. In fact, were I to choose to do so, I could take a stroll down memory lane and take you through a long list of things that I wish I could "do over" from the first decade of our marriage. Often as I perceived my own patterns I self corrected. Sometimes the self correction cycle was very long though. It is one thing to recognize a flaw, much harder to change.
I smiled as I read the bit about your rare 'back to back' rejection reaction. My question on that front is sort of simplistic, but I really am curious. Looking back, was it overall a good thing, or a bad thing that you did that? I am sure your W didn't like it at the time. But we cannot possibly hope to make a lower desire spouse understand how important something is purely by telling them in a calm, low key way that we really dislike it. Almost everything I learned from my W about was important to her occurred when she was clearly not happy with me about it.
Whether or not she could say exactly why, I bet your W knows at some level that repeated rejection is very hurtful. Because you conveyed that when it happened.
As for the solid emotional control. For some guys that is it. For others, they are not willing to have conflict with their wives. They see "conflict" as inherently bad. I don't. For me, if I could go back in time it wouldn't be to change so much what we had conflict over. It would be how I behaved when we had conflict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Dean*
MEM
Your posts cause me to think and I do share most of your views. I also think that SB has a point.
This isn't me but there are men that have complete control of their emotions.
Generally very steady, rock solid, don't have the highs or lows.
Because of this, when their wife puts them thru part 1 in your first post.
They don't see it. It doesn't phase them. But I do believe it is there, just like you describe it.
The wife could know it. But the wife may also not know it because she isn't getting any feedback from her husband.
Because he has excellent control over his emotions and his emotions are stable/rock solid.
It's not until it goes on for a long time that he finally realizes that something is wrong.
He then doesn't know how it got there. How he got to that point.
By then the behavior has already been learned by his wife and has become the norm.
Anyway, you did a lot of work and it's well written.
By the way, I always considered it normal to be rejected from time to time.
In my long marriage, I have only been rejected a few times where it was back to back.
I wish I had more control over my emotions but it didn't go over well and I really let the
wife know how it made me feel, got upset. Took a few days to get things back to normal with the wife.
SA,
I don't think the HD partner ever benefits from playing the game of "who can hold out longer".
I am also astonished by the ability of so many men to treat their wives so well, when they have clearly been dropped so far down on the priority list they are virtually invisible.
I remember a number of conversations that went something like this.
Me: I don't ask you to justify how you spend your time. Never have, never will. You do a fantastic job with the children, a job I could never do half as well. And a great job with the house and everything else. It is also true that somehow you need to find a way to come to bed before you are ready to go right to sleep. Because leaving no energy for me is not ok.
Some of those conversations were adult like. And many were filled with anger - mine mainly. And I think my W would tell you that any type of sexual disconnect that wasn't linked to illness created a: If sex isn't a high priority - that means I am not a high priority and that shifts the tone of all our interactions.
There isn't really a "right" answer to this.
Since "our" current situation regarding intimacy is challenged I sometimes revel in the past. While it is true that I mostly write about how we "found a compromise" that worked for both of us, it might seem that our marriage has often been a struggle over sex, with me wanting more and my W wanting less. But that isn't quite right and it certainly didn't begin that way.
For the first 6 weeks we only kissed. I started sleeping over after 3-4 weeks, but I would only make out with her and then go to sleep. LMAO - I had NO IDEA she was starting to question my desire for her, and even my sexual orientation. And that she was beginning to feel insulted by my lack of progression. We were 26 and no other guy had ever "slept over many times a week" and not at least tried to sleep "with" her.
When I planned our first weekend trip away, I wasn't thinking "cool, maybe we will have sex", I was thinking "cool I get to spend a whole weekend with this super cool woman". FYI: I was super attracted to her. When we made out I instantly got rock hard and stayed that way every time. But I was falling in love (even though I didn't fully realize it at the time) and was in no hurry at all.
Boy was she mad when Friday night came and went with one more make out session. One last point on this, in all those nights - she never even gently tried to move things along. She was completely wired to be pursued, not to be the pursuer. Saturday morning I wake up in our hotel in Annapolis and this lightbulb goes off. And I suddenly realize she is really angry. She has no clue why I am behaving unlike any normal red blooded male would, and she is about to break up with me due to a complete lack of understanding.
She comes out of the bathroom freshly showered and I walk up start kissing her and then begin to take advantage of the fact she is only wearing two towels. Then I look her in the eye and say "I am going to take a shower - will be back in five minutes - don't bother getting dressed".
Every once in a while I make light of the fact that she "pressured me" into having pre-marital sex". She was by no means my first partner so it is just a bit of humor. Of course it is a type of masturbation via humor because I am the only one who finds that particular observation hilarious. She quietly rolls her eyes and looks forward to our next wrestling match where she has a chance to "get even" with me for being so obnoxious.
And when I think back and remember, there were so many times where she would surprise me. There were 3 different vacations where we ended up at a secluded beach and the next thing I knew we were at full rut. And the time at the beach in waves up to our neck, where she started kissing me. And I pointed out that if she continued she would need to go to the beach first and bring a towel out to the waterline so I wouldn't be walking around in a bathing suit with a tent pole pushing it out in front. And her solution was to have sex in the water within 100 feet of a bunch of people sitting on the sand. The waves were bouncing us up and down so it wasn't totally obvious what was happening.
And then the year our youngest child turned 5, she decided to send me to work happy - every day. So we were on a two a day schedule for a year.
Ah but I ramble....
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous
I strongly feel....the majority of women just don't "get it" ..... I don't even think I could classify myself as LD though -even back then. Because I "craved" it after so many days. I had little idea what was TRULY boiling under the surface ......because...
My husband didn't let me go long enough to "feel that" & get really antsy so I felt sexually neglected myself....& back then, if I did... I would have just secretly took care of it myself (boy that was stupid- while he was dying for it)... and he was so darn LAX at trying to help me understand...completely putting himself down in this... The most he showed was a loss of patience with the kids. Never showed a wink of anger towards me, there were comments here & there I would hear him say to a friend, calling me a Nun. But he was kinda joking at the time.
He was the nice guy in Overdrive in this area. And he refused to show himself needy, that was his position.
What I think happens is most men DO show ANGER , like Dean mentioned... the wives put up a wall, feeling "what the H is wrong with him".....I wouldn't have closed up... I like to fight ....He should have let me know what for. Why do we always marry the ones that are so different from us.
It is only good if we understand each other. When we don't.... we miss each other.
Ha ha ...I don't think they make them any more stable than my husband....this is SOOOOOOOO him !!
Your posts cause me to think and I do share most of your views. I also think that SB has a point.
This isn't me but there are men that have complete control of their emotions.
Generally very steady, rock solid, don't have the highs or lows.
Because of this, when their wife puts them thru part 1 in your first post.
They don't see it. It doesn't phase them. But I do believe it is there, just like you describe it.
The wife could know it. But the wife may also not know it because she isn't getting any feedback from her husband.
Because he has excellent control over his emotions and his emotions are stable/rock solid.
It's not until it goes on for a long time that he finally realizes that something is wrong.
He then doesn't know how it got there. How he got to that point.
By then the behavior has already been learned by his wife and has become the norm.
Anyway, you did a lot of work and it's well written.
By the way, I always considered it normal to be rejected from time to time.
In my long marriage, I have only been rejected a few times where it was back to back.
I wish I had more control over my emotions but it didn't go over well and I really let the
wife know how it made me feel, got upset. Took a few days to get things back to normal with the wife.
What a fantastic analysis. Brilliant insight. And I agree with you regarding MEM's opening post.
__________________
Can you rokker Romani chib, pal? Aye, aye, brother!
What's Weshenjuggalslomomengreskeytemskeytudlogueri? I don't know what you say, brother.
Then you don't jin Romani chib...
MEM11363 said: I had NO IDEA she was starting to question my desire for her, and even my sexual orientation
Had to laugh about your 1st 6 weeks... the Playboy who slowed down so much -out of LOVE hitting him in between the eyes & heart, she questioned whether you was Gay! Now that is a hoot !
My husband has told me when we met, he didn't think of me in that way.... He told me this a couple yrs ago, I said "WHAT, what the heck was wrong with you?!@#$%" (that didn't seem right to me somehow).... He told me he didn't start thinking of me LIKE THAT until.... I started putting my hands down his pants. That took us a little longer than 6 weeks but it wasn't too long.
Quote:
SA,
I don't think the HD partner ever benefits from playing the game of "who can hold out longer".
Oh I couldn't agree more, heck I wouldn't even be able to play that Game ... might as well shoot me in the head! I am so thankful I am female!! My mom told me once that my dad used to tell her he was going to die. That would be me...if I was a guy!
Quote:
I am also astonished by the ability of so many men to treat their wives so well, when they have clearly been dropped so far down on the priority list they are virtually invisible.
Of course you are because you are very assertive by nature and your temperment demands you speak up...I am a broken record on Temperments on this forum....but let me go there again.... when I read my husbands on this link... ISFJ Profile .... I laughed like mad - it was SOOOO freaking HIM. I even felt a little better cause it says others take him for granted & he eggs it on! (seriously)
As it would be difficult for YOU (and someone like myself, obviously Dean also) to PUT ourselves down....for some like my husband, (only 8% of men have this temperment -compared to near 30% of women).... it is difficult and a struggle to assert themselves, it does not come "natural"...I know this is INSANELY difficult for some to digest (especially you Alpha men)... but I believe it....cause I have lived with it.... I can't change my husband....I needed to accept him.
Sure he could have done MORE, oh yeah... but he fell to a weak side of his nature. .....JUST as YOU, DEAN and so many men have fallen into the WEAK SIDE of your nature showing outright ANGER over these things, knowing you went too far & could have handled that better back in the day.
He sees his blunders too, they are just very different. Both temperments needed to come more "to the center" in these things. I need more center too - when I get mad... believe me.
I know I am damn good for him --because I can PULL these things out of him, he needs someone like that!!! So long as I care enough. Missed that in the past to some degree obviously.
It was never all that bad, even he would say...."It was still good, we had the kids"... Those were his words ...plus I always initiated (unlike many wives)... never once was a limp ragdoll by any means, once we started kissing, I was enraptured, never a chore, can't relate to such feelings.
Just to explain the WHY's behind SOME of these men...such as my husband....he was TRUE to his nature...
Quote:
ISFJs are characterized above all by their desire to serve others, their "need to be needed." In extreme cases, this need is so strong that standard give-and-take relationships are deeply unsatisfying to them.
ISFJs are often unappreciated, at work, home, and play. Ironically, because they prove over and over that they can be relied on for their loyalty and unstinting, high-quality work, those around them often take them for granted--even take advantage of them. Admittedly, the problem is sometimes aggravated by the ISFJs themselves; for instance, they are notoriously bad at delegating ("If you want it done right, do it yourself"). And although they're hurt by being treated like doormats, they are often unwilling to toot their own horns about their accomplishments because they feel that although they deserve more credit than they're getting, it's somehow wrong to want any sort of reward for doing work (which is supposed to be a virtue in itself).
While their work ethic is high on the ISFJ priority list, their families are the centers of their lives. ISFJs are extremely warm and demonstrative within the family circle.
One ISFJ trait that is easily misunderstood by those who haven't known them long is that they are often unable to either hide or articulate any distress they may be feeling. For instance, an ISFJ child may be reproved for "sulking," the actual cause of which is a combination of physical illness plus misguided "good manners." An adult ISFJ may drive a (later ashamed) friend or SO into a fit of temper over the ISFJ's unexplained moodiness, only afterwards to explain about a death in the family they "didn't want to burden anyone with."
Those close to ISFJs should learn to watch for the warning signs in these situations and take the initiative themselves to uncover the problem.
SA,
You make a great observation. The act of assertion is an act of strength. In a marriage, the act of aggression is typically a show of weakness. My delivery style early on was mostly an expression of fear.
In the earlier part of the marriage:
"I am afraid that you don't love me as much as I want you to. And that makes me angry. Uncontrollably angry".
Because back then, somehow her behavior was still "all about me".
In the latter part of the marriage:
Her behavior is all about her. I will point it out, but ultimately she has to decide what kind of marriage she wants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous
Had to laugh about your 1st 6 weeks... the Playboy who slowed down so much -out of LOVE hitting him in between the eyes & heart, she questioned whether you was Gay! Now that is a hoot !
My husband has told me when we met, he didn't think of me in that way.... He told me this a couple yrs ago, I said "WHAT, what the heck was wrong with you?!@#$%" (that didn't seem right to me somehow).... He told me he didn't start thinking of me LIKE THAT until.... I started putting my hands down his pants. That took us a little longer than 6 weeks but it wasn't too long.
Oh I couldn't agree more, heck I wouldn't even be able to play that Game ... might as well shoot me in the head! I am so thankful I am female!! My mom told me once that my dad used to tell her he was going to die. That would be me...if I was a guy!
Of course you are because you are very assertive by nature and your temperment demands you speak up...I am a broken record on Temperments on this forum....but let me go there again.... when I read my husbands on this link... ISFJ Profile .... I laughed like mad - it was SOOOO freaking HIM. I even felt a little better cause it says others take him for granted & he eggs it on! (seriously)
As it would be difficult for YOU (and someone like myself, obviously Dean also) to PUT ourselves down....for some like my husband, (only 8% of men have this temperment -compared to near 30% of women).... it is difficult and a struggle to assert themselves, it does not come "natural"...I know this is INSANELY difficult for some to digest (especially you Alpha men)... but I believe it....cause I have lived with it.... I can't change my husband....I needed to accept him.
Sure he could have done MORE, oh yeah... but he fell to a weak side of his nature. .....JUST as YOU, DEAN and so many men have fallen into the WEAK SIDE of your nature showing outright ANGER over these things, knowing you went too far & could have handled that better back in the day.
He sees his blunders too, they are just very different. Both temperments needed to come more "to the center" in these things. I need more center too - when I get mad... believe me.
I know I am damn good for him --because I can PULL these things out of him, he needs someone like that!!! So long as I care enough. Missed that in the past to some degree obviously.
It was never all that bad, even he would say...."It was still good, we had the kids"... Those were his words ...plus I always initiated (unlike many wives)... never once was a limp ragdoll by any means, once we started kissing, I was enraptured, never a chore, can't relate to such feelings.
Just to explain the WHY's behind SOME of these men...such as my husband....he was TRUE to his nature......Now I know!
I've heard that quite a bit. It's an insult. The wife decides she's not 'into' sex anymore and then shortly after starts intimating her mate is gay. Of course it's all nonsense and self righteous justification for being a jerk. I'm too old to engage those games. Let her tell whomever she likes whatever she likes.
For the first 6 weeks we only kissed. I started sleeping over after 3-4 weeks, but I would only make out with her and then go to sleep. LMAO - I had NO IDEA she was starting to question my desire for her, and even my sexual orientation. And that she was beginning to feel insulted by my lack of progression. We were 26 and no other guy had ever "slept over many times a week" and not at least tried to sleep "with" her.
When I planned our first weekend trip away, I wasn't thinking "cool, maybe we will have sex", I was thinking "cool I get to spend a whole weekend with this super cool woman". FYI: I was super attracted to her. When we made out I instantly got rock hard and stayed that way every time. But I was falling in love (even though I didn't fully realize it at the time) and was in no hurry at all.
Boy was she mad when Friday night came and went with one more make out session. One last point on this, in all those nights - she never even gently tried to move things along. She was completely wired to be pursued, not to be the pursuer. Saturday morning I wake up in our hotel in Annapolis and this lightbulb goes off. And I suddenly realize she is really angry. She has no clue why I am behaving unlike any normal red blooded male would, and she is about to break up with me due to a complete lack of understanding.
She comes out of the bathroom freshly showered and I walk up start kissing her and then begin to take advantage of the fact she is only wearing two towels. Then I look her in the eye and say "I am going to take a shower - will be back in five minutes - don't bother getting dressed".
Every once in a while I make light of the fact that she "pressured me" into having pre-marital sex". She was by no means my first partner so it is just a bit of humor. Of course it is a type of masturbation via humor because I am the only one who finds that particular observation hilarious. She quietly rolls her eyes and looks forward to our next wrestling match where she has a chance to "get even" with me for being so obnoxious.
And when I think back and remember, there were so many times where she would surprise me. There were 3 different vacations where we ended up at a secluded beach and the next thing I knew we were at full rut. And the time at the beach in waves up to our neck, where she started kissing me. And I pointed out that if she continued she would need to go to the beach first and bring a towel out to the waterline so I wouldn't be walking around in a bathing suit with a tent pole pushing it out in front. And her solution was to have sex in the water within 100 feet of a bunch of people sitting on the sand. The waves were bouncing us up and down so it wasn't totally obvious what was happening.
And then the year our youngest child turned 5, she decided to send me to work happy - every day. So we were on a two a day schedule for a year.
Ah but I ramble....
This is exactly my husband and I's story and I responded exactly as your wife did. I do remember thinking that he might be gay or something had to be wrong with him as his behavior seemed so confusing to me and I also toyed with the idea of never seeing him again as he was driving me insane with desire and confusion.
After we began having sex, the intensity and pleasure was so heightened and extreme. I had no idea men could actually fall in love prompting them to want to take it slow. I thought for sure it signified something deeply wrong with him.
I do have a question for you though...
Do you think your advice will apply when the man is not as in love or devoted and the woman does not understand or cannot figure out that sex to man is security to woman?
In other words, how many men go about sharing or expressing themselves in a way that is as loving and open to clarification as yourself or are as willing to assess and communicate with their partner to understand their partner's needs? If you're dealing with a man who has no confidence, or the opposite, a man who is over confident--you'll run into problems. The same holds true in reverse when applying to the man's wife. It seems when a marriage is troubled one or both of the spouses suffer from the above hence unwittingly create their own scenario.
T,
That is really funny that your H and I did the same thing in terms of sex in the beginning of the relationship.
I get your point about certain types of people being inherently "off". Those folks are very hard to help. I have seen so many posts on here where the poster talks about how "kissing" stopped being part of their sexual routine many years ago.
And I think - how could that possibly happen. How could someone let that happen? Would your husband even survive an encounter with you if he said:
We can have sex, but hurry it up and oh by the way you can't kiss me?
Would he survive saying EITHER of those things to you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trenton
This is exactly my husband and I's story and I responded exactly as your wife did. I do remember thinking that he might be gay or something had to be wrong with him as his behavior seemed so confusing to me and I also toyed with the idea of never seeing him again as he was driving me insane with desire and confusion.
After we began having sex, the intensity and pleasure was so heightened and extreme. I had no idea men could actually fall in love prompting them to want to take it slow. I thought for sure it signified something deeply wrong with him.
I do have a question for you though...
Do you think your advice will apply when the man is not as in love or devoted and the woman does not understand or cannot figure out that sex to man is security to woman?
In other words, how many men go about sharing or expressing themselves in a way that is as loving and open to clarification as yourself or are as willing to assess and communicate with their partner to understand their partner's needs? If you're dealing with a man who has no confidence, or the opposite, a man who is over confident--you'll run into problems. The same holds true in reverse when applying to the man's wife. It seems when a marriage is troubled one or both of the spouses suffer from the above hence unwittingly create their own scenario.
7Likes
The Path to Sexlessness 
And many were filled with anger - mine mainly. And I think my W would tell you that any type of sexual disconnect that wasn't linked to illness created a: If sex isn't a high priority - that means I am not a high priority and that shifts the tone of all our interactions. 
... might as well shoot me in the head! I am so thankful I am female!! My mom told me once that my dad used to tell her he was going to die. That would be me...if I was a guy! 
