Halien

I once heard an interesting discussion from a speaker in one of the leadership summits that my company periodically holds. Notice how many of these discussions talk about how the world perceives alphas, betas, or the results of being alpha, beta (more successful with women)? The speaker said that the way to really understand what type of person a man is can be through trying to see how he views other men. When he is in a crowded room, how does a man view the other men within the room? Within a few moments, an alpha will have sorted out a small list of other men who he considers to be his biggest challenges in the social order. He would never really admit that, though. The beta, however, will focus more on himself, and the things that he can say or do to distinguish himself among those who he comes in contact with, in order to prevent himself from coming across as dull, or disinterested.

Then, the speaker told us to raise our hands if we had already pared down a small, mental list of who the other "leaders" were in the room.

It was interesting, at least.

I only point that out because I notice that many articles talk about the results of being an alpha, or how to be "more alpha", but not too many talk about how the alpha and beta really view the world, and the differences between them. I do agree with others that these are characterizations, while it is more accurate to say that it is situational, while a man may display different traits at different times.

johnnycomelately

How do you explain the likes of Bill Gates? No-one would have called him Alpha while he was a bug-eyed, broke geek.

This reductionist approach is misleading. We are all much more complex than this. What about men who are attracted to dominant women and women who are attracted to submissive men? What about the theory that we are attracted to people who have different immunities to ours?

There is a danger that if you pretend to be someone you are not you will attract the wrong kind of person and end up miserable.

Be who you are and stop worrying about all this ridiculous nonsense.

AFEH

Even hens have a pecking order. Introduce a new hen to the mix in the coop and the order may well change.

And that’s the thing. These relationships between men aren’t static, they are dynamic. A man may be an alpha in one scenario and a beta in another, just depends who’s around him.

johnnycomelately

Absolutely. Share a prison cell with Mike Tyson and he ain't gonna be the b1tch.

Entropy3000

This is what I am talking about. He is an AMOG in his realm. Men's sex rank is not just about looks. It involves social and economic status. It is about power. Gates has power. A man who has confidence is sexy. A man can be very dominant in his realm.

Some folks can deal with information and some cannot. Knowledge is power. It is not about pretending to be someone you are not. It is understanding factors in life.

As I have said before this information is very useful to me. But then again I find all sorts of things useful. Some folks have more tools to draw from that others. Some just have a hammer. And they are happy with that so good for them.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

Entropy3000

No but in another setting he would be a simpleton and not an Alpha at all.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

johnnycomelately

Well, you lost me so I must be one of those 'folks' who can't deal with information.

Better go find that stupid hammer...

Entropy3000

It is the hand that wields the hammer that matters.

I am saying that some people can use information to their advantage that others see as useless. I see this information as valuable in dealing with people. I am very much comfortable in my own skin. Much of the inforation simply validates what I have already felt was true.

But also like much information it is open for interpretation like we are doing.

Is Mike Tyson an Alpha? Well he was when he was in the fight ring I suppose. He was when he had money. He is a celebrity now so no doubt there are women who find him attractive.

There was a study that showed that many women are not attracted to highly intelligent men. However women are attracted to intelligent men who can turn that intelligence into something tangible ... like being a well know lawyer or a CEO or someone who in general has gained power, money and status by whatever means. Often the person who profits from a break through is not the person who had the discovery. But rather the person who took the initiative and opportunity to make it theirs. Those men tend to get the play.


Anyway, I agree with you from at least one perspective. I think that the information is open for interpretation. But it is very consistent with much of what we see on this forum. Some good guy staying at home watching his kids while his wife is out playing with the boys.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

Entropy3000

Confidence is king.

Yes. A man who can adapt and learn a skillset. That is a valuable trait in survival. I think one who has that skill set is as Alpha as anyone else. maybe more so.

I do not think it has to be a choice of being Alpha or Beta or whatever. You have to have the right blend and the ability to adapt. There are times when a man needs to turn up the Alpha if a predator is near. At other times he needs to crank that down. Being too Alpha will land you in jail or at least without a job.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

Bottled Up

The Alpha/Beta ideologies hold good fundamental value, especially for generalizing purposes. However it's important to remember that every person is an individual with specific tastes and the ideologies often don't account for that.

There's plenty of "true Alpha" males out there whom I'm sure my wife might not be uncontrollably attracted to just because they are Alpha types. Because my wife is a human with intellect and specific taste, her attractions are manifest from a complexity that reaches beyond merely a primal bodily need or reaction.

One factor that zaps the "Alpha gets all the women" theory is that many women are brought up seeking a man that has beta qualities because marriage and monogamy are long-term goals that are ingrained in many family upbringings. Because we are intellects, we are products of our environments and upbringing, so our desires are very much affected by how we are raised.

We all have some basic primal drives within, but our intellect and individualism creates a complexity that in many ways skews the alpha/beta primal dynamic to the point where is simply just doesn't always apply.

Hell, I'm probably more threatened by an awesome beta coming along and swooping my wife off her feet than some pure alpha doing it.

__________________
"Love is a canvas furnished by Nature and embroidered by Imagination" -Voltaire

Entropy3000

Also what a woman sees as attractive changes during ovulation. She may be more drawn to the slightly more Beta guy most of the time but during ovulation she may be drawn to a more Alpha guy.

So a smart husband may want to use that to his advantage or not.

Like anything else this data is just that. Only some factors in a much more complex view.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

ocotillo

I think the idea is sound as a general rule, but pragmatically speaking, isn't any system of categorization that relies primarily on human perception limited by how widely human perception can vary?

Halien mentioned how men view other other men. Is that always the same as how women would view these men? When I was much younger, I attended a function where the late Carlos Hath**** was a guest speaker. Most of the men in the audience were in awe of the guy. Most of the women I know don't know who he was and would be more impressed with a man who can dance really well even if they did.

COguy

I kind of agree in the futility in categorizing everyone.

My personal take on it is learn your weaknesses and seek to improve instead of trying to mold yourself into some male stereotype one way or the other.

For example, practice not avoiding conflict, because it's a good life skill, not because it makes you more "alpha" or "attractive to the ladies."

Entropy3000

Right. So an Alpha guy who can dance in a dance club might be a real threat then.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

Entropy3000

I totally agree with this. The take away from the categorizing should not be for a man to mold himself to any of these personas.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."