Entropy3000

I have loved BTNP and Upright Rows. Doing them for very long I can attribute to injuries. As you know a persons shoulder bone structure can vary. Some folks have greater chance of impingement than others.

When I do BTNP I will only do full ROM with lighter weights. If I do them heavy I do not take them this far. Some folks do Bradford Presses instead with low weight and high reps.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

Entropy3000

First off emulating the routines of world class body builders is probably the biggest mistake that most of us have done in our lives.

That said here is something from the elite segment in bodybuilding that promotes the use of the big lifts:

Johnnie Jackson and Branch Warren are Powerbuilding

Powerbuilding -- I have not picked this one up yet but I am thinking it might be interesting reading.

Branch Warren, Ronnie Colman and Johnnie Jackson train at our local MetroFlex GYM.

These guys believe in doing heavy Deadlifts where many bodybuilders do none at all. Franco Columbu was one of those old school guys lifting heavy back in the day.

Deadlifts give a man a very thick and powerful upper body. They help in being "yoked". And yet we can look at the Deadlift as a lower body back movement. It is certainly the king of the posterior chain.

Real folks not at this level do not need the type of volume these guys do. The rest of us get a lot out of those 5 x 5s and pyramid sets with three to five movements in a session. Typically if one just stays consistent they can still make great gains doing the priority lift of the day. i.e. Doing those heavy sets of Squats and get out of the gym.

So hitting those days as Drover listed and doing only those lifts on those days would yield real results. Supplemental and accessory lifts do help but as WEndler says do not major in the minors. Get the most out of those first one or two movements of that session.

The standing Overhead Press works much of the whole body if done correctly. Yes it is an awesome builder of shoulders. But if you really give your all the days after you will feel this in your traps, your legs, upper chest and your abs as well as the shoulders. So even the muscular stabilizer and antagonist muscles get a workout. It has been said that only one in ten thousand men can Press their own weight. BTW this movement is important IMO for raw powerlifters.

The Bench Press if done correctly works the entire body to some extent. Your triceps are key here especially for locking out. The shoulders and lats get the bar off the chest. Sure you get some chest stimulus but this also stresses the lats and traps as one stabilizes for heavy weight.

The Squat has a huge hormonal impact on the body. Done correctly this is much more than a leg movement. It is a posterior chain movement. The emphasis changes as to how you perform the movement. i.e. Olympic or Powerlifter or in between. Front Squats are awesome. But heavy Back Squats demand a well trained CNS and fulle body effort.

Just these movements will stregthen ones core. I try to add in Ab Rollouts, Pallof Holds and Side Bends but the base I get from the above provide a strong base. When I use a belt for heavy Squats I am pushing out very hard on the belt. I rarely use a belt otherwise. Sometimes for Deadlift PRs. I wear the belt higher than many people do. In the old days when I did Olympic lifting the belt was much lower.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

Machiavelli

Actually, Mentzer did use Mentzer methods when he was competing, but they were much, much higher volume in sets and frequency as opposed to the "Heavy Duty" format he came up with in the 90's, like a minimum of 4 days rest between work days. His first book, from '79, has some of the stuff he was doing at that time and it would be tough to make progress on that clean, after about age 25. Mentzer found that out when he started training clients who weren't "supplementing." Mentzer could do it because he was on every anabolic known to man.

Haha. Never read that 1RM in any of his books. I don't even remember 1RM being mentioned. Maybe he said it when he was institutionalized, or doing some blue sky theorizing. Now, he did advocate in print a 7-10 rep range to momentary failure, which would probably be about 70-80% 1RM, I suppose. As for the CNS, my personal take on that is after the neuro-muscular pathways are established for a particular exercise, that's all you need to worry about. I know CNS is a big buzzword these days, but I'm not a subscriber.

As hard as I train, that would outstrip my 55 year old capacity to recover and rebuild muscle, unless I was getting "help." Even in my multi-set, not failure days, I never worked out with weights two consecutive days in my life, except in the 70's when I was doing 4 and 5 day splits. But I was at max testosterone in those days.

I never use anything heavier than 80% and often go as low as 30%, when playing with 8X8 a la Gironda, or goofing around with some of the ideas Bass talks about. More work will work, but so will less work with greater intensity. I've done both high volume, low intensity and high intensity, low volume and made and achieved good results from both, up to a point. For natural trainees, by natural I mean no AAS, you may get more out of the high intensity side of things, but everybody is not going to respond the same to the same stimulus. Each trainee needs to find his optimal dose response, but the methodology is not nearly as important as the simple doing.

Will do. Thanks for the suggestion.

Machiavelli

I guess it can be done, if you have world class genes and world class drugs. I agree about the simple compounds.

Entropy3000

Surely it can with the genes as you say, but also these guys are juicing.

BUT, my main pioint has more to do with the stage that someone is at.

Novice --> Intermediate --> Advanced --> Elite

Most of us will spend our live in the Novice / Intermediate range. Doing programs that are optimized for these levels is likely to lead to the bes training economy. A novice can make gains doing almost anything.

Advanced trainers are much closer to their genetic potential so they are required to do training sessions to inch closer to their genetic potential. Where as we would overtrain by doing those same routines which is a negative. They have already built a great base of fundamental limit strength so they can maintain this to a great amount and focus on bringing up their weaknesses. So the way they train is what they need. Yes we can learn from them of course. But the biggest lesson is how they got to where they are now, not what they do now that they have it. Many of them started out powerlifting and doing 5 x 5s for many years.

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

Entropy3000

Rows are good. Lightweight baby!!

__________________
Rectitude--Courage--Benevolence--Respect--Honesty--Honor--Loyalty
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
"Why do we fall? So we might learn to pick ourselves up."
"It’s not who we are underneath, but what we do that defines us."

Caribbean Man

Excellent post.
I can do BTN presses very heavy and I don't get any impingement! I just don't go right down,I stop middway behind my head.
Funny thing is,that I got my rotator cuff slightly damaged long before I started BTN presses. I was doing bench presses [ gillotine press] to the neck...
My shoulder structure is such that my anterior delt is very dominant and strong. Median and prosterior are also strong.
Bradford presses are uncomfortable for me.

__________________
“....And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music....”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Caribbean Man

This was one of my early mistakes. I followed some of those routines in those bodybuilding magazines like Flex etc.

__________________
“....And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music....”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Machiavelli

Since about 65, all those magazine routines assume you're using "supplements" and I don't mean the ones advertised in the magazine. Plus, a lot of those routines were bogus in the sense that the bodybuilder/author never saw a word of those articles unless they happened to look at the mag after it came out.

Machiavelli

Aside from muscle/tendon ratios, testosterone levels pretty much rule on how much muscle mass you can build, repair, and maintain. I would say that anyone who has been lifting consistently for 3 years, has probably achieved about 85% of what they're ever going to be able to do. At that point, they have to decide whether or not to raise testosterone via exogenous sources. Aside from anabolics, eating is a huge issue. People have no concept about how much is actually required to be eaten when trying to grow muscle. I always emphasize to young men that they must eat 4,000 - 4,500 cals daily to get any mass. Those who don't eat, don't grow.

This could well be true for the current crop of freaks. I haven't paid much attention since the 1980 Olympia debacle, which pretty much proved competitive bodybuilding was less honest than pro "rasslin'". Although, they do use many of the same suppliers.

Machiavelli

Yes, they are. Plus, that guy is ALL NATURAL!

effess

Just wanted everyone to know that I started today!!
I'm fighting a bit of a stomach bug so the eating thing has been uncomfortable, but I today is day 1 to a new me!!!
Thanks everyone for the tips, answers and suggestions. I've on-boarded alot that I've read here and welcome all the advice and motivation that can be provided.

Thanks again and I'll be visiting this thread often for new suggestions and with my own updates.

Caribbean Man

"Everybody wants to get big,but aint nobody want to lift no heavy a$$ irons.." - Ronnie Coleman

" Light Weight Baby "- Ronnie Coleman

__________________
“....And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music....”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Caribbean Man

Best wishes,and remember persistence does it.
Keep walking.

__________________
“....And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music....”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Drover

Haha...I think EVERYONE starts that way.