Well, I have been manhandled with the fitness tests so far these past couple days and it has seemed to create some deep anxiety for my wife and has pushed her away to whole thing:
Ok, so Saturday woke and went running for the first time in whatever. Wife had been staying at her Dad's to finish all the laundry. Went over and we all went to the baseball game in the evening. On the way home, the plan was to drop me off for the night and then I would pick her and the children up on Sunday to come back to the house and we would barbecue and run errands.
I then asked "what time do you want to be there", and she just said "as early as possible." I then said, so you don't have a specific time." She then replied "As early as possible." So I got home and then decided that I would get up around 8am, go do my running again, then get ready and leave close to 10am.
So I follow my plan in the morning on Sunday, I called her at 9:45 to check to make sure there was nothing I had to bring over. She called a little after 10am and said no, so then I went over to pick her up.
I arrived and she had not finished showering, so I immediately checked to see if there was anything I could pile in the car, which I did. By the time she was finished showering and ready to go, it was about 11 and she said she was starving.
We had to go to the phone store, so we stopped at Subway so she could sit and eat lunch. Then to the store only to find out we would have to come back later to pick up the phones.
Then we went to the grocery store so she could get stuff to make a meal for her dad on Father's Day. Also she promised him to record some program on TV at 1:00pm, so after the store we had to go pick up DVD-R's and then rush back home.
By the time we got home, she was in a pissy mood. Apparently she wanted me to be there at her Dad's much earlier because she had gotten up at 7:30am to finish the laundry and to take care of the child. She didn't have a chance to get into the shower because of that and it put us behind for the whole day. It was 1:00pm and we had basically missed the taping of the show. I said I could find it online and download a copy for him, which I did.
Also, I was supposed to have leftovers when I got home from work on Friday night. I didn't really want the ones we had, so I made a sandwich and soup for the evening. When we got home, my wife saw that I had not eaten the leftovers and got angry and threw out the leftovers because she said they were bad. I stated to her, if you had let me known they were going to be thrown out, I probably would have eaten them.
She then started getting upset over how I took my time and doing my own thing while she had to take care of everything else. I specifically stated that I asked her what time to be there and she just retorted that I should have been aware of things that had to be done and known to get there early enough to help out to finish the laundry.
Then she made some kind of comment that she thinks we should plan to separate after this week. I calmly told her this is all nonsense and that there is no reason to get so upset. We got everything done and all we have to do is put away the laundry and make the food for dinner. I asked if I could help her with the food and she said no, so I said I would start putting away all the clothes.
It seemed she felt okay by then, so she started preparing dinner. By the evening, her dad came over and I barbecued the prepped food while she finished the rest of the food. My wife had made muffins to have with dinner (packaged, not homemade). I said I didn't want one, to which she insisted that I did. She started making remarks over how much I don't like her plans for dinner because I didn't take muffin. I brushed it off, knowing that was just a sarcastic joke to her to get me to get upset over nothing.
Then later in the evening after her Dad had left, we were watching TV and she started to write one of her blogs. I then decided to turn on a movie. As I started it, she said, "Oh, so you aren't going to let me know what to watch." I said, "I'm sorry I thought you were writing your blog, did you have something in mind?" She then just said, whatever and I turned it on. She then asked if I could turn it down a little, which I did. After about ten minutes, she stormed out of the living room and slammed the door. I ignored it and went onto watching the movie.
Five minutes after that, she came out making remarks how she was going to be hunched over uncomfortably writing on the bed while I watched my loud movie and how I didn't respond to her walking away to check if anything was wrong. I started stating that I did lower the volume and that I would have lowered it more if she had said something. She then started talking about how I should be more attentive and knowing of her needs. I said I want us to communicate better and be clear about things. Then she started saying how much she didn't like these drastic changes I was making and that she was having hard time dealing with it on top of the all stress she feels is in our relationship.
Basically we then talked for several hours over all the problems we have been dealing with. She doesn't seem to be able to trust me anymore and by the time the evening was over, I asked if she could try to feel better about things and just move on so we can make our lives better. Unfortunately, she didn't have any clear answers and she didn't know if she wanted to stay or leave.
Monday, it just didn't get better. I wanted to try to fit my run in again and so I was trying to talk to her about the day's plans and she just couldn't handle me wanting to do my own thing while I was on vacation. She started getting upset over the fact that I was being too positive in myself and not caring about her needs. It got the worst when I went to get my haircut and decided to leave it a little long. By the time we got home, she had felt sick and asked that I take her back to her Dad's.
So here I am now, on vacation and dealing again with all of these issues. I keep wondering if I took the NMMNG approach to far, but I have tried so hard this weekend to be aware of her and to make her feel good about things. Basically, she just feels so untrustful of me and doesn't think that I will ever come to terms with loving her and agreeing to make things work and make her happy again.
Well, she just wrote a long email to me, so I will post it here to see if there is any insight people can offer for what's happened. It's unabridged so that you can all see her side and how she feels.
Also, if there is any misunderstanding of what she's talking about, you can ask me or search my other threads to see what I have been dealing with:
"I just want to be clear with you about a few things:
I am not trying to go over and over again in circles over everything that has happened in the last few years. I am not trying to punish anyone for anything that has happened either. I am, however, saying that what has happened in the last few years is what is making things so difficult for me to just accept and move on now - especially when you appear to have come of this idea completely out of nowhere.
I also am reacting to the fact that you have taken this "I am better than this" "I am moving on past this" "Don't lower me to this" stance before. I know that a lot of your jumpiness, shaking your legs, tapping your hands everywhere, constantly playing music, inability to settle down and just relax is about just cycling back into the "distanced and neglectful (me)" way of dealing with things. I'm not suggesting that having a positive attitude is bad. I'm suggesting that you are taking it too far and have done so far too drastically.
I also believe that you are missing a very big point: regardless of whether something is "practical" or not, being in love never will be. If you are really in love with me, practicality should not be an issue and should not come between you having what you love the most.
Suggesting that I move to Chicago with the girls and get a job until you get a job out there is just as unrealistic as suggesting that we just pack everything up and leave here. So is suggesting that I go back to school.
In the event of me just going to Chicago, you are not considering (1) how we would afford the costs of living of two separate households (2) who would care for the girls while I work full time ... (yes, I would have more family around to help, but they are not going to do that full time) and (3) how we would do such a thing when our relationship is on such shaky foundation as is. Long distance working things out like that is hard for even the most solid of couples.
In the event that I just applied to graduate programs elsewhere, we would be confronted with many of the same issues. Beyond that, though, would be how to pay for graduate school, which would have some to do with loans. I also have no interest in going back to school. Honestly, I have spent a long time coming to terms with the fact that my intellectual life in academia was over and I am over that. I don't have any interest in that now, especially after two years have passed with me being "out."
Suggesting that I get a job here is just as stupid as suggesting that you work two jobs. There is no one who can care for the girls full time, and it also does not deal with the huge thing glaring us in the face: I did not work for 10 years to get to where I did just to wind up working in something I am not interested in a few years later. I worked that hard so that I DIDN'T have to work in something I was uninterested - retail pharmacy and politics (at the time). This will not resolve the happiness problem. And quite frankly it is just unfair.
Yes, many of the ways that I let my stress impact me personally are my own issues. That I would let myself be so stressed out that I would make myself sick to my stomach is just stupid. You are right, I sit there and just overthink everything and overthing it more and then think it over again. But that all of this is stressing me out - that very fact - is definitely a result of your actions.
In a normal relationship, there would be no lying, no secrets, no "I'm moving on and doing my own thing" ... there would be us. Haven't you ever heard the old saying "I don't care what I have as long as I have you"? I feel like you have never adopted that feeling. This is my point when I say that you would not just pack up and follow me. Of course I am not just going to pack up and drive away - I have no idea how that would even work. But I feel like doing it most days now and that I feel that way is a sign of just how enormous all of this nonsense is at this point. I feel that you are not in love with me. Maybe you love me or you feel some obligation towards me finally, but at a certain point you have basically thrown up your hands and said "I don't want to deal with it" or "I'm not going to let it affect me." It is actually a little insulting to me when you say you don't want to have a multiple hour conversation with me about fixing us; or when the whole time we are talking you look like you are on the verge of just walking out of the room. I'm not saying we should just keep going in circles; I'm saying you shouldn't be trying to run away from them or perhaps run away from me.
When I say I need a show of faith at this point to know that I can trust you, I'm saying that this has to predate any resolutions to all life's problems. When I say I don't want to have to tell you it's because you should have some active participation in building back the trust. Our foundation is completely broken and before we even get muddied down in anything like "fix this" or "fix that" we have to have that trust. Sadly, I get muddied in those things myself because I continue to believe that only fixing things will restore the trust; but the trust has to be there to fix things. This is where I talk in circles or reason in circles; and this really is why I feel so much stress - because we're damned if we do, damned if we don't in my mind.
Also my stress stems from knowing what you said to me when I returned home, and have reiterated over and over again in different ways: you don't give a **** if our marriage comes to an end. Maybe you care a little, but you tell yourself you'll get over it. You'll **** around on your phone, go for runs all day if you have to, lose yourself in the news on your computer and anything else you have to do to distract yourself from what has happened. If for five minutes you just stopped moving - stopped with the email, the phone, the texting, the TV, the movies, the running, the "getting things done" and were actually just present - present where you weren't there but still trying to rush the conversation or rush off to do something else or telling everyone what you want to "get in" before the end of the day, I think maybe everything would calm down a little and we could deal with this. Sadly, you seem to be back to trying to be "away" as much as possible so that you don't have to confront the issues. Is that your way of not having to admit again that you don't give a **** if our marriage ends? Or is that your way of dealing with someone you aren't really in love with?
Above all, if at some point you said that you would say **** IT to everything and just pack up and drive away - with no idea where we were going, but as long as we were together - I would probably calm down a huge notch. But you can't say that because you wouldn't do it. Like you said when I got home - as long as it is practical or doesn't come in the way with what is most important, what you love most - you.
I guess we are just going to sleep here tonight and come home tomorrow morning. Hope you've been able to get in all the runs, the emails, the texting, the movies, the TV shows, and every other distraction you can by then."
After about ten minutes, she stormed out of the living room and slammed the door. I ignored it and went onto watching the movie.
Five minutes after that, she came out making remarks how she was going to be hunched over uncomfortably writing on the bed while I watched my loud movie and how I didn't respond to her walking away to check if anything was wrong.
And here, my friend, is the key to your dysfunctional marriage. She has a severe need to be stroked, to be told she rocks your world, and that you would jump hoops for her. She went into her room JUST SO you could follow her and stroke her ego.
Anything short of that - day in day out - is just not good enough for her supersized lack of self esteem.
And add that to her mismatched, 6-year-old methods for getting what she wants, well, she has a LOT of personal work to do before she could ever be a good healthy wife.
I'm on my 2nd read, this time doing the exercises on paper and taking more time on them.
My story started back in December when I unloaded on my wife about how unhappy I was and how she wasn't doing enough to meet my 'wants and needs' in bed or life.
I joined, told my story, built a fantasy about why she didn't want to sex me up.. all that fun stuff nice guys go through until then blow a seal one day and hurt the one they love the most.
Forward to three weeks ago when my depression hit a personal bottom. I hurt her really good this time and decided that's enough. This **** has to stop now! You have put her through enough, fix YOU!
The next morning she tagged me in a facebook quote picture, the first time she has ever made any light of our matter in any public sense.
It was a reminder of what she told me all those months ago in the car that day... fine, just work on you and it'll all work out.
I ordered the NMMRNG that morning, got her kindle and bought a codependency book and started reading. I felt my entire life's paradigm shatter in the first 50 pages. By the time I hit page 100 I was already into the new me mode. I could feel the change almost immediately.
When NMMRNG showed up.. I made a comment to my wife about a new book and a new me was on the way. That guy who hurt you the other night, he's gone now. Told her it was time for me to change. From that moment I shed my nice guy armor (it's still in the closet and will be thrown out after I confront my father for he was the craftsman and I want him to see what it's done to my life) and stood like a man. A man who wanted to be more dominant and assertive in his life to get more of what he wanted.
That night I cooked a nice meal, put the kids down early and entered my wife's space.. our bedroom. Took the kindle from her hands and with no foreplay, a little spit to get things going I Man handled her to 3 powerful orgasms in numerous male dominant positions before I sprayed her front side with the most glorious pearl necklace she's ever gotten. I didn't care if she was into it or not, didn't care if she just laid there, all I cared about was doing what made ME feel good.
I took back my sexual power that night and made it clear to her, If I want to have sex with you, I will. I will never ask again, I will inform you before hand of my desire or I will just take you when I see fit. All you have to do is cum, and that's up to you.
From that night our sex life has gone from every few weeks/months to every couple of days. My sexual anxiety is gone, I last much longer and are having the sex I want to have.
The other night she dropped some in-bed hints that for a second I had to remember what she was doing.. oh yeah! that's her signal for the playing field is open, cum in! Then I found the kitty had been to the cleaners for a brazillian and that made my inner lion come out to play. It was 90 minutes of some of the most passionate sex we've had in years. It took her a few hours to wind down and get to sleep after that. The next day she told me she was mad at me for keeping her up late.. I walked up to her and put my hand on the back of her neck and pulled her towards me, gave her a hard kiss and said it was worth it though right.. as I gave her a slight push/let go away from me. The look in her eyes as she bit the corner of her lower lip told me she can't wait till next time.
The book, and other self help books, are working for me and I'm not telling her what I'm doing unless she asks me. She's asked a few questions and has noticed a change and currently likes it. When asked how she likes the change and what the path could possibly lead to, she's undecided yet and I'm OK with that.
She doesn't seem to be able to trust me anymore and by the time the evening was over, I asked if she could try to feel better about things and just move on so we can make our lives better. Unfortunately, she didn't have any clear answers and she didn't know if she wanted to stay or leave.
Here's what you did wrong. She said the standard spouse of Nice Guy speech - "I don't think I can trust you." Meaneater-speak for "What are you going to give me to make it worth my time to grace you with my presence?" Nice Guy says "Can you try to feel better about things?" - meaning what can I do to get you to choose me? NON-Nice Guy says "Well, that's up to you; I can't make you feel anything. All I can do is tell you what I would like to see and then wait and see if we share the same vision. You let me know, ok?"
It got the worst when I went to get my haircut and decided to leave it a little long. By the time we got home, she had felt sick and asked that I take her back to her Dad's.
You realize, right, that 'take me home' is STANDARD spouse of Nice Guy for "you stopped stroking my ego so I'm going to punish you by removing myself from your presence"?
How do you deal with 'take me home'?
By refusing to play the game.
Oh, ok, hon, sorry you feel bad. I'll drop you off and then meet up with Joe and Dave while you sleep.
I don't know if there is anything else I will be able to do about it at this point. The moment I started pushing back, it's got her to feel completely defenseless again that she literally started to shut down completely again.
I have found out a couple more things about her past these last several months and I have tried so hard to be understanding, but I feel also that it gives the validity to feel like she is needed and she just uses those things against me to wear me down.
Her therapist is just not going to be helping anymore. Every time, he says she just has to pack up and leave but she has no strength or will to do anything for herself.
Do you think I should do a 180 and not contact her now at this point until she reaches out to me?
She posed to me before I dropped her off that she wanted answer from me on how I could build her trust back and work on things. She wanted me to call her back tomorrow morning after I had done some thinking.
I feel like I'm being punished and force to stand in the corner and think about what I've done to turn around and make things right
So here I am now, on vacation and dealing again with all of these issues. I keep wondering if I took the NMMNG approach to far, but I have tried so hard this weekend to be aware of her and to make her feel good about things.
I take it back. There's MORE you did wrong. In fact, you don't even seem to understand what NMMNG means. It means that, when she gives you the sh*t tests, YOU DON'T PLAY THE GAME.
NMMNG means she can play all her little games she wants, but you have too much dignity to kiss up to her. Will she be mad? Of course. Until she realizes she can't whip you back in shape. But you won't care because you will no longer be a Nice Guy.
NON-Nice Guy says "Well, that's up to you; I can't make you feel anything. All I can do is tell you what I would like to see and then wait and see if we share the same vision. You let me know, ok?"
Actually, I am pretty sure I communicated almost exactly those words during our arguement last night. Translation to her: "I don't love her anymore and not willing anything to fight for it."
You realize, right, that 'take me home' is STANDARD spouse of Nice Guy for "you stopped stroking my ego so I'm going to punish you by removing myself from your presence"?
How do you deal with 'take me home'?
By refusing to play the game.
Oh, ok, hon, sorry you feel bad. I'll drop you off and then meet up with Joe and Dave while you sleep.
See the difference?
It would seem that this wife has more problems then our recovering nice guy. Stand your ground bro, stand your ground and don't play her game.
njp, all I can after reading her email is...what a *****. I'm sorry, I know you love her, but what a *****. She apparently is SO used to having the world revolve around her that when you stop, she pulls out the Change Back! behavior IN SPADES.
I could tear her letter apart in pieces, but suffice it to say she will likely NEVER ever really feel for you; it will only be in terms of what you can do for HER.
And please notice all the references she made to how love should just 'be'; you shouldn't have to work on it; if you won't follow me, you don't really love me...Do you see how it's all about feelings? Not hard work or being introspective or admitting your own faults? By saying that you only believe in true love lets you off the hook for owning your own behavior: if you really loved me, you wouldn't ever call me out on my behavior. Very freeing, actually. In a narcissistic kind of way.
Just because it's not making things better with your W doesn't mean you're not doing it right. If things are unfixable, she won't respond well to your move away from being a NG. Even if there's hope for you two, it might take a lot of time and effort on her part to deal with things in a healthy way. The only way you're going to find out whether there's anything left to your relationship is to stay on the path of fixing your end of things. Keep up the good work. Posted via Mobile Device
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Re: No More Mr. Nice Guy: The Support Thread 
